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Between PT and OT---Did Qui Gonn tell Yoda they had it all wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by -nada-, Jun 9, 2005.

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  1. -nada-

    -nada- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2004
    I will be the first to admit that I'm not a Star Wars expert, though I try. :p I've been thinking about something and I'd like some input from people who know a bit more about the concept of the Force and midis.

    Did the Jedi have it all wrong when it came to their beliefs about the Force, the teaching of the midis and all? Did this mistaken concept of the way things were have anything to do with the decay of the Jedi order? And was one of the things Qui Gonn communicated to Yoda from beyond the fact that they had it all wrong? Was that why the Force seemed to be explained in a different manner in the OT---because the Jedi's concept had been changed? Had Qui Gonn enlightened them?

    I hope I'm not being too confusing. I hope you understand what I'm asking. :)

    -nada-
     
  2. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    The Jedi were set in their ways, the lessons were that of dogma, they wouldn't allow the individual to think--the individual became part of the masses. For that reason, they failed. Most of the Jedi, like Obi-Wan followed the council's orders without question (which makes him no better than Clone Troopers.) Jedi Knights like Qui-Gon, Dooku and Anakin were more of individuals. They made their own decisions, judgements and sometimes went beyond their orders. That is what a true Jedi should do. Qui-Gon followed the living force, rather than the council. It was his individuality which made him special, powerful and in the end immortal.

    The Jedi Order had remained the same for thousands of years. So while the galaxy changed, they stayed the same. When the changes began to destroy them, they weren't able to handle it--and they were crushed.

    At the end of Revenge, Yoda realizes that he has been mistaken. When Qui-Gon communicates with him, the green master becomes humble and accepts the failure.

    Anakin destroys the Jedi Order, then the Sith Order. What remains is Luke--Skywalker builds a new Jedi order.

    -Seldon
     
  3. -nada-

    -nada- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Thanks, Darth Seldon. :)

    -nada-
     
  4. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Obi-Wan followed the council's orders without question

    Yet the most important decision in his life nearly required him to disobey the Council, which he would've done (training Anakin). He questions the council, but his discipline and humility allows him to trust in the wisdom of his superiors, there's nothing wrong with that - and to say they're no better than Clonetroopers is an insult that none of them deserve.

    There is a reason why the Jedi confer to the council, you can't have people with such abilities running around the galaxy doing what they want. Anakin tried that and it destroyed his life, the same with Dooku, and George Lucas says Qui-Gon was, essentially, wrong in cheating Anakin to be freed.

    Here's what Qui-Gon tells Yoda:

    YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...
    QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.
    YODA: Eternal consciousness.
    QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.
    YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.
    QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.
    YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become


    Neither of the Jedi state that anyone was wrong or mistaken about anything - Yoda simply failed to stop the Sith. The only lesson that Yoda missed out on was one that could only be learned through becoming one with the force - Qui-Gon did this for him, for all of them (not saying he died on purpose, because he didn't).

    In the face of the Sith Lords, Mace/Yoda and Kenobi ALL learn that the code was faulty - they didn't have to be killed for this to register with them. That's the whole tragedy behind Anakin turning on the Jedi, that it wasn't necessary. He changed the Jedi Order, without knowing it, by simply uncovering the Sith Lord - he could've fulfilled his prophecy by siding with Mace instead of Sidious.

    He was meant to change the Order, not to destroy it.

    - O_F
     
  5. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    To change the order, Anakin had to destroy it. It was all part of the prophecy of the chosen one. To bring balance to the force, he was destined to destroy both orders, and in their ruin--a new and stronger one would be built. The Jedi and the Sith didn't know this--until it was too late.

    Qui-Gon learns that he has to let go, and allow himself to be consumed by the living force.
    Yoda failed to stop the Sith, but he also failed to understand that the Jedi Order has to change--to reform to meet the growing demands of an ever changing galaxy. This much is covered in the Revenge of the Sith novel.

