Big is NOT beautiful...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by The_Emperors_Foot, Jul 18, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Just to follow on the note from QueenDrome, Americans are REALLY overweight (OBESE) compared to other countries, i went to Wal-mart last week and noticed how ALOT of people were riding in those lawn-mower-shopping-carts, which i never see in my country. I live in Mexico and the majority of women have a healthy weight to them, many are overweight but not obese, and i cross the border to the US and most women and men are obese, and it is in my opinion the lack of exercise and plastic food the they eat, i see in the stores alot of "microwaveable", "instant", and "fast" food, and that makes them overweight by far. Americans lack proper nutrition. Last month i went to Paris, France, and i would walk around in the streets and i would literally see not one French native be obese most of them looked like fashion models, the only obeses i saw were american tourists.

    I can say from personal experience that the obeses problem i very much part of the american lifestyle, everything is comfort, even in foods, and that is a very big problem for alot of people, especially in the US, in Paris i must say that most people walked and took the metro or bus to get around, in the US? SUV's and comfortable cars.
  2. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Every single girl was average size with average arms and legs, about size 12-16 (Australian).

    In my experience with male friends, breast size is more important than overall skinniness. They don't mind plump hips or waists that come with reasonably medium or larger breasts. (I'm sure not all guys are breast-oriented, but most of my friends seem to be.)

    And no, I'm not calling men pervs. Liking breasts is perfectly natural. And this should not offend small-breasted women as, overall, what the men I'm friends with most want is acceptance and affection. If they believe you love them as they are and nothing will change that, you're beautiful to them.

    QueenDorme, that makes sense. Lots of prepackaging here - odd, when you consider we have more farmland than probably any single nation.

    Fierce, you switched trains on me, or something. You said, "If you're going to use Harrison Ford and Keanu Reeves as examples of average-looking guys, you're living in a dream world. "

    We were talking about how the looks Hollywood requires of its stars impacts ordinary people - HF and KR were examples of film stars, not ordinary people. You said the demands made on male actors were just as harsh as those made on females. I have continually pointed out that what they ask of men is not unnatural, and what they ask of women is.

    And stars like Calista Flockhart have had success (not sure why they should be begrudged that), but they are constantly being attacked and degraded for their weight, not lauded for it. So I really don't know where you're getting your perceptions from. "

    Callista Flockhart actually has an eating disorder. She is SO skinny that even on TV, she looks like a cadaver. But most actresses who look just a shade too skinny on camera are actually dangerously underweight, and this is obvious if you see them in person OR see many candid photos of them. Kari Russell is another star I have met, whom I noticed looks cute and round faced on the telly, but is actually quite gaunt in person. Jenna Elfman is another.

    And part of my point, which you seem inclined to dismiss because like most people I guess you don't consider that acting and modeling are actual jobs filled by normal human beings, is that we have an entire, very large industry where men might be expected to be buff and get manicures, but women are expected to be dangerously underweight and get cancer-causing breast implants just to see if they can get into film, TV or modeling. This actually direcrtly affects a lot of women, regardless of its impact on regular people who watch them.

    Another reason I used Keanu Reeves as an example - aside from Brad Pitt, he's the only big star I'm aware of who actually lost dangerous amounts of weight (with medical supervision, of course, unlike actresses who are just expected to look that way all the time) for two roles a few years apart. And what's the result of his doing what the females do all the time? All the guys assume he's gay! Yes, even gay guys assume anyone who would alter their body to make a role work must be overly feminine.

    Interesting perception.

    Hey didn't Sly Stalone have to actually gain weight for Cop-land? You are rquired to look the part you play in hollywood. Everything is based on looks. But that doesn't mean it should be an accepted practice.

    Yes, male actors are occasionally asked to put on weight. But if anyone can come with another example of a male actor who LOST serious weight for a role (and was already slim before losing it), I'd like to hear it. Seriously.

    And even so, the females are expected to be dangerously underweight all the time.

