Discussions Best Pure Duelist?

Iron_lord That makes sense, sorry for contradicting you. You seem to know your stuff.

 

No probs- Wookieepedia occasionally misses things out.

 

Yes. In fact my friend, the best Jedi capable to defeat any Sith or darksider is Windu ; because of the nature of Vaapad and his personal ability (Shatterpoint). According to RotS novel :
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow’s rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor’s office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue."
"Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace’s only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow’s future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow’s blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.
His instant’s distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow’s fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow’s lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
“For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,” Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, “is under arrest.”
All this qualities make him the best opponent for the the Sith because he can use their "power" against them instead of combating this "power" as Yoda done, causing his defeat.
Thank you for reading me.

 

In Pure skill?

For Jedi: Yoda, Luke, Jacen Solo, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Obi Wan Kenobi, etc.

For Sith: Palpatine, Caedus, Dooku, Vader, Maul, Exar Kun, Darth Malgus, Darth Krayt etc.

Overall: Most likely Luke.

 

On my opinion, the skills with a lightsaber are closely linked to the control of the Force. You cannot separate one from the other, but we can determine their ratio in relation to the user. Generally, we become more efficient with the Lightsaber thanks to many practices (physicals and spirituals) and experiences to the fighting. And in this categories, 2 (two) names come out of the batches : Yoda and Luke Skywalker. Yoda has more than 800 years of experience and even if he has not much fought during the 200 years that preceded the awakening of the Empire (3 times in fact: 2 times against Dooku respectively at Geonosis and at Vjun ; and 1 time against Sidious in the the Senate Arena), this in no way removed from his dexterity. In fact, if we observed well their duel (against Sidious), we note that it is Yoda who had the advantage in the lightsaber combat, and that he would have been able to win if Sidious had been as stupid as Anakin against Obi-wan in do not noticing that he did not prevail in the duel but rather that he (Obi-wan) gave him the illusion of the domination to better bait him and attack him at the time where he will expect the least. Yes, Sidious understood that he could not compete with Yoda in Lightsabers but that he could defeat him in a different way: with Force Power (since he is potentially more powerful in the Force that Yoda). It is then that he knowingly avoided the body to body and favored the distance battle by sending him a multitude of pods and devastating lightning bolts, exhausting little by little his opponent and thus winning the fight. The winner of the duel is well known but the real duelist is without doubt Yoda. For Luke, it is a little complicated. Personally, I am part of those who think that the duel in the Second Death Star mirrored completely the one in the Invisible Hand. And that just as Tyranus had received the order to simulate its defeat at the hands of Anakin and turning him to the Dark Side by "killing" his former Master and best friend, Vader did the same with Luke (with the life of his friends,expecially his sister at stake). The only difference is that unlike Tyranus, Vader was well aware of his fate. You'll recall the dialog between Luke and Vader before they leave to the Death Star when Luke tried to reason him. Here is his answer: "It is too late for me, son. You underestimate the power of the Dark Side ; i must obey my Master. ".
Where I am coming from is that at the time of ROTJ, Luke was not stronger than Vader and still less that Sidious ; but he was potentially more powerful than them and that Luke decided to give himself to Sidious not only in the hope of bringing his father to the Light Side, but also for they unite their strength to be able to defeat Sidious. I think, according to my knowledge of Georges Lucas, that Luke was at the same level as his father in ROTS and that unlike the latter, he has had the time to outdo himself. Indeed, the death of the Emperor did not mean the death of the Empire. It is therefore as well as Luke and his friends go on to fight for peace and justice even against other enemies ( Yuuzhan Vong, the Dark Nest, "Sith Lord", Demonic Entity ... ). It is simple : his life has been that of wars and fighting with a few brief lulls and we know that it is in time of war that the skills are evolving as quickly as compared to the time of peace. In my humble opinion, despite the performance of Luke with a lightsaber and its many victories (EU as references), he does not come to the ankle of Yoda. Yoda's skills outclass that of any Force-sensitive, Jedi and Sith alikes. As regards Luke, it is a completely different story. Even if he is immensely powerful and that he unquestionably dominate his time, it is not sure that this is the case in the PT. Indeed, following his performance rather modest against oppenents such as Lumiya, Omini or Lomi Plo, its suggests that if he was facing Real SwordMaster such as Tyranus, Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Shaak Ti, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar or yet Obi-wan Kenobi, it would have difficult for him to prevail, or even not to lose. After all, it is true that he has more experience on the fields of battles that the majority of the PT Jedi gathered, but in his time, the Great Duelists were not legion unlike the PT where a thousand years of training, meditation and self-discipline gave birth to the most prolific and the most gifted generation of Jedi that their Order ever formed.
Finally, I would like to clarify that the duel at the lightsaber is not an exact science; that it is not because A has beaten B and B shot C, that does mean A necessarily prevail against C. No, it does not work like that. Just as you have observed, Mace has had difficulty in overcoming a Grevious with 2 lightsabers in a singular combat, while obi-wan has fairly easily and quickly defeated G rievous when he used 4 lightsabers. However, Mace is deemed stronger than obi-wan. Another example even more clear with Mace, Yoda and Sidious: it is obvious now that Mace would have defeated Sidious if Anakin had not intervened, while Yoda, despite its superior mastery of lightsaber combat, has lost against Sidious. Does that mean that Mace is stronger than Yoda? Far from it. Yoda is more skilled at lightsaber combat and more powerful (potentially and efficiently) than Mace Windu and Mace Windu's Vaapad has no effect against Lightsaber so he cannot use Yoda's powers against the latter, and so he will downgrade from Vaapad to simple Juyo. Each lightsaber Form has benefits and limitations depending of the oppenent's Form and personal state of mind. There are many caracteristics for becoming a Great Duelist, but there are 3 (three) that come out of the batches: Power (midi-chlorians counts), Control (of oneself) and Techniques (the best means to win a duel). This is the reason why a seemingly more powerful Anakin Skywalker has lost against a seemingly less powerful obi-wan Kenobi.
Thank you for reading me.

 

What?

How is Lumiya holding her own against Luke a slap to his skill? Lumiya defeated post ROTJ, and in LoTF she consistently held her own and i even states as much in their final duel. Luke has still fought evenly with Palpatine, defeated Darth Vader, killed armies of Vong, and defeated Darth Caedus. Windu and Dooku can't even begin to compare with those feats.

Luke is legitimately the most skilled duelist in the mythos.

 

Huttslime, can't argue with that. That's what I was thinking in the back of my mind as I browsed through this thread.