ST Ben & Han: What was said v. what was heard...

Wow. Great original post. I totally agree with everything you observed, and your analysis is well thought out.

To those of you who react incredulous to the assertion that Han failed as a father...

The original post never tries to take the responsibility off of Ben and put all the blame on Han. That's not the point at all. Of course Ben made his own decisions. He was already a murderer, probably a mass murderer, at this point. Granted, we have not been made privy to the backstory yet. We don't know if Han was a great dad, or if he was a terrible dad, or somewhere in between. But in my opinion, knowing Han's character, and having seen where he winds up, it is more than reasonable, and far more dramatic and interesting, to assume he made some mistakes. The fact that he had already given up on his son at this point reflected pretty badly on him. "He's got too much Vader in him" is a definitive statement that reveals a father who has written his son off as evil. Leia feels the need to convince him that his role as father is an important one, and from her vantage point, she obviously feels that Han is not doing enough to win Ben back.

With all due respect to George and the Han shot first revisionist history, Han Solo was not meant to be a white knight in shining armor. He is the flawed hero. And what makes him the greatest character of all time, in my opinion, is the fact that he is deeply flawed, constantly torn between the light and the dark, much like his son.

Ben is responsible for Ben, while at the same time, Han could've been a bad dad. In fact, the whole situation is very comparable to Obi Wan and Anakin. Was it Obi Wan's fault that Anakin turned bad? Well, Obi Wan did make some bad mistakes that he, in fact, sadly admitted to in the end. Han is my favorite character of all time, but he wasn't as wise as Obi Wan in that respect.

 

We have what we saw in the film and what is speculated about relative to how good a parent Han was. What we saw in the film was Snoke's influence and challenge to Kylo, and Han's effort to get Kylo to come home and his assurance that they missed him. Han is Han, but then Han always was Han and Kylo / Ben knew his father and his mannerisms and ways. A child knows their parents and who they are and how they are. For me, the movie trumps all else.

 

Unfortunately Bloodline is already a retconned story that doesn't fit with what was intended in TFA. Horribly disconnected.

The old E.U. ran on for decades with barely a single contradiction of meaningful proportion. The new Disney couldn't survive one year without re-writing itself. Shame.

 

I don't have a lot of direct experience with the EU, I but I don't believe that for a second. For one, it defies common sense that dozens of different authors could write decades of material without any major contradictions. I wouldn't believe it even if it were all by a single author. And two, I've heard of contradictions in the EU. For example, this video, talking about the Jedi, states that: "This writing process [for the EU] was haphazard and unguided. . . . This material is full of a lot of contradictions in how strict or lose the Jedi are depicted. . ." And then, in a fact I find kinda amusing: "Becoming Jedi was alternately a life-long, all-consuming pursuit, or about on par with getting a law degree." Sounds like a big contradiction to me.

 

In what way? Can you explain this?

 

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo 16 de mai
@megancyber1 The timeline of Bloodline was set during TFA's production. It was informed by the TFA backstory developed by the production.

 

I feel like Finn, Rey and Kylo all come from a similar place. Rey was dumped on a desert planet by [presumably] her parents, and had to scratch out a living trading salvage for food.

She had every reason to be angry and selfish, but she wasn't. She was a hopeful, good person.

Finn was taken away from his family and raised to be a soldier in an authoritarian regime. He likely should have been an indoctrinated killing machine, but he never succumbed. He had a conscience and was brave enough to risk death to flee the F.O.

Kylo Ren, presumably dealt with feelings of abandonment. He got sent away to train with Luke. He voices his contempt for his father as being a disappointment as a father. And he, for as of yet unknown reasons, decides that Snoke is a worthy mentor and is willing to betray friends and family for him.

Given what Rey and Finn have gone through and how they end up, I don't think you can blame Leia and Han for anything.

I think the similarity between Rey and Kylo will pay off in later installments. In that one felt abandoned and fell to Darkness, while the other WAS abandoned and remains hopeful/optimistic. She sees Han as a worthy father figure, while Kylo feels anger towards him.

I feel the scene on the bridge caused conflict in that his Father was offering him to opportunity to have what he always wanted. He could come home to his parents who missed him despite
what he had done. And Han's actions show that even in death, he loved Kylo despite being killed by his hand.

As far as Han preserving Ben's light. I'm not so sure. Vader killed Padme (or so he believed) and despite being angry at himself for it, it just drove him to further
deny his identity as Anakin Skywalker.

Kylo Ren may have felt saddened by the fact that he destroyed his opportunity to be with his dad, but at the same time, he is paving the way for Snoke to destroy Ben and leave only Kylo Ren.

Vader had Luke to bring him back to the light. Ben still has his mom and uncle, but it's already been established that Luke failed to reach him.





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I'm not so sure. Kylo Ren's thanking Han for "helping" him seemed genuine (as in he wanted to kill his father and commit to the dark side). Granted, all sources say that Kylo was weakened by the murder, but pretty much everything he does after that seems to indicate that he's firmly on the side of the First Order. The new movies could pull a surprise, but I think that TFA was meant to be the turning point where he could go back and he soundly rejected it. (Remember, the people working on the movies have said that Kylo Ren's story is that of the character becoming a villain, a scenario where a redemption story wouldn't fit very well, in my opinion.)

 

IMO, people are reading too much into the "it weakened him" thing. He had regret. He was conflicted, he obviously cared about his Father on some level, despite what he says, and after killing him he feels regret for a moment as whatever light within him makes him feel bad. He knows what he did was bad, but he's doing it to prove himself to Snoke.

We see this in Anakin too. He had tears in his eyes on Mustafar after slaughtering the CIS leaders. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he did it because in his mind he had to in order to save Padme. When he is told he killed Padme, he regrets it. But Padme's death is also what severs his ties to the light side, at least until Luke shows up. Vader went on to become a very different man after killing (or believing he killed) Padme, whereas had she lived, he probably never would have shed the identity of "Anakin Skywalker" and he may have been redeemed far sooner.

Han's death I do not in any way preserves Kylo's "light." Quite the opposite. It's helping him shed the identity of Ben Solo. He is eliminating the links to the good man that I assume I'm supposed to believe he once was.

Ben Solo might feel regret and "weak" for killing Han, and it caused him to let his guard down enough for Chewbacca to shoot him, but at the end of the day, it paves the way for Kylo Ren to break his bond to the light side, and Snoke will finish his training because of it. Minutes after killing Han, Kylo Ren looks completely on board with the Dark Side. He even talks of his father in saying "Han Solo" can no longer help Rey and Finn. He is cold and disrespectful of the Father he just murdered. Yeah, it was difficult for him. But he did it to show his devotion to the Dark Side and whatever conflict he showed in killing Han quickly gets dismissed after being shot and then looking up at Finn and Rey. Snoke is going to reward him for passing the "test," and Snoke's last line in the film implies that the next time we see Kylo Ren, he is going to be much stronger, not weaker.