    -Seldon
     
  6. -nada-

    -nada- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2004
    To change the order, Anakin had to destroy it. It was all part of the prophecy of the chosen one. To bring balance to the force, he was destined to destroy both orders, and in their ruin--a new and stronger one would be built. The Jedi and the Sith didn't know this--until it was too late.

    Could this be the reasoning behind Yoda saying that perhaps the prophesy had been misread? Were they so arrogant that it never occured to them that they were to meet the same destiny as the Sith in order for things to be set right?
     
  7. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    The Jedi were set in their ways, the lessons were that of dogma, they wouldn't allow the individual to think--the individual became part of the masses. For that reason, they failed.
    I swear, I really don't understand this.
    The idea of having dogma is not inherently wrong. Absolute truth does exist.
    And dogma does not automatically prevent the individual from thinking for himself.
    The entire point of becoming an apprentice to to learn and be able to understand why the dogma exists in the first place.
    To understand it and then accept it. Not just accept it, even if it doesn't make sense. That's completely wrong. Anakin never understood the Jedi teachings the way he was meant to. OBI-WAN: "I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you."
    That's why he fell to the dark side. It wasn't because "the Jedi were corrupt". They weren't. Palpatine just convinced him that they were. The Jedi were simply serving a Republic that was being corrupted from the inside out. And there was really nothing they could do to stop it.

    The Jedi Order had remained the same for thousands of years. So while the galaxy changed, they stayed the same. When the changes began to destroy them, they weren't able to handle it--and they were crushed.
    What began to change? The rise of the Sith? There really was nothing that they could do to stop that. That's the mastery behind Palpatine's plan. He had them locked into a checkmate position.

    Jedi Knights like....Dooku and Anakin were more of individuals. They made their own decisions, judgements and sometimes went beyond their orders.
    Sure....and look where they ended up because of it. :rolleyes:

    To change the order, Anakin had to destroy it.
    No, he didn't have to destroy it. The Jedi were not contributing the the unbalance of the Force. The imbalance in the Force was caused by the Sith. The Dark Side is imbalance. Evil is not a force of its own. It is only a corruption, destruction, or lack of good. Evil cannot exist in and of itself. Evil cannot exist without good, without something to corrupt. But good can exist without evil. That is where balance and peace are found. The Light Side is the state of natural balance. The Dark Side destroys that.
    Light Side = Good = Natural = Order = Unifying = Normal = Balance
    Dark Side = Evil = Unnatural = Disordering = Destruction of Good = Unbalanced
    Did Anakin have to destroy the Jedi to bring balance? No. Did he do it anyway? Yes. Did the Jedi Order ultimately survive only to emerge stronger as a result of Anakin's actions? Yes. But the Jedi Order was not part of the evil. It was very good. But it was serving a Republic that was corrupting from the inside out, and Palpatine had planned his revenge so perfectly that there was essentially nothing at all that they could do to stop him.

    Neither of the Jedi state that anyone was wrong or mistaken about anything - Yoda simply failed to stop the Sith.
    Exactly. Because Palpatine had organized and pulled off the whole thing so perfectly that they couldn't see it happening.

    In the face of the Sith Lords, Mace/Yoda and Kenobi ALL learn that the code was faulty....
    WHAT was faulty about the Jedi Code? I really don't understand this argument at all....

    That's the whole tragedy behind Anakin turning on the Jedi, that it wasn't necessary....he could've fulfilled his prophecy by siding with Mace instead of Sidious.
    Exactly.

    He changed the Jedi Order, without knowing it, by simply uncovering the Sith Lord -
    He changed WHAT? What needed to be changed?

    Yoda failed to stop the Sith, but he also failed to understand that the Jedi Order has to change--to reform to meet the growing demands of an ever changing galaxy.
    Same question. What did the Jedi Order need to reform?
    Everyone keeps saying "they needed to change" without saying what they were wrong about in the first place.
     
