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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Best Scene of Revenge of the Sith

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by kotorkayla, Apr 15, 2011.

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  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    The slaughter on the younglings and the attack on Padmé were necessary to show he has fully commited himself to evil.

    Assured happy ends weaken the suspension.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Disagree on both counts, but I see no point in arguing over it either.

    As I said, people have different tastes.
     
  3. Avii

    Avii Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2010
    I totally understand what you mean with the younglings. I know it was to be dramatic but we know he is a bad guy. We saw him march with clones up the stairs... I like that part but it's heavy.

    Regarding Padme I think if they had the original plan as seen in a Star Wars insider. Padme was going to try and kill Anakin because he strayed too far from the light. Then the attack would be sorta...Justified? As the cut we see in the movie it is a bit far fetched...

     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Exactly. That part was chilling but that part also had to be done. Leaving out the five minutes or so that had the younglings hiding in the Jedi Council chambers and just showing Anakin marching in with the clones, maybe having him cutting down an adult Jedi or two who greeted him--that's pretty damn evil. I'm not sure why that wouldn't be considered evil enough.

    There's a good thread, still on page 1 I believe, on the Force choke; I still call that element of the plot unnecessary though, at least in regards to showing that Anakin turned to the Dark Side.

    As far as the "assured happy endings," I actually will address that, not to be argumentative but in regards to personal preference. ROTS had an assured sad ending, and I'm not sure how that is any better. I'm the type of person who will read the end of a book first or at least find a Cliff Notes version of the plot to make sure that it doesn't end in such a way that is going to leave me depressed after I read it. There is enough to be depressed about in real life, books and film are my escape. It's never ruined the suspense for me though.

    Again, personal preference, some people prefer darker and sadder stories, and nobody is "wrong" in what they prefer nor is one preference "better" than another.
     
  5. Avii

    Avii Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2010
    It's ok Anakinfan, no one is flaming you because your opinions. But really, read the Cliff notes to determine the happy ending or not? What about the suspense of not knowing what will happen when you turn the page?
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't feel like I'm being flamed, it's all good. [face_peace] Maybe I've just seen quite a bit of "That opinion is wrong" type posts lately so I'm trying to head that off in advance.

    In answer to your question, I can know how a story ends and still be interested in how the protagonists got from point A to point B (or C or D). So there is still that element of suspense, of not knowing what happens.

    Example, I like to read nonfiction and fictionalized accounts of real historical events, such as Michael Shaara's novel The Killer Angels, about the Battle of Gettysburg. Now, I know who won that battle, I also know that it was the turning point of the Civil War. The novel was still good, and suspenseful, because of the detail.

    And we did already know the ending of ROTS in advance, and we still think it was a good movie. (Even I do, as I said, it was a well done film, just not one I'm going to sit down and watch several times.)
     
  7. Avii

    Avii Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2010
    This is proof that it is the journey that matters and not always the destination!
     
  8. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    That's why the tension in ROTS was never as high as it could have been. Sure it was high, but not nail-bitingly high. I hope I make sense.

    Yes a story can be exciting if you know the ending already. But the real "sitting on edge of the seat" excitement comes when being left in the dark how it will end.
     
  9. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    ROTS clearly had to be a dark movie with a sad ending... and thus it was done right (and very well) in my opinion. But I totally agree that the "A New Hope" chapter, with the delivery of the twins to their respective new homes, is indeed a happy scene because it shows promise that things will not remain dark forever. After what has happened for the last hour or so of the movie, that scene gives me a lump in my throat pretty much every time.
     
  10. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Even knowing what was going to happen I found certain parts (particularly the impending conclusion to the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel) to be perhaps the most nail-biting moments I've experienced in a movie theatre. Maybe that tension was born more out of my hopes and fears that it would be executed in a fashion I so badly wanted... but imagine a newcomer to the saga. I can't imagine they wouldn't find ROTS at least somewhat unpredictable and completely enthralling for the most part. Those unaware of the later episodes would surely struggle to foresee the events playing out exactly as they do. Sure, in retrospect, or with acquired understanding of where the saga is going, Anakin's flaws and path to evil is certainly hinted at and foreshadowed, but he's also portrayed more clearly as the future saviour and obvious hero of the story. Yes one can accurately make the case he eventually fulfils that destiny by Episode 6, but that he would stoop to such a tragic and seemingly irreversible fall before then would never be so clearly on any newcomer's radar, I don't believe. In Episode 3, the bad guy you expect to be found out and taken down wins an apparently everlasting victory, two of the main characters, along with the entire Jedi and Republic bodies that have been rooted for, meet their end. Stuff like that doesn't tend to happen in a fantasy film for all ages. When Empire Strikes Back did it on a much lesser scale, it was lauded and praised for having broken the mould. Just because we expected it in ROTS shouldn't make it any less treasured in my opinion. It took no half-measures. It is what it had to be in the grander scheme of things. To fully appreciate the light, you first have to fully experience darkness... or to put it another way, the sweetest victories are always born out of the memory of your worst losses. Having seen ROTS and ESB, the end of ROTJ feels so much more satisfying.
     
