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CT Better Pilot, Vader or Han ????

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Master Endz-One, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    Being able to use the force, doesn't make you a better Pilot. The Force helps a person become better at everything they do, but doesn't mean they do everything better. Han was a better Pilot than Obi-Wan and Luke(some might argue Luke's a better Pilot, but I see no evidence of that), Hera is a better Pilot than Ezra and Kanan.

    Podracing isn't the same as flying a ship, it's considered more as race car driving. You have to remember Anakin wasn't a natural, he crashed every other time and didn't finish the race. Anakin won when it counted, through the will of the force. That was his first win at podracing
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Luke didn't have much Jedi training at that point. If we're talking about trained Luke, then Luke would have been better able to pick his shots.

    If you read the rest of my post, you would see that I mentioned certain body types and even eye stalks.

    As Qui-gon pointed out, humans need Jedi reflexes to pilot a pod. That's why the Boonta Eve was made up of aliens with multiple limbs, or had eye stalks or certain body types that made them suitable for the race and Anakin says that he is the only human to have ever done it. Han wouldn't last one minute being good as he is.

    There's also this passage from Wookieepedia.

    A racer could commonly achieve speeds in excess of eight hundred kilometers per hour. Because of this, Podracing required lightning-fast reflexes, and only species with a wide range of sensory organs, multiple limbs, or durable bodies were known to race pods. Species such as Humans rarely took part in races, and never won—with a single exception.

    Speeder Bikes, on the other hand, had a slower speed.

    They were capable of reaching speeds up to and beyond five hundred kilometers per hour, and had a flight ceiling of twenty-five meters.

    While in the case of the Swoop Bike.

    Swoops were capable of traveling at over six hundred kilometers per hour. While some had the ability to travel several hundred kilometers above a planet's surface, they generally kept a low altitude. Due to their power and difficult controls, they had many flaps and control vanes to aid in controlling the vehicle, but due to the unpredictable nature of swoops, few used them. Turbothrusters could also be used on them to improve their top speeds.

    Anakin didn't win because of the will of the Force. He won because Qui-gon gave him a special instruction to trust the Force, before leaving.

    QUI-GON: "Are you all set, Ani? Remember, concentrate on the moment. Feel. Don't think. Trust your instincts. May the Force be with you."

    That's why Anakin lost the earlier races as he thought more than felt through the Force.
     
  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Yes it does. It you to see things before they happen which is why it looks like you have quick reflexes.

    Exactly.

    Maybe not specifically but generally that is the case. If you aren't a pilot then it can't make you one. You have to learn the skill.

    There is no evidence that Han is better than Luke either. It really never came up. Han doesn't fly fighters and Luke doesn't fly the Falcon.

    Luke probably is and certainly should be since he can do what Han can't and react to things before they happen consciously. For Han it's something that is a natural sense that he can't control.

    Anakin was a natural as much as is possible. He won because of listening to Qui-Gon's instructions and feeling not thinking.
     
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  4. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017

    So you're saying anyone one who uses the force is a better Pilot, Swordsman, General and Detective, than any non force users?

    If that was true Jango Fett or General Grevious could have never killed or out maneuver a Jedi, but Grevious continuously out maneuvered and killed Jedi. Jango Fett killed Jedi if my memory serves right.

    The force help guides the reflexes of force users, they don't necessarily see 2 seconds in the future and react to it. Does being a Force User gives you an advantage? Yes, but it doesn't automatically make you better than every non force user.
     
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  5. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Come on Sarge. Force powers are a +21 on a single 20 sided die roll.

    Although this is real world v. fiction, yes training and dedication usually win the day. But what about natural gifts PLUS training and dedication. The Jedi sure liked their training and Anakin was no slouch in the Jedi Order.

    Han didn't seem to be one for discipline. Between throwing one liners at Chewie, Leia and of course 3PO, he might as well have been texting as he piloted. Chewie always seemed to be the one doing the repairs.

    Now Rey v. Anakin/Vader. Clearly Rey.
     
  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Notice how Wookiepedia doesn't make broad definitive statements? They allow room for exceptions?

    If dummy stormtroopers can skillfully weave in & out of trees at 500+ km/r, the absolute best human pilot like Han could race a pod around an often wide open track at 800 km/r. Maybe he wouldn't win but I'm sure that with enough practice he could compete.
    A starship at top sublight speed must travel at many times faster than those speeds. Yet Han can get a big clumsy freighter to navigate through dense asteroid fields. He can outmaneuver smaller nimble starfighters. Clearly he's supposed to be an exceptional pilot. So how can we say for sure that he couldn't be an exception to the no-human podracer custom?
     
  7. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    And Han is braver than Leia thought when it comes to his choice of spacecraft.
     
  8. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Yep. Han was still amazing though. He had a mixture of skill, luck and bravery which combined to make him achieve the impossible. Such as the asteroid field sequence and landing on Starkiller base.
     
  9. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998

    There are many levels of Force powers, and many levels of skill. Anakin may have been +21, but most Jedi were less than that. In my headcanon, there's plenty of room for exceptionally skilled mundanes to occasionally surpass Force sensitives in certain areas.
     