  8. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    To change the order, Anakin had to destroy it

    No it isn't, that's the tragedy. You're taking the tragic choice of Anakin and completely nullifying it, you're stripping it of any real relevance because Anakin "didn't have a choice" in doing so according to that theory.

    Anakin never understood the Jedi teachings the way he was meant to.

    Exactly

    AotC went out of its way to prove this, "Compassion, which 'I' would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life". Anakins problem was that he never looked at the big scope of anything, only at what mattered to him and the persons he cared about. And even in that aspect he managed to ruin it.

    "I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine, 1999


    His turn wasn't meant to happen, in fact - it did everything that Anakin wasn't supposed to do, which is disrupt the balance. Destroying the Sith only balances it, NOT destroying the Jedi.

    WHAT was faulty about the Jedi Code? I really don't understand this argument at all....

    It wasn't necessarily faulty, but it wasn't the end to all means - that's why Mace, Yoda and Kenobi all make it a point to kill the Sith. Not apprehend, not defeat - but kill. Obi-Wan was supposed to kill Anakin, and Mace and Yoda were supposed to kill Palpatine.

    Even though Obi-Wan reveals that the Jedi are "sworn to destroy the Sith", it's not a Jedis trait to actually destroy a life itself. Especially, in Mace and Obi-Wans case, a combatant already defeated - Mace was right to strike down Palpatine, and it could be argued that Kenobi was wrong in not finishing off Anakin.

    My own post contradicted my "code is faulty" line, i shouldnt've said that.

    IMO the only "failure" of the Jedi, in general, is that their PT-focus lies with the future - not with the living force. But the suggestion that their slaughter was necessary is a scary, and flawed, one.

    - O_F
     
  9. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Well said, Obi_Frans.

    I think it's a misconception that the Jedi had it all wrong during the PT. Certainly, there are areas where they DID have their collective heads up their ***es, but I think that was mainly in relation to being manipulated by Palpatine. Not in their ways of compassion nor in their nobility as Jedi.

    In the end, Qui-Gon does bring new ideas to the table and the Jedi do take a less rigid method in training Luke, but many of the "old ways" resurface in Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT - and they are established methods that exist for a reason.

    It IS reckless for Luke to run off and help his friends, the same as it always was for Anakin, and sometimes even Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were reckless. Qui-Gon DID make mistakes in the PT, and he paid the price for them. It all worked out in the end, of course, as the next generation works to restore balance, and Anakin, back to the more natural course.

    All Qui-Gon's lessons appear to be, at the end of ROTS, are the path to becoming immortal and avoiding death. I don't think he entirely reshapes the Jedi way of life.

    The implication in ROTS is that Yoda has been talking to Qui-Gon for a while. If so, not even Qui-Gon told them that Palpatine was Darth Sidious, which to me suggests that he isn't all-knowing. It's merely a means to retain your identity, nothing more.

    The Jedi do adjust and adapt, but they are still as just and true as they always were. That they were purged was a lack of compassion by the Sith, not an act of compassion by the Force.
     
  10. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    It wasn't necessarily faulty, but it wasn't the end to all means - that's why Mace, Yoda and Kenobi all make it a point to kill the Sith. Not apprehend, not defeat - but kill. Even though Obi-Wan reveals that the Jedi are "sworn to destroy the Sith", it's not a Jedis trait to actually destroy a life itself.
    Right. But I don't think that it's inherently contrary to the Jedi Code. The Jedi are sworn to protect life. And, until they found the Sith again (or rather, until the Sith found them), they had almost always been able to do so without killing. But there comes a point, even for a Jedi, when it is impossible to always protect life with non-lethal means, and it may unfortunately become necessary to take the life of an unstoppable criminal in order to protect the innocent lives of others. The Jedi Order under the Old Republic never had to deal with this type of situation before, and now they are being forced to on an almost daily basis, starting with the Clone Wars, and then the Sith threat. It's not breaking the Code, but rather being forced to uncover the moral loophole that had previouly been unknown and unneeded.

