Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Master Endz-One, Nov 16, 2017.
Anybody change their minds, after watching the Solo trailer ?
Nah Vader has the force on his side.
Haven't seen better piloting than Chewie's in TLJ.
The Better question and fairer one is who is a better pilot: Poe or Han?
even if Poe is from the ST they both lack the force (or most of it)
No, being the Chosen One makes him the best IMO. Vader's piloting in the new canon comics alone is fearsome.
Han Solo has never really been a good pilot
I was just a smuggler with a lot of luck
Based on the films alone it would seem Vader was much more accomplished.
Wait, do you mean Vader or Anakin? There is a difference. Many replies here are in regard to pre-Vader Anakin. But the original question was OT Vader vs. Han, no?
If we take OT Vader, we don't really see much of his skills as a pilot, as he only pilots a spaceship once (sorry if I left out Rogue One - I haven't seen it yet), and there he didn't do much more than follow the Rebel fighters into the trench and shoot them down. When his wingman crashed into his TIE he managed to recover control, but that may mostly have been luck. He could have hit the trench wall but was lucky enough to be pushed outside the trench instead. I think even for a Sith there was not enough time to react in a damaged out-of-control fighter. It was a matter of split seconds only. Vader may have reacted fast enough, but not his ship. The best pilot is only as good as his ship.
PT Anakin now is a different matter. Personally I feel he was the better pilot then. Besides we know he can fly all kinds of ships, while we see Han really only fly the Falcon. After years of practice he knew his ship's every single strength and weakness. OK, he flew the Imperial shuttle with Chewie, but there didn't seem to be any challenge, no battles involved. And when they passed Vader's ship at Endor it seems Chewie did most of the flying, Han just sat there. Would he have been able to handle so many different ships like Anakin did? I doubt it. So for me Anakin would be the better pilot, PT Anakin, not OT Vader. In the OT era, probably Han. Vader had lost many of his piloting and lightsaber skills since his defeat on Mustafar.
One more thing, Han always had a co-pilot while Anakin/Vader could fly very well on his own!
Vader doesn't fly a TIE in RO. But Vader is still Anakin and thus he's still a good pilot, just because he's often being ferried around.
Indeed, he's treated like a member of the Royal family in that regard.
Most here are talking about Vader had the same force Piloting skills as ROTS Anakin did, that's simply not true. When Anakin lost a big percentage of his limbs, so did his connection to the force, he's not nearly as good a Pilot as he used to be. I think ROTS Anakin would have sensed Solo in the Battle of Yavin and showed more Piloting skills ( Vader was still a great Pilot ).
Another point is Vader was trying to find ways to become more powerful and overthrow the Emperor. In order for you to become more powerful you have to seek power and train that skill. The Emperor was sending Vader on missions, stopping Vader from becoming more powerful than him. Vader didn't practice his Piloting skills as much as his connection to the force, fighting styles to fit his armor, ways to alleviate the pain and strategies to hunt down Jedi and put down Rebels. Han Solo put most of his time into mastering one skill and that's Piloting. In the OT movies you consistently see Han performing miracles to escape, I didn't see much from Vader.
Other thing is Vader's reflexes and body didn't move as fast, due to the suit. This gives Han more of an advantage. Everytime you saw Vader chasing Han, Han escaped against incredible odds. The only time you saw them in a air fighting, Han got the jump on Vader and almost killed him, saving Like to help destroy the Death Star.
When Han was leaving Leia and the Rebellion knew they were losing an incredible asset.
I know most say Han needed a co pilot, but that's because the type of ship he flew. Anakin had co pilots in certain ships in the PT. Anakin was telling Obi-Wan what to do, when rescuing Palpatine.
Vader did not lose any of his ability with the force. That might have been true in legends, but not in canon.
Legends doesn't mean it's not Cannon, Disney takes part of Legends and makes it Cannon. Legends stories aren't Cannon, but as they said in Rebels some legends are true.
Example: In Rebels they made Thrawn, The Star Forge and the Mandalorian Wars Cannon.
The force works runs through living organisms. With a big percentage of Vader's limbs missing, his nerves severed it makes sense Vader's potential has diminished. Vader also has to concentrate on his pain, instead of all his attention to surroundings. If Vader reached his full potential, he would have been stronger than the Emperor.
