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CT Better Pilot, Vader or Han ????

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Master Endz-One, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    But if you freeze-frame the last images of the scene, that sun (or star) has suddenly disappeared, thus rather implying a booster flare than a sun.

    It's correct that the genuine screenplay from March 15, 1976 states "Out of the sun charges Han Solo in his pirate mantor-ship heading right for the tie ships", yet that reference was eliminated in the 'public' (polished) version of the screenplay in 1979, perhaps because the final VFX suggested otherwise:

    "The Millennium Falcon heads right at the two TIE fighters. It’s a collision course."
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  2. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Basically, yes. Obi-Wan has been known to "bend" the truth at times. Why not do that when fighting an enemy? There are many examples of adversaries in a lighsaber duel "bragging" or at least exaggerating their own powers and skills.
    It really doesn't look like a booster to me. I'm pretty sure it's a sun. A booster would be in the engine at the back of the ship. But here we see the Falcon directly from the front. I could be wrong, but a booster wouldn't cause a flare effect like this.
    [​IMG]
    As the Falcon moves closer to the camera the sun "disappears" only because it's blocked out/eclipsed by the ship ;)
    We know the Falcon does have boosters from that scene in ESB when Han turns around and heads towards the star destroyer. That effect looks pretty different to me.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    No, the glare should still be visible but instantly vanishes, check it out at 1:34 minutes:

     
  4. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    I see what you mean. The glare does vanish abruptly. Still, I always interpreted that as due to the ship's speed towards the camera. The Falcon moves in FAST, so the glare would be gone in an instant, not gradually. The instant the glare vanishes is the exact moment when the "partial eclipse" becomes a "total eclipse", meaning the Falcon's relative size has become large enough to completely cover the sun.
    It's different with a total solar eclipse on earth where we still see the corona. The moon's relative size is not big enough to block that out as well. Also there is an atmosphere. But in total vacuum there would be no glare once the light source is totally blocked out. I admit I'm not an expert in physics or astronomy, but this is how I personally interpret the scene.[face_dunno]
    I'm only judging by the look of it of course. It would be interesting to hear from Lucas or anyone else involved in shooting that scene.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    IMHO that's the polished public script that appeared 1979 in The Art of Star Wars, i.e. the reference to "out of the sun" was deliberately discarded (as was the allusion that the Vader Antilles scene happened in the "cockpit" corridor of the Tantive IV which misled the Rogue One filmmakers).
     
  6. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017

    Vader reacted faster than the Troopers. Vader was put in a bad position, having to choose between shooting down Luke and dying. Since Vader believed the Force to be more powerful than the Death Star, his choice was obvious. Han proved his Piloting genius throughout the OT, we don't know what Han went through to get to that point in Yavin. Maybe the Empire's censors were set to scan Republic Fighters or Han being a sneaky smuggler has technology that makes it harder for the Empire to pick up the Falcon's signature.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I thought Vader's look around was immediately after Han shot one down - and he didn't really "choose to not shoot down Luke"
    As I recall it, the sequence went

    Vader's guns begin to fire and track toward Luke.
    Han's laser bolts take down Vader's starboard wingman.
    Vader looks around saying "What?!"
    Camera shows Han swooping in "Yahoo!"
    Vader's port wingman panics, crashes into Vader, and then crashes into the wall of the trench
    Vader is sent spinning away from the Death Star by the collision.
     
  8. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017

    You're right it was, I was trying to edit it before anyone saw my mistake lol.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    EXT. SPACE AROUND THE DEATH STAR

    The Millennium Falcon heads right at the two TIE fighters. It's a collision course.

    INT. WINGMAN'S COCKPIT

    The wingman spots the pirateship coming at him and warns the Dark Lord.

    WINGMAN:
    "Look out!"

    EXT. DEATH STAR TRENCH

    Vader's wingman panics at the sight of the oncoming pirate starship and veers radically to one side, colliding with Vader's TIE fighter in the process. Vader's wingman crashes into the side wall of the trench and explodes. Vader's damaged ship spins out of the trench with a damaged wing.


    What's not clear in the final film is that Han is actually playing a game of chicken with Vader and the pilot. The pilot blinks, but Vader doesn't. Vader only loses because of the pilot.
     
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  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The Falcon does have shields though. If they're strong enough, Vader and his wingman are going to be clobbered anyway.
     