    Thanks Chibiangi - good points.
  3. Inari_Icewalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 2
    R2D2-PENA: That isn't true of all Americans. I live in a medium-small sized city, and I walk plenty. I don't have a washer/dryer in my apartment, so I carry things to the laundry - by foot. And it's a nice 10-minute walk with your hands full, too.

    But my philosophy is, "it just takes a little arm power, I don't need the car for this."

    I also ride public transit to work, every day, and my agency gives me bus tickets to encourage ridership (which is quite nice, considering).

    When I need something quick from the market, I walk up to the grocery store. Sure, I have to cross a busy divided roadway of a major artery, but that's what traffic lights are for.

    Not all Americans are just "lazy car drivers in plush vehicles," as you seem to be indicating. I have a 14-year-old car that I keep up and drive at a minimum, and there are days I don't drive it at all.

    Unfortunately, contemporary Americans are living with the legacy their forebearers handed to them: "Space, ownership, and unlimited resources. Do whatever you want." I don't happen to believe that we have space in this nation anymore, and we certainly don't have unlimted resources. Humans, left to "do whatever they wish," will most often "crap in their own back yard," as the vernacular goes. We're the only species that fouls and pollutes our own and other species' habitat, habitually.

    The other issue is the artificially low gasoline prices in the US. If we had to pay what the Europeans pay to gas up a vehicle, there'd be lots more butts on public transits and lots of big SUV's sitting, unwanted, on car lots. Our government, I believe, hasn't really done the public any favors by artificially suppressing the real price of gasoline, and not demanding a sustained effort to research and produce fuel-efficient vehicles, as former President Carter did, and former President Reagan promptly repealed (don't get me started on why I think he did that).

    So, yes, America appears to have more obese members of society then in other areas of the world. But there are mitigating environmental factors that influence this. I just would like for you to keep this in mind, please.

    [/end rant]
  4. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    I can see what you're saying, Treecave, but I thought I'd throw a couple out there for you :)

    Ben Kingsley for "Gandhi"
    Ewan McGregor for "Trainspotting"
    Tom Hanks for "Philadelphia" and "Cast Away"

    I'd do more but I was just on my way home from work.
  5. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Yodafett, good calls. You're right about those.... good memory, too. I doubt many people remember Ghandi. :)

    Still, lest the point be lost in the shuffle, the female actresses are, frequently, dangerously underweight all the time. Every actor we've named who lost weight for a role is a normal slim or bigger in most other films (Hanks porks out a bit, and still gets roles).

    Also, they don't look horribly skinny in person. Of the five actors you and I have collectively mentioned, I've seen 2 in person, and they were neither skinny nor very buff.
  6. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    I agree with you :)

    It basically comes down to the primary demographic for studio films is still 14-28 year old males and, typically, most of them have a very stereotypical view of what their ideal female form is. It's a weird circle of idiocy in that they get their ideas on the female form from movies and television thereby keeping most women in that same mold in both fields.

    This is my attempt to deconstruct the film industry's repeated use of skinny women in most major roles:

    Movies are escapism. People don't go to big studio films, in most cases, to watch themselves or people they know onscreen. They go to see the idealized vision of what they wish they were doing the things that they wish they could. Of course, they already have the unhealthy idea of what they need to look like when they go into the theater so.........

    The other thing that works against actresses in Hollywood is the seeming inability for the most part to take chances and not take on those roles. Many actors take on roles that not only challenge the public's perception of them but also leave them looking glamorous and, in some cases, downright hideous. This is, unfortunately, an easier rode for actors to travel down but it is still open for actresses as well. However, actresses do need to put food on the table so they take whatever they can get most times.

    It's sad and I frequently hope it will change.
  7. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    It's a weird circle of idiocy in that they get their ideas on the female form from movies and television thereby keeping most women in that same mold in both fields.

    Yep, and people thought the idea of a 14 year old queen was silly. Very young people who haven't even formed their own opinions singlehandedly dictate the entertainment industry, and by extension, the news to some extent. Or is everyone here to young to remember the Age of the Miss America Newscaster? Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and other fat dumpy unattractive men have had careers for decades, but highly qualified females like Jane Pauley (who was hardly ugly, fat or guilty of disastrous hair choices) get replaced by cutesy bimbos.