  10. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Of course. Even before Leia found out Luke was her brother, Han was totally winning that battle.

    Let's face it. The "no marrying" rule was just a deception so the Jedi didn't have to admit that they sucked at romance. Luke never had a chance. He didn't even have a paint brush.
     
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  11. BookExogorth

    BookExogorth Jedi Master star 4

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    May 4, 2017
    To interject into this, no... but I agree with the inside quote. The keyword is what they do. It doesn't make Random Jedi possibly better than Han, it makes Anakin Skywalker, pilot for his whole life, possibly better than Han.
     
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  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    This is getting off-field. Let's concentrate on piloting.

    The answer is yes if they train to be a pilot. You can't just be a Jedi and never have flown before and be better with no training or practice.

    Obviously those with the Force don't have to wear flight suits etc and can withstand g-forces far better.

    Anakin at 9 was better than Han as a pilot as the podrace showed. Han could never do that.

    They may be dummies but obviously they have skills as pilots. Han isn't that bright either but can still pilot as well. If those troopers were really that good then they would have escaped.

    It's still humans against humans though. What you do think Sebulba would do on Endor? He's outrun and weave circles around any of them.
     
  13. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    I don't know if Vader is a better Pilot than Han, but Han is one of the better Pilots in the Galaxy. He can out fly most of the old Jedi Order and Sith. Obi-Wan has flown plenty of times and isn't better than Han, being a Force User doesn't necessarily make you a better Pilot. Can you explain Hera being a better Pilot than Kanan and Ezra. In Star Wars the best Pilots fly the ships, Anakin took command in the PT, Hera in Rebels, Han in the OT, Poe and Rey in the ST
     
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    How do you know that? You don't, it's just your guess. Even if it were true, that doesn't make Anakin a "better pilot" in general. Anakin bumbles his way through the space battle. I don't think that at as a 9 year old he's in the same league as Han in terms of starship piloting. Later in life, different story. We're guessing though, so let's not pretend we know for certain.
    Irrelevant. No one said that scout-troopers or even Han would be "better" than Sebulba. That's too hard to speculate on. What I'm saying is we can't definitively say that someone of Han's ability can't pilot a pod & compete in a race. The guy can maneuver a big clumsy freighter at far greater speeds through asteroid fields, while fighting off small nimble TIEs. Of course it's possible.
     
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  15. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    You guys keep talking about Star Wars version of car racing, totally different than flying a ship. A pod Hoovers, you don't see it in Space or high in the Sky for long periods of time. Everyone that says Vader is the best is incorrect, he wasn't the strongest Jedi or Sith. Vader is a great Force User, but was never the best Force User in the Galaxy at any point of his life.
     
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    It's no guess. The story is telling us so. Anything else is just fighting the story as presented.

    Han is human. Humans cannot compete in these races. Anakin is the only human who can do it. He can only do it because of his Jedi "reflexes" meaning he sees thing before they happen. If Lucas wanted us to see it another way then he'd have other humans in the race. Even then Anakin who "is a credit to your race" as Watto says never even finished a race before.

    Anything Anakin sets his mind to he will sooner rather than later run rings around Han. This is a kid who can fix virtually anything. He could take the Falcon apart and put it back together again and make it better. He'd fix the hyperdrive in no time while Han is still arguing with 3PO.

    For his first time in space he was amazing. Yet Han couldn't do what Anakin did.

    We don't need to pretend. We know. What took Han years to learn Anakin would have down in possibly hours. A few minutes with Ric Ollie and Anakin is already learning the Naboo ship.

    Not at all. Han is nothing compared to Sebulba. He's not in the same league in terms of skill. Now when it comes to not being a total idiot Han wins out. Sebulba is too arrogant and that is what holds him back.

    We already talked about this. Can Han enter and fly around and maybe even not get killed or finish? Sure. That is possible. He couldn't actually compete to win. Compete for surviving to cross the finish line and not come last because others crashed? Again that is possible.

    You can't fly the Falcon in a pod race. That isn't the point. That's like comparing Han flying the Falcon as you would a jumbo jet plane to the kind of plane that Harrison Ford himself crashed on the golf course.
     
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  17. Pain and Suffering

    Pain and Suffering Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 8, 2015
    Definitely Vader. Han is a great pilot too, and I would say he's the best non-Force-sensitive pilot in the galaxy, but I think both Vader and Luke are better pilots.
     
  18. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    I would say Vader. Han got real lucky when he caught Vader off guard in ANH. But there's no doubt Han's one heck of a pilot as well.
    The real question to ask is who is the better podracer
     
  19. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Anakin was aided by the Force, Han was aided by adrenaline.
     
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  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I never said that any humans didn't take part. I said that they wouldn't win without the advantages that come from the Force, nor the advantages of being an alien being like Sebulba.

    Even with practice, the only way Han could win is if he has Chewbacca with him so that he can handle the issues that come with pods, while Han did the flying. And Podracers are single occupant pilots. Scout Troopers aren't traveling nearly as fast as a pod does, which is why they and other humans can use them safely. That's why the official guidebooks never state that Speeder Bikes and Swoop Bikes can only be flown by certain alien species.