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  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    I agree that we'd be looking at different boosters (i.e. ANH just one but all of them in ESB).

    I just found a GIF that probably better illustrates why I don't think it's a sun but rather a single booster:

    [​IMG]

    Look at it a dozen times and speak after me "It's not the sun but a booster, it's not the sun..."
    :D
     
  12. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Sorry Hija! Still have to disagree with you on this one... it's a sun not a booster :p
     
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    True, but if Vader plows right into the cockpit, he'd take Han and Chewie with him. Remember that he used to laugh in the face of danger.
     
  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    ...10...11... 12. It's the sun.
     
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  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    While I'm not convinced it's the sun for the reasons I mentioned, I nevertheless participated in another message board discussion yesterday and realized (based on the Alliance briefing Death Star schematics and the location of the trench on the 'dark side' of the Death Star with the propulsion dish at the equator) that Yavin's sun would be at the back of the pilots in those pivotal scenes, i.e. where you gents assume it to be. [face_peace]
     
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  16. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Vindication! How sweet it is! [face_peace]
     
  17. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    The problem is, as is the case with most movies, that lighting is something that is rarely considered when shooting a sequence. When we see the X-Wings next to Yavin the sun is somewhere to the right. The trench is also pretty much lit from the same direction, meaning "west" when we assume the Rebels fly "north" towards the target. But in all other situations lighting is rather random, often contradictory. In some scenes different spaceship models and/or planets are lit from different directions. Let's take Luke in the trench as an example. His fighter when seen from the outside is in the shadow of the trench wall. But when we see Luke close up his face is lit from the sun, from the right, while actually the only illumination should be the reflection of the right trench wall, meaning it should be from the left.
    I know I'm really nitpicking here, but since we are analyzing the position of the sun here anyway I might as well mention that. When we really look at that shot with the Falcon your theory actually makes sense, that the sun can't be behind the ship since it's already lit from above. If that sun were the only lighting source then the ship should appear completely dark, because backlit. So obviously there has to be another sun. I have no idea if any script ever mentioned how many suns the Yavin system has, but at least in the movie we aren't shown that there necessarily is only one.
    So I guess neither of us has a way to prove our point, unless of course there is an official source that confirms either one. I personally put this down to the effects team not paying attention to such minor details, considering the fact that the average viewer wouldn't notice anyway. It's the same thing with all daylight scenes on Tatooine. The system has twin suns, so technically there should be TWO shadows to every object in any scene. But I realize that such details would have been too time-consuming, considering the movie already had budget problems. Let's just agree that no special effect is 100% perfect or logical. This would be asking too much of action-based movies like SW.
     
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  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Considering that Yavin is a giant planet, and very close - maybe reflected light from Yavin can provide an adequate light source?
     
  19. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Good point! However Yavin is reddish orange, so light reflected from it would have that sort of color rather than the white light we see on the ships and DS surface.
     
  20. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    I agree, it's just that in this particular case it coincidentally works (although I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the guys at ILM aimed for continuity):

    [​IMG]
    Already the approach scene suggested that the side opposite of the superweapon dish is illuminated by Yavin's sun (compatible with the shots of Yavin). And all the battle VFX were abundantly lit, suggesting that these scenes took place on this side.

    [​IMG]
    And - of course - it's a nice verification that the Death Star does have a propulsion dish on its otherwise never seen side:

    [​IMG]

    Good thing that the Rogue One filmmakers decided to feature the vector graphic schematics of the DS as seen in ANH. ;)
     
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  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's definitely the star in the background. The Falcon completely osbscures it so it disappears. Not a flare.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Not necessarily. The light reflected off our atmosphere and the oceans doesn't produce noticeably blue light on the surface of the moon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  23. Mandalorian Riddler

    Mandalorian Riddler Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2018
    Anakin/Vader for me, could carry a space battle and the tactics were always on point, he could do what most could only dream of doing and no matter what ship it was, he'll milk that ship to its limits to get best out of it.
     
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  24. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    This is true of course. I had not considered that.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It would be a bit hard to tell given how much the sun's light drowns it out. The only times we can see our moon's nearside lit up only by the Earth's light, is new moon - when it is very close to the Sun and thus harder to observe safely (Sun's light drowns it out even when Sun is below horizon - twilight still being pretty bright).

    Still, at half phase, if you're carefully only looking at the side not lit up by the Sun (maybe with big binoculars or a telescope?), you might be able to make out the "Earthshine".