Here's what Wookieepedia has :
The Emperor ordered the medical droids to keep him awake during the agonizing surgery so the pain would fuel his rage, and therefore his power. His new robotic extremities were updated versions of the same technology that transformed General Grievous into a cyborg. Though he would still remain extremely powerful, Sidious knew that Vader's injuries had robbed him of much of his Force potential. In addition, both Vader and one of the medical droids, DD-13/HK, speculated that Vader's reconstruction may have been deliberately shoddy; a ploy by Sidious to prevent Vader from rebelling against him.
Anakin/Vader.. The Force definitely gives him an edge.
Yes, this is something I already addressed above.
Could Obi-Wan as a force spirit prevent Darth Vader from sensing Solo, Chewie, and the Falcon in the Battle of Yavin?
I doubt it. When Ben was still alive he couldn't conceal his presence on the DS. We have no evidence that a force spirit is more powerful than a living Jedi. And even if he could, it probably wouldn't have mattered to Vader. He didn't see the Falcon as a real threat. He may have seen a non-fighter enemy ship on his instruments, but felt save enough in the trench with his 2 wingmen. That was only a freighter anyway, certainly no match for Vader's special advanced TIE. And he would have expected other TIE to take care of the Falcon.
Vader was too busy focusing on Luke to sense a disturbance in the Force warning him of the attack by the Falcon. That's why when the TIE on his starboard side blew up, he was genuinely surprised. That doesn't make Han a better pilot.
“IF YOU STRIKE ME DOWN, I SHALL BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY IMAGINE.”
Why didn't the sensors on any of the TIE Fighters detect the Falcon sneaking up behind them? What about spotters and sensors on the Death Star as well. How did the Falcon, big freighter, get the jump on Darth Vader and his wing men for a total surprise attack.
Han Solo is one hell of a pilot.
That's what HE said! He was quite obviously just taunting Vader. We have no evidence in any of the movies that that was actually the case! So to become much more powerful all a Jedi has to do is die? I doubt that. And wouldn't that be any Sith's dream? Think of all those dead Sith. Being now all-powerful they could easily have killed the remaining Jedi themselves. No need for a clone army, no need for Vader searching for Luke for years.
See my comment above, where I already gave my theory of the situation.
Although I hate to say it, but here is where "from a certain point of view" really fit the situation: To be capable to guide your "successor" (Luke) across space and time, freed from the limitations of a physical body was "more powerful", assuming that Obi-Wan believed that he had outlived his physical usefulness.
Given the context I understood that a Sith Lord would just die and not come back.
Solo seemed to have used the Falcon's boosters to get to the position above the trench. I believe that the entire Death Star went into a sensor and communications blackout the moment the firing mechanism got warmed up (perhaps standard procedure), thus nobody warned the TIE fighters of a fast approaching object.
OK, you have a point here. As a spiritual guide that can appear in any place he chooses being a ghost certainly does have advantages . As a direct adversary for Vader, maybe less so. But you are right, Obi-Wan being able to advise Luke and guide him to Yoda, also to persuade Yoda to train Luke, he did have an important role in defeating the Emperor!
The Death Star didn't consider a YT-1300 freighter to be a threat any more than the X-Wings and the Y-Wings. The script describes it as the Falcon swooping in at the TIE's which causes Vader's wing man to react as he does, before Han and Chewie pull up.
1. In TESB, Yoda states that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. In the script and novelization for ROTS, Yoda realizes that the ability to retain his identity upon death and pass on his knowledge to another, is a power far greater than what he or the Sith were capable of. In other words, Obi-wan is more powerful because he will help Luke just like Yoda will, through the act of passing on knowledge.
2. In TLJ, Yoda was capable of causing some lighting to strike the Temple on Ach To.
So you think Obi-Wan was just bluffing Vader. I've never heard
I have a theory Obi-Wan and Yoda as spirits may have been able to limit Vader and Palpatine's abilities in specific crucial moments to strip them of certain special advantages without either Sith being aware of it.
This is really a topic for a new thread. The stuff you mention about Yoda in The Last Jedi and certain Sith abilities we see in the prequels, as well as Luke's powers in The Last Jedi make me think this is a possibility and something Luke's role in Episode 9 could directly explore.
If you pay close attention to the Falcon's arrival over the trench, you'll notice Han dove down out of the sun. That's been a staple of dogfight sneak attacks since before the Red Baron. Apparently that tactic is still an effective way to confuse sensors as well as eyeballs.