    Especially, in Mace and Obi-Wans case, a combatant already defeated - Mace was right to strike down Palpatine, and it could be argued that Kenobi was wrong in not finishing off Anakin.
    I don't really want to get into that discussion all over again, but yes, and no. Palpatine wasn't defeated, and Anakin really was. The only way that was ever really going to stop Palpatine was to kill him. There were no realistically lesser means. But Obi-Wan came as close as he felt necessary, and still had mercy upon his overwhelmingly defeated opponent. If Yoda had succeeded, and Palpatine never shown up, Anakin would almost certainly have died right there on Mustafar. Obi-Wan was simply giving Anakin way more mercy than he deserved. Was he wrong to do so? No. But Obi-Wan took the higher moral ground by choosing the more virtuous action, thus giving Anakin one more final chance to set things right.
     
  11. Bremerton

    Bremerton Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2003
    It's a little sick to suggest that the Jedi had to be killed as part of the prophecy. That's just gross.

    But it's also wrong to suggest that the Jedi in the PT had everything right. Only because the Jedi were blind and weak were they able to be decieved and destroyed by the Sith. I believe that their teachings against attachment were what was wrong. The Force flows through the physical world, so it is impossible to understand the Living Force without being attached to the physical world as well as the Force. That is why Qui-Gonn is able to retain his identity in the physical world, he is equally immersed in both the Force and the world. And that is also why the Jedi are blind to the approach of the Sith. They are simply to far removed from reality to be able to recognize Palpatine's intentions.

    Remember that the Jedi in the PT think Anakin is too old to train. They want to get Jedi at childbirth, before they have any attachments. In the OT, they "wait until the time is right" to train Luke. And then Obi wants Luke to leave his attachments, leave Owen and Beru, and in ESB they don't want him to follow Han and Leia. Attachment is still dangerous if it is selfish, but needed to follow the Living Force.

    Good and evil lie in intent. Followers of the Dark Side and wise Jedi like Qui-Gonn and later Obi and Yoda, both completely understand the Living Force. The Dark Side is selfish and power hungry, and so the ultimate powers they obtain are to cheat death and to create life. They need these things to keep power for themselves. The Jedi are concerned with the greater good, and so the ultimate power they obtain is to retain identity after death, which they use to help the greater good. But while the PT Jedi are concerned with the greater good, they are out of touch, they don't understand the Living Force.



    .02c
     
  12. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Its never really said plainly in TPM, but you get the feeling that Qui-Gonn, contoversial Jedi as he was and denied a seat on the council consequently, pretty much knew that the Jedi were on a course towards sorrow. I believe his " be mindful of the living force " flew in the face of millenia of Jedi teaching. So in essence you could say that all the while Qui-Gon knew the Jedi had it all wrong.
     
  13. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    Only because the Jedi were blind and weak were they able to be decieved and destroyed by the Sith. And that is also why the Jedi are blind to the approach of the Sith. They are simply to far removed from reality to be able to recognize Palpatine's intentions.
    I disagree. The Jedi didn't do much wrong, but rather the Sith were just too smart to be uncovered. They worked their way in so perfectly that there was absolutely nothing the Jedi could to until it was too late to stop their plan from being fulfilled.

    I believe that their teachings against attachment were what was wrong. The Force flows through the physical world, so it is impossible to understand the Living Force without being attached to the physical world as well as the Force. But while the PT Jedi are concerned with the greater good, they are out of touch, they don't understand the Living Force.
    You don't have to be attatched to understand. You can study and use the Force in the material world to understand the presence of the Living Force there. Key flaw here: Attatchments are emotional, not physical.

