ST Ben Solo was saved by a touch of his Father's Hand

well... i don't know if i can make this clear even to myself so forgive me if i'm waffling.

i think the test is to show commitment to the dark side. he's been able to sort of hide behind the mask and do stuff but i think he could have wriggled out of much of it. (i know people disagree on this, but those were the times adn he does what he does kinda thing). this time it's personal. and there won't be any wriggling out.

but he doesn't want to do it. he's shown to be hesitant all the way through. so, his commitment isn't there.

if he was able to cut down his father like he did with lor san tekka, i would buy that he is committed, but the way it happens, it's almost like he wants to hand over his sabre. what's that about?

you know, if you're EVIL, this sort of thing should be a walk in the park but it's not to him, not in any way. EVIL doesn't ask permission. EVIL doesn't say thank you. it's the most bizarre sort of twist.

...

on the face of it, yes, he did what was expected. but to himself, he wasn't BAD enough by far, so his own standard of villainy (if such a thing exists) wasn't met. he can be bad and casual about his own brutality, we know this, so why isn't he then?

so what it achieved for snoke, is to push him further along, yes, but it also i think brings on unknown levels of self-loathing. that may have been the intention all along as well. whichever way kylo ren goes, he will betray something. the order and snoke or his love for his family.

dunno if that makes any sense.

 

i think you're saying this very beautifully. it's everything i would want from this scene, really. i'm struck by how ambiguous it is. yes there is murder in it, but it's done in a way that i find really hard to comprehend.

so, yes, han ruined this moment for him and it may be the one thing that keeps ben alive.

i'll be very interested in how they are going to explore this in the next story. i think him being challenged by rey and han actually touching him (a gesture that for this guy must be astonishingly intimate) is the only way in. i love that he crumbles like a cookie in the scene. what a guy!

 

I really like how you explained it here, and I think I get what you are saying, but I'm just not sure. I can see Kylo Ren seeing that moment before he dies in a moment of reflection, but his immediate conduct after Han touched his face told me that it didn't make a big impact in the moment, at least not consciously for Kylo. I find Kylo dumping his father into the pit still alive to be such an amazingly heartless act. It wasn't enough to murder Han. He made sure Han's final moments were alone. I also find Kylo using his murder of his father to taunt and manipulate Rey five seconds later just callous and inhuman. I can't even blame the dark side for that. We have plenty of examples of dark siders that demonstrate a shred of humanity in specific instances, often related to their family, throughout the SW universe. This, to me, indicates that Kylo Ren is incredibly far gone, and I feel that JJ intentionally portrayed him that way. They didn't have to show Kylo as dark as they did. He could have been grayer.

Now, according to the novel this murder weakened Kylo, so that could still be evidence in support of what you are saying. Maybe absent Han's touch, there would have been no negative impact on Kylo's strength.

 

I don't see your opinion and mine having any conflict at all. Except that I do feel that the touch shocked him to his core. You make absolute sense to me. I feel he is incredibly far dark, and he still is. He's still carrying that spark that he want's to get rid of. His father would have nothing to do with being part of the act the snuffed that spark out, so he did something about it. I have hope that the spark will grow more for the character for the sake of his family, but it may not.

He may yet succeed in putting it out, but his father refused to give him the satisfaction of being part of the act that took the last of Ben away.

I've never seen that act of murder weaken a dark character in this series before, only strengthen them. So yes, I really believe the touch is the part of the act that caused the weakenss.

 

you are right, he's very very monstrous.

and yet, to me, he isn't. i find it really hard to see the monster.

 

Um… okay? I'm not trying to convince you to see anything, nor am I discussing how you personally view the character as a puppy dog in wolf's clothing. I literally am just discussing the character's actions in the movie, and what the writers may have intended behind the moment between Han and Kylo. You failing to see the monster in the guy that murdered his father, among countless others, is great and all, but since I don't think that has much relevance to what was intended by the actual movie makers, it's not really a topic I care to discuss.

 

As it was for many to see the Monster that Darth Vader was once the mask was off. That's the funny thing about masks and faces.

The mask hides the man inside the monster, and the face hides the monster inside the man.

 

it strikes me, I can sometimes have a moment of going, omigod, he's a horrible person but it's no use that's some potent writing and acting and filming for that to work. and you are right, it was the same with vader. alchemy, I guess

 

Just read a Very Interesting Theory online. In Short, Han Made the Ultimate Sacrifice for his Son.