  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Indeed. I also find many of the little details -- unexpected, trivial and yet oh-so-not -- affecting, ranging from Padme sowing the seed of her own doom in a chapter appropriately called "Seeds Of Distrust" (consider: she says to Anakin, "How long is it going to take before we're honest with each other?", even though Anakin has been nothing but honest towards her; and Padme inadvertently brings Obi-Wan to Mustafar; so this surely implies her own guilt in Anakin's mind), to Obi-Wan downplaying Anakin's upset to Mace and Yoda when alone with them ("Anakin did not take to his new assignment with much enthusiasm"), attempting to gently embellish the truth (that Anakin practically bit his head off) because he has faith and believes that Anakin will do the right thing ("He won't let me down; he never has"), which is quite in contrast to Anakin's assessment of things a couple of scenes later ("Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me"). These little weaves in a large tapestry make ROTS a more poignant and enveloping work (to me). I, for one, did not know how these final events were going to play out; so it was all the more sad and entrancing when Lucas brought it all to a close with touches big and small. It is, indeed, both the big and the small of the thing -- the epic and the intimate -- that makes ROTS such a wondrous, captivating, alternately awe-inspiring and weep-inducing affair (bittersweet I believe they call it). And that's quite apart from getting into its more intellectual qualities. At least... as I regard it.
     
  12. Pendulous_Dewlap

    Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 21, 2011
    "Return of the Jedi," which featured - among other things - an explosion at the muppet factory and an infestation of pot-bellied teddy bears, undermined the mythic power of "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" by compromising the integrity of the original story. Instead of following the narrative through to its logical conclusion, Lucas decided to pander to children, dumb down the characters, and linger on his expansive visual effects. "Jedi" is a work of staggering mediocrity, one that is only marginally better than the cinematic atrocities that are "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones."

    "Sith" is junk. Entertaining junk, but junk nonetheless. It's a visually arresting spectacle that offers nothing in the way of mythic or emotional nourishment. Your eyes are tickled by the film's luscious visual ornaments, but your heart and mind remain unengaged.
     
  13. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Well...to each his own I suppose. I have never considered Revenge of the Sith "junk," and of all the films, I have consistently found it to be the most emotionally arresting and resonant. I found it to be a profoundly draining film that pulled me, along with the characters, into the depths of the abyss. The opera scene (particularly when Sidious says "It's ironic, he could save others from death...but not himself), Order 66/Anakin's attack on the younglings, the tears on Mustafar, the immolation, Padme's funeral, etc. never fail to send shivers down my spine, no matter how many times I've seen it. And the more I peel back the layers, the more I am enthralled by its visionary components. Just the other day, for example, I found out from a relative that Mustafa (aka Mustafar) is the Arabic word for "Chosen One." You don't get much more mythic than that.
     
  14. Pendulous_Dewlap

    Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 21, 2011
    "Sith" is a handsomely crafted action picture that delivers more or less what it promises: wall-to-wall action, sweeping melodrama, political intrigue, and abstract narrative closure. I would hardly call it 'good,' but it gets the job done. (And it's light-years beyond the wretched "Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones"; thank you, Tom Stoppard). In comparison to such dreary sequels as "Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides," "Hangover Part II," and "Scream 4," ROTS represents a superior example of aggressively commercial American moviemaking. Episode III is 'junky' in the sense that it offers little beyond what it advertises; it's a product of its genre, and therefore limited in its appeal. "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" transcended the domain of space opera to become exemplary works of popular art. They had a profound effect on people. "Revenge of the Sith," for all of its labored aspirations, is neither deep nor resonant.