    That is why Qui-Gon is able to retain his identity in the physical world, he is equally immersed in both the Force and the world.
    Qui-Gon himself after death says: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self." So I don't quite see your point. Attatchments create a danger, but of course they are not inherently wrong. They may lead to evil, and they certainly do make it much easier to fall, but they don't have to. The Jedi simply avoid them in order to make themselves more stable as a whole. To live as a Jedi without attatchments makes it much easier to follow the path of virtue. It's still good. To live as a Jedi with (a certain level of) attatchments is much harder, but can be accomplished. And it's certainly more dangerous for some Jedi than it is for others....most Jedi cannot successfully do it. The teaching does not matter though. It doesn't make the Old Jedi Order as a whole bad, though. It simply makes the Jedi who can accomplish it better. Accomplish with no attatchments = Good. Accomplish with (a certain level of) attatchments = harder, more dangerous, but potentially better result. Neither philosophy is wrong, though. They just have different pros and cons. The Old Jedi Order had simply chosen the more reliable way, and they did make exceptions if needed.
     
  14. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    But it's also wrong to suggest that the Jedi in the PT had everything right. Only because the Jedi were blind and weak were they able to be decieved and destroyed by the Sith. I believe that their teachings against attachment were what was wrong. The Force flows through the physical world, so it is impossible to understand the Living Force without being attached to the physical world as well as the Force. That is why Qui-Gonn is able to retain his identity in the physical world, he is equally immersed in both the Force and the world. And that is also why the Jedi are blind to the approach of the Sith. They are simply to far removed from reality to be able to recognize Palpatine's intentions.

    The Jedi ended up being right on the whole attachment thing. That was the fatal flaw for why Anakin turned, because he couldn't let go of his attachments. In the story Lucas wrote, this was wrong and it was always wrong.

    It was the Jedi who had always exhibited compassionate and selfless love for everyone and everything. And it's that type of love that wins out in the end.

    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."
    - George Lucas, Rolling Stone (June 2, 2005)
    Obi-Wan and Yoda don't entirely change on this front, either. Attachments are still dangerous. They hold out telling Luke that Leia is his sister, because they know the danger this will cause to her if Luke becomes possessive about her or Anakin's attachments cause him to turn her into a Sith.

    In the end, it is Luke who changes the order, although that all happens in the EU after ROTJ. As far as the movies are concerned, when ROTJ ends, Lucas' story is still ultimately about how those attachments are dangerous.


    Now, Qui-Gon is able to retain his identity through the complete release of self.
    YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

    QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.
    So, again here we have attachment being discouraged. The more-enlightened (as far as learning this skill goes) Qui-Gon shows the Jedi that the key to eternal life actually lies in the complete release of everything including attachments all together.

    So, where, exactly were the Jedi wrong? I think that lies more along the lines of trust and manipulation by Palpatine. That Anakin felt the need to hide things from them in the first place and that they centered too much on their fears. By the time Yoda dies, they let go and are more open to trying new ways. Qui-Gon was all about letting go of the rigidness and bureaucracy and structure.

    Some things change, but others stay the same in the end.


    I guess masterjedi touched on this one, but ah well. :)
     
  15. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Its never really said plainly in TPM, but you get the feeling that Qui-Gonn, contoversial Jedi as he was and denied a seat on the council consequently, pretty much knew that the Jedi were on a course towards sorrow. I believe his " be mindful of the living force " flew in the face of millenia of Jedi teaching. So in essence you could say that all the while Qui-Gon knew the Jedi had it all wrong.

    I don't think that's necessarily true. It's Qui-Gon who has the "Hey, everything is going to be all right!" attitude.

    If anyone had a feeling of inevitable doom, it was Yoda with all of his "This boy is dangerous" and in AOTC with his "The Dark Side clouds everything" talk. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, was never concerned with the future, and especially with anything negative that could happen in the future.

    In fact, the very first lines spoken in TPM deal with this very subject. Obi-Wan senses the Dark Side all around them while Qui-Gon "doesn't sense anything." Obi-Wan and Yoda were right. In a way, Qui-Gon was, too.
     