"I think Han is the one who activated the Lightsaber....not Ben. "I know what I have to do but I don't know If i have the strength to do it.....Will you help me?" Han: "Yes anything". Kylo pulls out his Lightsaber, holds it in both hands. Han Reaches down, Grasps the center of it. We just see their faces but notice they aren't struggling... The lightsaber then activates and stabs through Han, Kylo looks Startled for a moment and then says "thank you" Han touches his Son's face and falls into the abyss.

Kylo's / Ben's journey to the dark side required him to Kill his Father, Han knew this and knew Snoke would Kill his son if he failed this task. By Han activating the Lightsaber himself Kylo can still go back to Snoke and report the deed is done, But it wasn't really him that killed his Father, This ensures there will always be some light left in Kylo that cannot be snuffed out, Thus eventually Han's Sacrifice will succeed in bringing their Son home."

the biggest flaw in this theory is that Han would have to have believed that the He / Resistance couldn't keep his son safe from Snoke, or Never believed his Son would actually leave with him. But I thought it was worth posting....food for thought.

 

That's an interesting take to think about. It has a similar ring in that the character is still redeemable, but not redeemed. And both takes have Han playing much more of a role in trying to ultimately keep his son something that can maybe one day be redeemed. If I were betting, I would say that it was still murder though.

 

but is it clear from watching who actually ignites the sabre?

i think judging from kylo ren's face, it is him, but it seems strange that it isn't shown outright, or is it?

i don't think i view him as that. i see the monstrousness but somehow it doesn't register as *hard* as the other aspects of the character. way to put words in my mouth.

i think my response has as much relevance as everyone else's. i can't discuss the writer's intentions because i'm not them. i have a gut response and i am here because i need to understand it. it's part of why i expose myself to art or anything at all really, so that i may reflect on it. i don't subscribe to a word of god scenario where i'm being told how to feel and why. my feelings are my way in to the character. you can belittle that or find it ridiculous, that's your choice.

i'm also not interested in working out which label to apply to a character. the film is infinitely richer that way. they all make choices and they have led them to certain places in the story. otherwise, what is the point.

but i digress. it's ok, we won't see eye-to-eye on this.

 

You can tell by the way which Starkiller Base was consuming the star that Ben only stays loyal to the First Order probably because he sees any resistance as becoming futile to Snoke. He is temped to consider seriously leaving and returning. But once the star is consumed by the First Order's weapon he changes his mind and feels no other need, but to kill his father. It's something done in desperation. He feels if he leaves Snoke will be able to pull him back in somehow and the entire effort to leave will be futile. It hints to me that he feels that he is simply has to remain loyal to Snoke for the sake of survival.

 

Putting this here at the end of my old Kylo thread, because they touch on the same subject, Kylo's weakness later in the film after showing such power earlier.

I've been thinking about the two Kylo Ren scenes with incredibly similar circumstances but entirely different outcomes for him.

First the one with Lor San Tekka where Kylo, mask on, strikes him down, and right after San Tekka is stricken down, Kylo stops Poe's blaster shot mid air with his ability to control the Dark Side of the Force.

Then later with his father, mask off. Kylo once again strikes his target down, and right after Han falls, Kylo is unable to notice Chewie's shot to even start to stop it. I saw him weaken as Han caressed his cheek with that forgiving touch, that's been debated as to that act actually weakened Kylo as well, but both the script and the book say that Kylo was weakened by the whole encounter, for whatever reason.

Is it a coincidence that the storyteller shows us these two dastardly acts with someone shooting at Kylo, with one success and one failure? I don't think so. I believe the storyteller is hinting at something. I believe it is to show how strong he is in one situation and how he is weakened after the next. And there's something being told us as to Kylo's lack of power with that mask off.

I've wondered that maybe that Ben Solo can better get into the character of Kylo Ren with his mask on, as he can hide his true self from the outside world. The little poseur can hide and be that character he created to rebel from his parents.

But I wonder if this is even more? I wonder if there may be one HUGE secret that Kylo Ren keeps hidden behind that mask?

What if he can't see out of that damn mask? What if he took the mask off so that he could see Rey's face? What if he was weakened when he killed Han because it was the first time he actually gazed upon someone's face that he had killed? What if he is strong with the mask on because doesn't have to actually see the consequences of his actions?

Remember the training scene with Luke and the blast shield over his eyes?

What if Ben found he could do so much more behind that shield than when he used his own eyes?

 

i feel like it's too literal a reading.

i do think that he can't hide when he kills han which is where all a lot of the discomfort comes from. although, i guess killing one's father is always going to be difficult

and you're right, the contrast is with LST on jakku. it's rather amazing. there he is the snarling villain, with han he is in tears and asking for help. what a guy.