ST Ben Solo was saved by a touch of his Father's Hand

I don't think that Han has 'saved' Ben. The best part of that scene was that it was the birth of a completed Kylo Ren, Han's death sealed his fate.

But that touch will resonate - and will certainly hold the key to where Kylo ends up in this story.

That moment when Han touched Kylo's face will haunt what's left of Ben Solo for the rest of the series. It will become even more poignant if he ever gets in a room with his mother. We already know she was the driving force behind trying to 'save' Ben. Han clearly had his doubts. But he still had to try.

Imagine what a tragic moment it would be Leia was there holding Ben's hand while Kylo dies - or even if she was the one to end his life. So many epic possibilities.

 

Wow. Leia having to kill her own son in a lightsaber duel! [Shivers]

 

What bothers me about viewing that scene as Kylo Ren succeeding as being completed is that he was a much weaker villain from that moment onward in this episode. Granted, Chewie shot him, but how was Chewie able to shoot him? A completed Kylo Ren senses and stops the shot, heck probably sends it back to kill Chewie. And doesn't the physical injury to him seem like a weak reason for a character who was stronger than ever in the dark side to be so easily handled when the protagonist reaches inside and uses the light?

I see him as not being fulfilled in his journey to the dark that he hoped his act would attain. And I can only see one reason for it. That reason is forgiveness.

 

I definitely that they have to talk about/acknowledge the gravity of Han Solo's gesture in the future movies. Most logically it would be Ben himself who realizes that his father never gave up on him, even after he killed him. Whether that will pull him out of the darkness, remains to be seen, but I think it will be powerful.

 

My meaning is that the process of wavering is over. Ben can go with his father, while Kylo stays with Snoke. Killing Han simply 'completes' the process of committing to the DS. He still has to complete his training. There is much ahead of him before he reaches his potential.

The question now is whether that is really true or whether Kylo simply wishes it to be true.

I'm not convinced even Han's death succeeded in removing all doubt.

 

That's just what I was saying on the last page. Not only has doubt not been removed, Han's final gesture of love for Ben even as Han was dying planted the Light even deeper. Kylo Ren can never really be as dark side as he wants because Han "pre-saved" him. Ben's previous struggle with the Light was nothing compared to what he is facing now.

 

Killing Han just messed Kylo up more. He didn't become the cold, clinical killer he hoped to be.

 

Looks like that one final loving touch by his father caused Kylo / Ben to become even more conflicted than ever... And most likely left that one bit of the Light Side in him that will never be removed, no matter how far Kylo's training takes him - which may lead to a potential redemption for Kylo, even if in tragic circumstances, when Episode 9 comes around!

 

Kylo really did love his father but he felt he had to kill him to please Snoke and strengthen his position in the First Order. I consider him a light sider trying to be dark.

 

Agreed, Ben Solo is a good person but appears maybe somewhat brainwashed at this point. Like someone indoctrinated into a cult that he believes MUST be the right way because the charismatic leader would never lie to him...and yet...there is the doubt too, the call to return to normal life and family. But he's just heard too much from Snoke, too many promises. That moment on the bridge with Han is the most haunting movie scene I have watched in a long, long, time.

 

Wow, that's a wonderful analysis, and it does explain why that moment when they were both holding the sabre seemed to go on for ever.

The whole scene was incredibly ambiguous. The first time I saw it, I too thought Han was being manipulated, but on subsequent viewings I didn't at all - I was much more aware of Kylo/Ben's anguish and how he seemed to be asking Han for something that Han couldn't work out or couldn't bring himself to do.

I was also a bit puzzled as to how the sabre got into position for the fatal shot. It was sideways on between Han and KR, and if it had been activated in that position, the two cross-beams would have gone through both men. Clearly it was facing towards Han when it activated, so something changed that we didn't see. Presumably Han would have known it was facing towards him?

Perhaps he DID kill himself?

 

Han's touch of Ben's face was a beautiful moment but not redeeming. I am in the camp that thinks Ben was really on the fence in that scene. All his professed torment came off real to me. But killing his Dad was the final obstacle to quashing the light in him.

In Ep 8 he'll get his training completed, a new saber and be full on evil.

 

With the force awakening and all, Kylo might be able to find a way to communicate with Han.

 

Yeah. It's ironic given who he used to be, but Han is literally the Jesus figure in this scene. Brutally murdered...but despite it, instantly forgiving and loving, no hatred or malice in him. That threw Kylo off. I think for the first time, he saw who his father really was.

 

Han isn't Force sensitive so he wasn't able to commune with the force to leave behind a force ghost so there is no way for him to talk to his now dead father.

Also guys I doubt very seriously he is going to have any time to dwell on Han, He is going back to his dark master for MORE TRAINING! He wasn't a Dark Lord Yet because he didn't complete basic training yet! He is now going to finish along side the rest of the knights of ren to become more powerful in the dark side of the force.

Han's last act may echo in his mind later down the line but I very Much doubt he is going to have much impact on his son till his death, where he reflects on his choices and maybe regrets some or maybe he curses his father till his dying breath?

That would be equally tragic and heartbreaking, That even after Hans show of love, till the very end he didn't show the same love back to his father.

 

Agreed. The story in TFA has no point if Kylo is just a victim of his terrible dad and this is really his hero journey. That's besides the fact that that isn't what was shown in the movie even a little bit, lol. Going dark side has never been presented in the gffa as something the character holds no direct responsibility for. Kylo Ren made a conscious choice on his own to do the things he did. He is the only one responsible for his choices. That is why the topic of redemption is so difficult.