  16. Bremerton

    Bremerton Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2003
    I refuse to believe two things:

    1. That there was nothing wrong with the Jedi teaching. If the Sith plot was perfect and completely unstoppable, that would be stupid. I get the definite impression that the Sith had been lying low and waiting for the opportune moment to take over- ie when the Jedi were weak and ineffectual. You can't hatch a plot right under 10,000 Jedis noses for 15 years if the Jedi are in touch with the Living Force.

    2. That having emotional attachment is a fault. Everybody in the world has emotional attachment. If Anakin was really too old to be trained because he already had emotional attachment (like the Jedi thought), they would not have waited for the 'right time' to teach Luke and Leia. If you equate attachment with possesiveness as opposed to compassion, I understand what you mean, (possesiveness is a fault) but it is possible to have attachment without being possesive.


    Luke shows this at the end of 'Jedi,' first he is very possesive about Leia when he attacks Vader from the shadows screaming, but after he cuts off Vader's hand and throws his saber away, I don't think he loves Leia in a different way, or is any less attached to her emotionally, now he just sees the big picture, and gets rid of his hate towards the one who is going to try to turn Leia, not his attachment towards Leia.

    I also don't care about cut dialogue. If it's not in the movie, it's not worth considering.
     
  17. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    If the Sith plot was perfect and completely unstoppable, that would be stupid.
    No....that would just be incredibly intelligent on the part of the Sith. ;)
    Allow me to attempt to explain the situation for you: Palpatine has the Jedi in a checkmate position. It's already over. He's in the exact position that he needed to be. No matter what they do, he still wins, and they still lose, almost automatically. They just don't know it yet.

    1) If they don't move against him, he wipes them all out and comes up with a good reason to do so.

    2) If they do move against him (and he knows they will, because they will fight to survive), he can turn the public against them and have them wiped out anyway.

    2a) If they just try to arrest him, and refuse to kill him, he can manipulate the Senate to get himself free, paint the Jedi as unjust agressors, and have them all wiped out.

    2b) If they do try to kill him, and Anakin lets them (which he has already made sure won't happen), the public will likely turn against the Jedi all on their own for killing their beloved Chancellor.

    2ba) If they do try to kill him, and Anakin tries to stop them, and fails, Anakin will almost automatically turn to the Dark Side (because he would believe that the only possible way of saving Padme from death had just been stolen away from him by the Jedi) and become the new Sith Lord, then move against all of the Jedi in an attempt to have them wiped out.

    2bb) If they do try to kill him, and Anakin tries to stop them, and succeeds, Palpatine will have gained a new apprentice, and they will attempt to wipe the Jedi Order out of existence together.

    That having emotional attachment is a fault.
    It's not that having attachment is a fault, but that it's simply a hinderence. To have emotion is to be human, but you cannot allow your emotions to control you. You must control them instead. Can you live as a good person with emotional attachment? Yes. But is it essential? No. In fact, it's much much easier to live the life of heroic virtue without it. It's just that they're are dangerous. You're going to have to let go of them all eventually anyway. It's not a fault, but simply an imperfection.

    All_Powerful_Jedi: That was an awesome post dealing with attatchment. Much much better and much more clearly written than what I was trying to say. Excellent. =D=
     
  18. Bremerton

    Bremerton Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2003
    Well by the time Mace goes to arrest Palps, of course he has them beaten then. But the Jedi were blind to him in TPM, 15 years earlier, when he was just a Senator. I'd like to see you explain how he had them in check mate then. Of course he didn't, they were blind and ineffectual, and not in touch with the Living Force, which is why he was able to become Chancellor, why he was able to create the Clone Army, why he was able to lead both the Seperatists and the Republic, why he was able to grant himself emergency powers, etc.



    It's not that having attachment is a fault, but that it's simply a hinderence. To have emotion is to be human, but you cannot allow your emotions to control you. You must control them instead. Can you live as a good person with emotional attachment? Yes. But is it essential? No. In fact, it's much much easier to live the life of heroic virtue without it. It's just that they're are dangerous. You're going to have to let go of them all eventually anyway. It's not a fault, but simply an imperfection.