    And "Sith" is an anagram of ****, so there you go.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, "to each his own" is right. I enjoyed ANH and ESB, and yes, they changed the domain of "space opera" forever and had a profound effect on people. But ROTJ is the film that made me the Star Wars fan that I am today. And I didn't feel that it was "dumbed down" at all, although I was a tween when it premiered and would have been very quick to point out a movie that was too "babyish." Nothing dumbed down about a story of redemption. I'm not sure what "logical conclusion" you thought the narrative should have gone to, but not killing Han Solo, and ending a story on a happy, hopeful note, does not make the story "childish." There are adults who do not want to leave movie theaters feeling thoroughly depressed.

    I also feel a great sense of justice every time I see a "legion of the Emperor's best men" get their asses handed to them by pot-bellied teddy bears who worship C3PO. [face_laugh]

    And yes, ROTS is emotionally resonant, in the opposite way that ROTJ is, which is why I never watch it all the way through. There are scenes that I will rewatch several times, and scenes that I only saw in the $1.50 theater in August 2005.

    Coming back to this again: your personal dislike of a film does not make it "junk", "mediocre," or a bad movie. It makes it a movie you don't like.
     
  16. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    To be honest, I'd argue that much the same could be said of ANH. The special effects, obviously, were way ahead of their time and really drew audiences in, but the story itself delivers on what it promises: a simple tale of good versus evil with classical figures of the hero, the rogue, and the princess battling against an evil empire. It offers little in the realm of emotional scope, which is fair as it was never advertised as such. Did it touch the hearts of moviegoers around the world? Of course, as evidenced by the success of the franchise. But it's a film that, while fun, doesn't ask you to think very much. You sit back and enjoy the world for what it is, unconditionally rooting for the good guys to win. This is part of its appeal -- the sense of escapism. And it arrived at a crucial juncture, when Americans were wearied of the struggle in Vietnam. I will say that for ESB, I have two main criticisms: the love story consistently fails to draw me in, not because it's poorly done per se, but because it is completely disposable in terms of the overall storyline. Leia and Han falling in love really doesn't matter in the long run and it develops their characters (in my opinion) at the expense of the plot. Furthermore, ESB can, I feel, be overdone at times. The most egregious example would be when Han is frozen -- there's simply too many tricks being employed to make it dramatic that I find it risks crossing into portentous. The looks, the dramatic kiss, the lighting, the smoke, the music are all very much brought to the forefront and, for the most part, it works. But when that giant claw comes down, it crosses into the realm of hilarity (slightly), for me at least. Another example would be Luke's reaction to his fathers' revelation. It isn't bad, but I've found it, again, to be overdone given Luke's somber reaction to his adopted parents' deaths.

    I've seen other films really reach out and grab audiences, of course, such as Titanic and Avatar. I remember reading with Avatar that there were individuals becoming suicidally depressed because there was no Pandora for them to visit. I do not think these two films are great. They are serviceable, but they never transcend the sum of their parts to become greater as a whole. Also, they consistently manipulate the audience so that we can only think one way about the characters and have a unilateral opinion of them. There's no questioning of actions or second-guessing their decisions.

    I would argue that ROTS does transcend the genre. Of course, there's some clunky dialogue and (at times) overdone action, but it doesn't let us sit in a comfortable balance. Padme's disintegration, Anakin's desperate confusion, the Jedi Council's questionable morals/ethics all combine to make a film that is very uneasy, where there are no "true" heroes to root for. Even the good men, such as Obi-Wan, leave their children to burn. And I feel this is a much more honest portrayal of life and relationships. Is it messy and seemingly impenetrable? Sure, but then, this is a tale of human frailty,
     