    Starships like the Millennium Falcon, the Rogue One, the Ghost and the Tantive IV, all have co-pilots and are specifically designed to accommodate multiple people. Note that when Rey is flying alone, she states that it is a struggle to fly and take care of the other needs, like flipping on the shields. In the old EU, Luke had to fly the Falcon all by himself and only by using the Force, could he accomplish such a task. Starfighters often have Astromechs or are a two man show. TIE Fighters have great maneuverability, but often crash when flying in tight spaces.

    Grievous couldn't outfight a Jedi with a Lightsaber, but with a blaster he could sucker Needhar in and shoot him when he wasn't able to defend himself. Jango killed Coleman Trebor because the Jedi made the mistake of not focusing on him first and was taken unaware.

    More than most. That's why Mace said that one Jedi is worth one hundred warriors. Luke wouldn't have taken out Jabba's goons and Anakin wouldn't have been able to wipe out a Tusken village and all the Separatist Council and Battle Droids on Mustafar. And yes, it is like seeing two seconds into the future. That's why Qui-gon said that Anakin can see things before they happen, which is why he has such incredible reflexes.

    Luke never pilots a starship, much less a fighter until the third act of ANH. All he does is use a landspeeder, but Obi-wan says that he's a pretty good pilot from what he's heard. Piloting means using any vehicle. Be it a Speeder Bike, a Podracer or a ship.
     
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  21. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017


    I think you need to watch this:



    Not everyone is as strong as Anakin,. Anakin was way stronger than almost every Master. If Anakin could see 2 seconds ahead in a Battle he wouldn't have jumped, when Obi-Wan had the high ground. If Anakin could see 2 seconds ahead Dooku couldn't have chopped off his arm. If the Jedi Order could see seconds before, order 66 wouldn't have been successful.
     
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  22. J7Luke

    J7Luke Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 30, 2017
    What an interesting discussion! It seems to me there are actually several arguments going on here, so I will attempt to address several of them.

    Han vs. Vader:
    Vader wins hands down. Anakin/Vader's thing is flying. He was racing pods since before he knew he had powers. He was known as the best pilot in the galaxy. He had a strange connection with ships (ex. the Twilight). He was a gifted mechanic (ex. building droids and pod racers at a young age). He won the battle of Naboo during his first flight in a starfighter. There are countless examples of his incomparable skill in the PT, OT, and TV shows. In contrast, Han's thing is smuggling. Piloting is a large part of smuggling, but there is much more involved. While Han was definitely an adequate pilot, I think it was his other skills that made him who he was.

    Han vs. Force User:
    There were many Jedi who were not great pilots. As much as I love him, I think Obi-wan falls into this category (ex. Jango vs. Obi-wan). Han was a skilled enough pilot that he probably could have beaten force users of that caliber. As a side note, Vader was way more than just a good pilot with force abilities. If you watch Season 2 Episode 2 of Rebels, it really showcases Vader's skill. He easily wrecked not only all of the Rebel fighters but the Ghost crew. This is important because the Ghost was piloted by Hera, an amazing pilot. Even more important, Hera was assisted by two force users in the cockpit and another manning the guns. And they were no match for Vader. (This also supports Point 1 because I consider Han to be on par with Hera.)

    Han's Ability to Pilot a Podracer:
    Why is this important? Podracing has little-to-nothing to do with the ability to pilot a starfighter. That would be like saying that if you can win in a Motocross race then you must also be really good at flying fighter jets. I think what people focus on is that Anakin was the only human who could do it well, so this means he is better than every other human at anything that involves piloting. This argument is invalid because podracing and piloting a starfighter are completely different things (ex. Anakin had almost no clue how to fly a Naboo starfigher even after winning the podrace). Do I think Han could pilot a podracer if he really wanted to and he spent time training? Yes. Would he ever be as good as Anakin? No.

    The Advantage of the Force:
    The Force boosts abilities you already have. If you are a mediocre pilot, it can make you a good pilot. If you are a great pilot, you can beat a mediocre pilot that has the force. Same thing with dueling. Grevious had slain many Jedi before he was defeated and even presented Master Kenobi with quite a challenge. He didn't have the force, yet he was able to hold his own. So Vader was a good pilot for more reasons than just the force, and the force can not be credited as the sole reason he was better than Han.
     
  23. BookExogorth

    BookExogorth Jedi Master star 4

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    May 4, 2017
    Thank you, J7Luke. Thank you. I don't agree with all, but I appreciate the fact that you're separating.
    [face_laugh] Han's ability to pod race.

    Fun fact: if I recall correctly, Luke won a pod race at one point.
     
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  24. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I'd say Vader by a thin margin.
     
  25. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Han. Easily. Not even a force user...so uses his smarts (flying into the asteroid field, hiding on the back of the Destroyer, using canyons to destroy enemy fighters etc).

    Have to say, though, Han may not even be the best Falcon pilot.

    Lando's efforts in Jedi underrated. Flew into the DS.