    Fault and imperfection are synonymous. They imply there is something wrong with Anakin for having emotional attachments. But for Anakin, a life without attachment was not an option. Had the Jedi allowed him to have attachments, they could have better helped him in "revenge". When Yoda tells Anakin he must let go of people he loves and let them die, maybe he would have listened had more had they taught him of the Living Force earlier.

    You can have attachments without having a fear of loss or a possesive love. Luke proves this.



    You cannot suggest that loving someone is a path to the Dark Side. That's perverted. Anakin could have been married to Padme, and not fallen to the Dark Side.
     
  19. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    But the Jedi were blind to him in TPM, 15 years earlier, when he was just a Senator.
    They're blind to him in TPM because he's blocking them from sensing him. That's a pretty well-established fact. Palpatine's simply so good at concealing his presence, that no Jedi, even if they were to standing in the same room, would be able to sense him there if he didn't want them too. And unitl he revealed himself as the Sith Lord, the Jedi had no valid reason for moving against him. He's just the Supreme Chancellor as far as they're concerned. Luke would have never been able to sense him then either.

    Fault and imperfection are synonymous.
    You're right. Poor choice of wording on my part, but I still can't think of the right word to decscibe the difference. [face_thinking] Can anyone else help me out here?

    They imply there is something wrong with Anakin for having emotional attachments.
    It's not wrong for Anakin to have them, but rather wrong for him to be unwilling to let them go.

    But for Anakin, a life without attachment was not an option.
    If that's true, it's only because Anakin is personally unwilling to consider the possibility as an option. He wants to live with attatchments, and is unwilling to let them go. That's his flaw.

    Had the Jedi allowed him to have attachments, they could have better helped him in "Revenge".
    Anakin never asked them if he could have attatchments. Who knows? They might have let him. They had made all sorts of exceptions for him before now. But he was afraid of potentially losing his power as a Jedi Knight, and was thus unwilling to take the chance. He never asked them, but rather went behind their back and did it anyway. And now he simply has one more secret to keep from the Jedi, only making the situation more and more complicated for himself.

    When Yoda tells Anakin he must let go of people he loves and let them die....
    That's not what Yoda said, though. Yoda said that he must be willing to let go of his attatchments, train himself to be able to do so, and at the same time realize that death is not the worst thing in the world. He didn't try to say "let them die", but rather "do not be afraid of death". And if Anakin had listened, and done what was right over what he wanted to do, everything would have actually turned out all right.

    You can have attachments without having a fear of loss or a possesive love. Luke proves this.
    Can. But it's much harder, and Anakin can't tell the difference like Luke could because he is blinded by his emotions.

    You cannot suggest that loving someone is a path to the Dark Side.
    Absolutely not.
     
  20. MikeSolo

    MikeSolo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2002
    "In the face of the Sith Lords, Mace/Yoda and Kenobi ALL learn that the code was faulty - they didn't have to be killed for this to register with them. That's the whole tragedy behind Anakin turning on the Jedi, that it wasn't necessary. He changed the Jedi Order, without knowing it, by simply uncovering the Sith Lord - he could've fulfilled his prophecy by siding with Mace instead of Sidious.

    He was meant to change the Order, not to destroy it. "

    I agree with you there. It was Anakin's choice help Mace and the Jeid Order or Help Sidious. Within that choice decided his destiny IMO.

    I think Mace told Anakin right before leaving to arrest Palptine. If Anakin was correct about Palptine being a Sith Lord he'd gain his respect.
    I think if Anakin picked to Help Mace and take out Sid/Palp he'd gain Mace's respect.
    The Jedi are't totally navie, they probably suspected something going on between Anakin and Padme. After gaining respect of the Jedi Council, Anakin might changed their view on relationships. Like the one posters said he would of brought about change to the Jedi Order. IMO
    So Qui Gon probably didn't tell Yoda that the Jedi Order was totally wrong but maybe needed to take another look at certian issues like intimate relationships.
     