    Many actors take on roles that not only challenge the public's perception of them but also leave them looking glamorous and, in some cases, downright hideous. This is, unfortunately, an easier rode for actors to travel down but it is still open for actresses as well.

    Is it really? I don't see many roles written that allow women to look like, say, Mark Hamill screaming at the end of ESB, looking like you probably really would look if you found out DV was your father. Studios don't want to see it, so they won't okay projects with it.

    I hear a lot of stories of actresses fighting for roles where they can be unglamourous - the studio, the MALE director, their own agents, and who knows who else gang up on them and rarely "let" them do it. Charlize Theron had to beg for the role of Mary Ann in Devil's Advocate -Taylor Hackford wanted her to play the sister that's supposed to be some epitome of gorgeousness (skeleton with boob job, Connie Nielsen). Theron didn't want to play the perfect woman - she wanted to play someone who slowly descends into madness and looks like hell doing it. I personally was shocked at how good her performance was, since she was only about 21 at the time. But apparently, there was a murder in her family when she was a teen, so she had the life experience to back it up, and they let her do it. If only every actress who sought gritty roles had such a life experience, it would all be fine! ;)

    The same director, Taylor Hackford, did Dolores Claiborne a few years earlier, and Jennifer Jason Leigh played someone who was under similar distress, and looked bad.

    But I can't think of many roles that allow female actresses to do this. Women are for eye candy in cinema.

    But let's face it - most male actors wouldn't have screwed up their faces as ugly as Mark Hamill did in the above mentioned scene. No matter any flaws he has as an actor, I've always appreciated his realism in that scene.
  8. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    There are fewer female roles written in films, hence the reason you don't see them in those kinds of roles in the same number as their male counterparts. If you were to take that into account then it's still lagging behind but it is much closer when adjusted percentage wise.

    Jennifer Jason Leigh is a good example though. She's one, like Johnny Depp on the male side, who isn't afraid to take on the less glamorous roles (Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle, Dolores Claiborne, and Georgia are just a few examples from her body of work). The biggest hurdle that I see is that the really challenging and unglamorous roles for women are either incredibly small or are in smaller films (i.e. they don't get paid as much). So they have to make a choice: Work on the big budget film for lots of money but starve themselves and fit into a mold.........or take a chance on taking an unflattering part in a very small production for scale.

    The males face the same choices but have a lot more latitude in the ways they can go about it and, more importantly, what the audiences will accept from them. Most guys could go back and forth on the types of films they do and not get stereotyped, hell Stallone was lauded for his stint in "Copland" and then derided again in Driven, but women seem to be labeled much earlier in their careers and they carry the stigma with them from project to project. Breaking free of it is harder for women to do than for men as well.

    Strong female roles and some more daring and alternative choices from "A-list" actresses would hopefully bring about some sort of change and it's something that we're starting to see a little more of in recent years. Is it too little too late though?
  9. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
  10. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Well, when I watch a movie, I dig to see the chicks in bikinis.

    I'll admit it.

    and I will admit I love The Man Show and the Juggies. Women on tramplolines baby!

    And how was Lucas sexist? When you right a part in a story, you have a certain image in mind. He imagined Leia looking a certain way. So he asked Carrie to drop a little more weight and strap down her breasts because he did not want Leia to look like a full bodied woman. Because if you ever saw Shampoo, Carrie has some nice boobage and rumpage there. A real hot bo, if you know what I mean.

    I'm a writer and I write all my female characters with major boobage and booty. The way I like them.

    Same way female writers, like Joan Collins, like to write up their men as Fabio like beasts.

    Booty Call!

  11. I_Hate_Sand Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    star 1
    I dig fat chicks. Seriously.
  12. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I don't dig fat chicks.

    But I dig chubby chicks. I do. I love chub on a chick.

  13. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    I think the opinions expressed in this thread are very interesting.

    Many of you see the United States as "too rich" and would like to forcibly make it poorer.



    GO POVERTY!

    Error: Only 1 message post per minute is allowed.
  14. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    There's a difference between poverty and self-control.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.