For redemption, Kylo doesn't have to beat his brainwasher and overcome his messed up dad's influence. He has to beat his own desire to be dark, and as we have seen, that desire in Kylo Ren is extremely prevalent. So prevalent, in fact, that he murdered his father by choice and didn't even have the heart to sit with him while he died. My understanding of the Jacen Solo story is that Jacen sat with Mara Jade while she died as he rationalized her death as being necessary for the greater good. Then, he had to be tricked into battling his sister and as she killed him he chose not to kill her.

I feel like it was absolutely intentionally dark in an unprecedented way that Kylo Ren was written to do what even Vader couldn't do, and he did it in a way that even Jacen Solo wasn't portrayed to be. Kylo Ren wasn't manipulated to kill his father. He chose to do it, while weighing his options. The weight of that choice has huge bearing on his ability to be redeemed. If he is ever redeemed and he survives the process, the SW heroes would be fools to ever trust him.

To the bolded, Kylo Ren isn't a boy, unstable or otherwise. He is a fully grown man. I understand why people would be confused on that point because he was portrayed with some boy-like traits, but nonetheless he is a man. As a man, he is the only one responsible for his choices.

The movie provided context for us to draw conclusions from as well. We don't have to assume that Han deserved his son to become a homicidal maniac and it's his fault. We know from the movie and supporting materials that Han settled down with his family and he loved them. Nothing even in Kylo Ren's dialogue indicates that Han failed to do "something affirmative" or always wavered with little/no gusto. Kylo Ren said that Han is a disappointment and weak and foolish, like "Ben" was. Interesting that Kylo Ren actually describes himself and Han using the same terminology. That doesn't leave an impression of Han being distant and unpresent as a father. That actually leaves the impression that Han and "Ben" were a lot alike, and I would further guess that they were close. The deleted scene of Kylo Ren getting sentimental in the MF would back that up. In the end, Ben decided (chose, of his own free will) that he wanted to change and he rejected his father's influence. We know growing up that Kylo wasn't sent to Luke to train his force abilities. Perhaps Han wanted him to have a normal life, as we know from Han's character that he isn't into all that "mumbo jumbo." In the end, nudged along by Snoke, maybe teenage Kylo just decided that his father was holding him back.

 

AhsokaSolo
he is an unstable manchild. you can go on about it all you like, but he doesn't strike me as someone who is mature. maturity isn't just in age, it's also in your bearing. there is very little in kylo ren's bearing that makes me suspect maturity.

it's fine re: accountability and choosing to be there, but he strikes me as an adolescent. people have picked that up massively with the whole emo ben solo thing, so it isn't just me. it doesn't mean that he isn't responsible for what he does, it just means there is something really off about a grown man behaving in this manner.

 

I agree with you that he's immature. I have called him immature many times. That doesn't absolve him of his adult responsibility in any way, shape or form unless they are actually going for some kind of mental illness angle or something... And I'm pretty sure they're not. Sometimes adults are just immature.

Personally I think they did it to show his growth over the trilogy. I expect him to be much more controlled and stable in the next movie. He made his choice and we are going to see him begin to live like it with confidence.

 

well, yes, adults can be unstable, but he is hella unstable, that's all. like a kind of poster child of unstable. that's what's off. he's already supposed to be 30 years old or something, how on earth has he got to that point in his life like that.

i think he's been enabled massively. and 'completing his training' doesn't fill me with confidence at all.

 

Well, as Snoke said, he never faced a test like the one he faced in TFA. And by Snoke's standards, no doubt Ren passed the test with flying colors.

 

i think he utterly failed the test. by his own standards and by snoke's i'm not sure.

 

I think Kylo will forever be the wannabe tough-guy. He'll go out of his way to be Evil, which is where he will contrast Vader. Vader did it out of love for Padme, I don't think he ever enjoyed being the man he became (the tear after he kills the separatists on Mustafar shows this). For this reason, I think there will be no redemption for him, but there was definitely a moment where Ben emerged I think.

 

We know he passed by Snoke's standards. The was the point of Snoke ordering Hux to bring Kylo to him to complete his training.

 

It's interesting watching this thread twist and turn around the same themes you see discussed in many religions. But being the religion of the Star Wars Galaxy its appropriate as well.

My own personal opinion is that Kylo is still absolutely responsible for his actions. Snoke shares blame in creating Kylo Ren, but Kylo did the deed. Han's act did not redeem Kylo. I'm saying that Han's act gives Kylo a sliver of hope for redemption. It kindled that last tiny spark of Ben Solo inside of Kylo Ren. Without Han's act, Kylo would have been full dark, the character would have no desire for any kind of redemption. Ben Solo would be no more. And that was Kylo's plan. He no longer wanted to feel "the pull to the light". Ben Solo is "the pull to the light".

Kylo succeeded in his plan of killing Han, but Han spoiled the elimination of the pull to the light, and may have ever so slightly increased the pull.

I know I'm sounding repetitive here, but I want to be clear that in the title "Ben Solo was saved", I don't mean that Han took the responsibility for the act away from Kylo, I mean that Han's touch put "the pull to the light" back inside of him. And it damaged Kylo. Han Solo saved "the pull to the light".

Did anyone get a sense that Kylo walked away from the bridge a conqueror of his pull to the light after his father's act?

 

What did you think the test was about? I am not following the fail part as to me, his test was kill pops. If you want to say did he get the result he expected, that seems to be no.