  21. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    You can have attachments without having a fear of loss or a possesive love. Luke proves this.

    Of course, the Jedi are all attached to each other too - but they, as is Luke, are willing to let them go.

    Luke learns in ESB that he cannot control their destiny, Anakn should've learned this in AotC but instead the opposite happens - he promises himself, and the illusion of his mother, that he'll become so insanely powerful that he'll learn to stop people he cares about from dying.

    Anakin could've left the Jedi Order anytime he wanted to, he would've honoured them by doing so - instead he chooses lies and deceit and, as someones pointed out, tries to eat from both cakes. Lies and deceit aren't healthy.

    You cannot suggest that loving someone is a path to the Dark Side. That's perverted. Anakin could have been married to Padme, and not fallen to the Dark Side.

    Love isn't mutual with attachment.

    Kenobi loves Anakin, he loves Yoda, he loves Mace, he loves all of the Jedi, he loves Qui-Gon - but when Qui-Gon dies, in his arms, he doesn't make some ridiculous claim to "stop everyone he loves from dying", he lets it/him go. Anakin cannot do that, not because he loves more then the Jedi - but because he's greedy.

    - O_F
     
  22. masterjedi747

    masterjedi747 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2004
    Of course, the Jedi are all attached to each other too - but they, as is Luke, are willing to let them go.
    That's it. Thank you, Obi_Frans.
    I think a small part of the problem here is that we have to define "attatchments".
    Many people here are using the word to mean "possessions - be they physical, mental, emotional, etc..."
    But I think it would be more accurate to say that attatchment is "unwilling to let go of your possessions".
    Luke didn't have attatchment, but he did have possessions. And he was ultimately unattatched to them.
    So yes, attatchment is a flaw. It means, by definition, that you are unwilling to let go of what you have.
    But having possessions is not a flaw, simply much harder and more difficult. Possessions are what you have.
    You're not supposed to be "unattatched to your attatchments", but rather "unattatched to your possessions".
    When you are attatched to your possessions, that's when you're in the most danger of falling to the Dark Side.
    So perhaps we could re-word your line there: "Of course, the Jedi are all connected to each other too...."
    Hopefully that made sense. I think we needed to make that distinction, though. :)
     
  23. -nada-

    -nada- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2004
    I think it's a misconception that the Jedi had it all wrong during the PT. Certainly, there are areas where they DID have their collective heads up their ***es, but I think that was mainly in relation to being manipulated by Palpatine. Not in their ways of compassion nor in their nobility as Jedi.

    I'm hoping this is the way it was, All_Powerful_Jedi. :)
     
  24. princethomas

    princethomas Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2001
    When I watch ROTS I feel most sad during the scenes with Obi and Ani. The one where he gives him "the assignment" and the one when they see each other for the last time. What rips my heart out, is that you can tell that Obi knows something is wrong with Ani. He can see it, but he does not have the tools to stop him. I find myself yelling at the screen (in my head of course) Will somebody just give that Kid a HUG!!!!! All of this could be stopped if Obi would just reach out and put his arm around his neck and tell him. I love you bro. Stay with me, its going to be alright. Anakin was raised in a home with emotions hes not like the other cold robot Jedi that will respond to Mace Windu's stern Father approach. Obi was raised that way, but he was also raised by Qui Gon. Obi is stuck in between. He knows that he needs to do something for Anakin, but because he was raised by these weird monks that believe in compassion for everyone but each other, he doesnt know how to help Anakin. All Anakin wants is to feel like someone loves him. Anakin, I love you Bro. Hang in there man, I know your confused but I promise we will figure it out together buddy. Thats what he needed. What he got was. "I sence great confusion in you young skywalker. If what you say is true, you will have gained my trust. Now go waiting the Counsel Chamber until we return"


    errrrrr its frustrating. Its only at the end that Obi finally lets go and acts out of natural emotion and not out of Jedi policy.

    -T
     
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