Discussions Best Pure Duelist?

Many may know this about me by now, but I LOVE lightsaber dueling. It's my favorite part of the Universe. Now, we've seen the competitions, the elimination style tournaments and such...but I'm curious as to who each individual person thinks is the best pure duelist. Not a versus competition or anything like that. Just, who do you think is the absolute best, and a detailed reason why.

Oh, and let's not pick Luke, just because he's pretty much untouchable by the end of Apocalypse and it's not fair.

 

Duelist? Dooku would be towards the top of the list. In one of the prequel EU books, Kit Fisto was supposed to be one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi order. He was the only one to defeat the JK-13 security droid, unofficially known as the "Jedi Killer" using only his lightsaber(Obi-wan defeated one as well but needed 2 weapons). If you just mean lightsaber combat, that's a bit more difficult. Sidious took out three Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds, only Mace Windu gave him any kind of battle and he would have probably beaten Sidious had Anakin not clipped Mace's finger nails all the way up to the wrist. Vader/Anakin in ROTS was damn good. The only reason he got beat was his cockiness and Obi-wan out thinking him at the right moment. Then of course there's Yoda who had nearly 900 years of lightsaber training so he's nearly unbeatable in a sword fight.

 

I would say Dooku! Yes, I think he could beat Mace so

 

That would be a great battle but Windu's Vaapad would probably have overcome Dukoo's Makashi. There's little doubt in my mind that Dukoo would have been beaten by Sidious in a saber fight and since Windu most likely would have beaten Sidious, Windu could probably beat Dukoo.

 

Okay, that's probably true if I remembered Form details but I'm a Dooku Fan, E-Dad!

 

Dukoo was a great duelist. He beat Obi-wan without breaking a sweat and that's not an easy feat.

 

True. But you know something I've heard about Vaapad has me curious. If Mace drew on the Dark Side in order to master it how is it he didn't fall and the Order has issue with Makashi Master that did?

 

With Vaapad, you skirt very close to the darkside without quite going over the precipice, same with Shii-Cho according to Kit Fisto.

"I should have gone closer to the edge. Released myself into the Force, become more unpredictable. More random."
"That would have been dangerous. Not to your body, perhaps, but to your spirit."
"It is the way of Form I."
―Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi discuss Shii-Cho

Very few are allowed to train in Form VII because of the dangers. Windu was the only practitioner of Vaapad to not fall to the darkside. Even juyo(which Vaapad is derived from) was restricted.

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."
―Yoda

 

Have you ever read Obsession, Cushing's Admirer?
Windu and Dooku face off against each other in that comic series.

 

No, I haven't, GI. Thanks for the knowledge but since Mace will likely best Dooku I'd rather not.

 

Not exactly, the duel did not last very long.
Dooku did not play fair, he was assisted by Magna Guards.

 

I would put Dooku as the best duelist.

One of the two Jedi able to best Windu. Something Sidious couldn't do.

 

I believe that Mace Windu is the best. According to Yoda, and I do believe Yoda was referring to Windu, only one student ever mastered Form VII. Considering what we know of Mace and Vaapad, I would have to assume that would be him. He defeated Palpatine in a straight up duel, and I really believe he would have killed him had Anakin not stopped him. Yoda even lost to Palpatine. Although it has been stated that only Dooku and Yoda had ever bested him, these are sparring matches, not fights to the death. Mace unleashed his full fury against Palpatine, who is, in my opinion, the greatest duelist in the entire history of the Sith.

 

False Silas Nightstalker, Yoda was not referring to Windu. Windu didn't simply master Vaapad, he invented it along with Sora Bulq. Yoda was most likely referring to Depa Billaba, considering that quote is from the novel Shatterpoint, in which Mace and Yoda were discussing Depa Billaba. Also, where does it say that Yoda and Dooku bested Windu? I don't think I've ever heard that.

 

In the EU, Juyo is occasionally called Vaapad even early on (Bane era) since the two names both apply to the same animal.

Mace expanded on Juyo, and to distinguish his "expanded form" from the "basic form", resurrected the old defunct name.

 

Christopher Lee walks into the room and every other participant surrenders.

 

If you read the novelization of Ep. 3, he really didn't. He was moments from being overwhelmed by obi-wan's soresu, panicked and threw obi-wan against a bulkhead with the force. In terms of dueling, He would have lost.

 

Vaapad is not an expanded form of Juyo. Juyo and Vaapad are both diferent styles of Form VII. It's explicitly stated in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith by Windu that he created Vaapad to match his own weaknesses. As for the term "Vaapad" being in the Bane books, Drew Karpyshyn was quoted saying it was a mistake. You can read it on the Juyo/Vaapad article on wookieepedia, or you can simply read it here.

"At a book signing in Huntington Beach, California, author Drew Karpyshyn said, "I meant Juyo, but it was a late night when I wrote that and didn't catch it until it was too late. That's one mistake I wish to God I could change. So when you read it and see 'Vaapad', just pretend it says 'Juyo.'" "

 

zark, I think he was referring to AOTC....

but isn't "overwhelmed by Soresu", like, an oxymoron?

I'm sure there's a way it can happen, but I haven't read the ROTS novelization.

Just a drive by comment.

 

^ this

 

Too hard for me to say honestly, as there are so many amazing duelists.

You could just go to wookieepedia and read it there on Dooku and Mace's pages, since you seem to be fond of using it.

 

True, he was destroyed there. And yeah, it does seem contradictory, but it's pretty much what happens. Also, it's worth a read if you ever find the time.

Just for the record, I'm a die hard Obi-Wan fan, so I'm gonna be a bit biased. But I will say that he beat grievous quite handily, and was the only master to come close. Mace Windu barely managed to fight Grievous to a stand still.

 

I like to think Sidious is the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time. I subscribe to the theory that he was holding back in the duel with Mace, knowing Anakin was on his way...

But it really depends. The different forms all serve to make their user better at certain areas than others. I'm no EU-phile, so can someone tell me if there are any characters stated to have mastered ALL forms? Because then they'd probably be worthy of being called the "ultimate" duelist.

 

Ka'sim, the saber master of Darth Bane is supposed to have mastered all forms. There was a Jedi equivalent at the time who I believe had served under Master Hoth.
Also, while I respect Sideous' ability, he would have lost to Windu imo. Period. BUT: Not necessarily strictly due to lightsaber skill, but rather due to the nature of Vapaad. Taking the dark and channeling it right back. This gave Windu a huge advantage over Sideous. But again, this is my opinion.

 

Juyo is "basic Form VII" Vaapad is "Mace's further-improved Form VII" according to Book of Sith.

Things get revised over time.

To sum up (based on my reading of Book of Sith & The Jedi Path - both of which were written after Path of Destruction):

Form VII was invented prior to the New Sith Wars. Some called it Juyo, some Vaapad.
After the Wars ended, it became a restricted form due to so many Jedi practitioners of it having Fallen due to the demands it made on them. The alternative name "Vaapad" for it falls into disuse (it may have been more a Sith-preferred name).

Prior to TPM, Mace, a Juyo practitioner, decides to refine and improve the style further.

He does so to such an extent, that he feels he as "created a new style from the old one" and feels it deserves a name of its own (though it's still similar enough that they are both Form VII).

He chooses the old "Vaapad" name for his "created style".

Authorial opinion is not canon - especially not when it contradicts later books.

So, canonically, the word "Vaapad" was used as an alternative name for Juyo, during the New Sith Wars.