  17. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Whoops, I hadn't read this post. I find ROTJ enthralling, while I am fully aware it appeals to children. In my opinion the movies appeal to all ages, it's part of the charm.
    I don't see how you can't find some emotional stimulation in ROTS. It's depressing nature enhances the saga for me.
    To see Anakin striving for something you know he is doomed to not achieve, it's one of the things that gives the film a mythic quality not achieved by the other prequels. But I can see that, if you don't like even ROTJ, I can say little to change your opinion. If you are going to write off the movies based on standards set by the OT, I can't say anything to sway you. Having said that, I'm baffled by your low assessment of ROTJ. I can see how you can complain about the prequels, but ROTJ had basically the same acting as ANH and ESB, and even if you are put off by the ewoks, you have the scenes on the second deathstar with Luke, Vader, and the Emperor.
    Back to ROTS, it has rich mythology, subtext, and symbolism. It's far from a summer throw away movie, I don't see how a Star Wars fan can see it as "junk". Okay, the dialogue has it's flaws, but there is so much going on behind it. Without the novel, and/or a fan's understanding of the film, I can see how it seems disposable. But the movie has many levels left to the viewers perception, and much of it can be debated and discussed, something I think Lucas intended entirely.
    If you can't see this, I get the impression you just aren't trying. Just look at the plotline of Anakin's experience with the Jedi Council and Palpatine. It might seem obvious that Anakin is just being pandered to by Palpatine, being told what he wants to hear, and being shut out by the Jedi, but there is so much that isn't portrayed in the dialogue we get. Anakin being pulled in two directions, and the confusion he is feeling, as well as the similarity and contradiction in the Jedi and the Sith is particularly interesting. There is so much to read between the lines and it, IMO, gives the film a far more mythical feel, and a feeling that you are encouraged to debate it more than any of the six movies.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    ^^^ Forgive the rambling nature of that post, I was a little drunk.
    Just wanted to add a few points.
    ROTS adds a grey area to the movies that I think deepens and enriches the whole saga. The OT movies were a much simpler good vs evil affair, where the characters are easier to relate to, and root for. If you are looking for the dynamic of our OT heroes in the prequels, you aren't going to find it IMO.
    While it is easy to side with the Rebels and the Jedi in the OT, Revenge of the Sith really makes you think. I find it frustrating that people can't find depth in this episode, while praising the, arguably better, OT. Like I have said before, Empire Strikes Back is the superior movie for me. It is the most convincing installment (dialogue, acting wise, and visually), the characters are easy to follow, the music is classic, and the explanation and mythos of the force is satisfying. The characters are IMO the deepest of any installment, the environment and atmosphere feels real, I can find little to criticise about this movie.
    Having said that, ROTS hardly leeches the life out of the OT. The music really drives this film, and there is emotional resonance, if you let yourself get into it, that echoes througout every other episode. TPM on it's own isn't a masterpiece, but combined with the rest of the films, ROTS particularly, it is far stronger and far more meaningful. Hardly the worst movie you could ever see. I can see why it would be dissapointing with the standard set by the original trilogy, but if you let go of that and take into account that it is a different time, an age of innocence, there is much more to offer than a momentary glance gives you. But that's probably been said many times before...
    Back to ROTS. I applaud Lucas for making us question our "heroes", and deeply understand our "villains". I'm not quite eloquent enough to say how, but I just can't see this movie as disposable. Sure, the constant action made it fun to watch in the cinema, it has what is required for a summer throw away movie, but it doesn't get stale on repeated viewings, and if it doesn't challenge you in any way I feel you just aren't looking hard enough.
    A disposable movie would not offer so much to think about, compared even to the OT, and be designed in a way that it is wholly intended that you watch it several times. The dialogue on first glance isn't amazing, but the repercussions of most of the events in the film truely add to the other films, and give the saga a certain aura, that hasn't faded for me in the six years since ROTS came out. But to each his own :rolleyes:
     
  19. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I see we've gone in a big circle since this was posted 9 days ago. :p

     
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Yes. It's painfully obvious that this user has, well... issues.
     
  21. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    Wrong. Order 66 brought me to tears. Not just a little wetness of the eyes, or a short sob, but I cried uncontrollably for at least five minutes. But that was only the beginning. It continues to amaze me how few people are willing to discuss the Prequel Trilogy for what it truly is: A warning and a prediction. The people must not give up their freedoms for the promise of security. Please take these films to heart, and know that they are telling a very REAL story!

    So, no. ROTS is not just a flashy action movie. The story is very serious and important for mankind. It touched my heart and changed my mind about politics forever.
     
  22. I-poodoo

    I-poodoo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2001
    The birth of Luke and Leia, and Padme's death, woven in the editing with the transformation of Anakin into Darth Vader.
    The moment when we see the helmet coming down and when we finally hear that famous sound of Vader drawing in and exhaling his first breath I get chills down my spine every time.
     
  23. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    I actually got nauseous watching Padme choked. Damn-near screamed ?Stop it!? to the screen.

    Understand that this is a reaction usually evinced by the likes of Sophie's Choice and Requiem for a Dream.
     
  24. Sith_Bounty-Hunter

    Sith_Bounty-Hunter Jedi Master star 4

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    May 23, 2002
    I love the scene of Ani & the clone troopers marching on the jedi temple
     
  25. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I actually laughed.
     
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