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Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rachel_In_Red, Jun 7, 2013.

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  1. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    But even if the Jedi knew that the army was meant to be used against them (as far as they know, the army was ordered under a false name (Syfo-Dias was dead by then) by someone named Tyrannus, who hired a bounty hunter.... who happens to work for Dooku as well... coincidence?), as far as they know, they are lucky that they found the army and they can use it. Whether they bothered to investigate who ordered the army or not is not important: they found it, and they can use it.

    And of course , Yoda is not happy about that, but he had no other choice. The Jedi were outnumbered and needed help. He had to make a choice... and chose poorly... right?
  2. Master Jedi Macen Arren

    Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Knight star 2

    Apr 16, 2013
    But the Jedi were unaware of who ordered the army and the circumstances behind the army and yet they still blindingly trusted them.

    To be honest I think at this point there was so much corruption and petty fighting within the senate that they didn't really care. Plus they were impressed with Palpatine's army which ultimately gained him more loyalty and trust.
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Here we go again. The films establish no such thing. All we have is an impression on the part of one character, an impression which in the EU turned out to be wrong.

    Wrong. You continue to assume ambiguity can be treated as certainty. With ambiguity there is nothing to contradict.

    It is for some people in this thread, who also happen to be using the same long-debunked arguments. But if you've chosen to adopt a pro-Jedi stance on this issue, more power to you. Of course, "its not just the Jedi" implies otherwise.

    Pointless strawman aside, so far so good.

    Because all investigations must by definition be successful? Here's where any pretense at logic goes off the rails in pursuit of the goal. Too bad.

    He doesn't have to be all that clever. He just has to not leave any documents lying around someplace which say "the Sith are involved in the clone army", or not get caught lurking around Kamino in a black robe cackling and shooting lightning. What kind of standards for cleverness are these? The Jedi can investigate all they want, but if incriminating evidence is not sloppily left for them to find it won't make much difference.
  4. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Partial quote, and so misses the irony of your position.

    Let me put it into its proper perspective.

    In response to the suggestion that Obi-Wan said that he thought Sifo-Dyas was dead when the clones were ordered you said "Or the dead Jedi may haveordered the army." and then went on to attack my argument as being in the realm of "may have"

    We hear in the movie Obi-Wan say that he was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time the Clone Army was ordered. Neither of the Jedi he is talking to contradict that. I don't know what you think the dialogue in a movie is supposed to achieve, but I generally regard it as iterating something about the story. So...why was Obi-Wan saying those words if it was not something we were supposed to understand about the mystery of the ordering of the Clone Army?

    Plot hole. I will ask you to respond to my posts with regard to what I am arguing, not what you think others are arguing.

    You must not understand the meaning if the term 'strawman' - or, if you think that I am misrepresenting your argument then please tell me in what way. Your argument, as I understand it, is that there clearly was an investigation from which the Jedi got incomplete information because they were up against superior opposition. I was pointing out that what we are actually shown in the films does not point out such. At all. In fact, this whole story that you have constructed is entirely missing from the films. There is not one mention of any of the things that you insist are there.

    No. Because there isn't a single mention, hint, pointer, word, whisper....anything at all within the movies that any such investigation took place. There are number of possibilities (of which your construct is one) and that is what makes it a plot-hole. Whatever you might 'believe' took place it does not exist within the movies.

    You are missing the point. You are inventing the cover up, no matter how clever or not it may have been, and any investigation. That's not your fault. To fill the story in you have to because it simply is not addressed within the movies. If you have to invent the basic elements of a major part of the story that is a plot-hole.
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  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Are those supposed to be mutually exclusive or something?

    Nor do they confirm it. Ambiguity is still not the same thing as certainty.

    It looks like they're trying to tell us Obi-Wan has an impression. The problem is when people start leaning on implicit false assumptions such as "any impressions are guaranteed to be correct".

    Telling me the investigation was unsuccessful serves no purpose, as I have not argued that the investigation was successful.

    Appeal to ignorance.

    Exactly - the construct which allegedly was "in contradiction of the dialogue in the movie" is one of the possibilities, showing that it didn't really contradict the movie. Which means that the "no investigation"/"clueless dimwit" scenarios, which insist that the Jedi "must have" behaved in a certain way, cannot be proven to have any legitimate basis. ( And I think a better name for it might be "the EU-Lucas construct". )

    Really? For reference, this is what I said: He just has to not leave any documents lying around someplace which say "the Sith are involved in the clone army", or not get caught lurking around Kamino in a black robe cackling and shooting lightning. I invented that those things presumably did not happen? :confused: I think if my point had been understood it would have indicated that no substantial coverup was necessary ( other than the death of Sifo-Dyas, that is, but by the time of AOTC the death of Sifo-Dyas is a done deal no matter how it happened ).
  6. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    I don't understand what you are supposed to be asking here. You do understand the concept of irony, yes?

    So, what do you propose the viewer was supposed to take from AOTC? Its not just that Obi-Wan believes that Sifo-Dyas was dead (and that neither Yoda or Windu contradict him), it is also that we have it confirmed that Jango was approached by Dooku, who we find is a Sith Lord. What do you propose the lines are there to lead the viewer to believe? That Sifo-Dyas was alive and well, was actually behind the order?

    And, if it is an impression that one is lead to by the writer, and then the writer never addresses whether that is correct...why should the viewer be expected to understand that it was not correct?

    I'm telling you there is no reason to believe any investigation took place - not from what we are shown in the movies.

    [face_laugh] Given that the argument is that it is a plot hole, it is the ignorance that is the problem.

    Partial quote (again...). Let me re-iterate. It doesn't matter what you believe may or may not be necessary, whatever you invent or uninvent is not in the movies. If you have to invent the basic elements of a major part of the story that is a plot-hole.
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  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Exactly. Simon didn't say, so the Jedi are whatever you want them to be.

    There is investigation in a story contributed to by Lucas.

    We used to call that "the truth".

    It's on you to prove that it doesn't exist ( or prove the existence of the rule that says that for some reason those alleging "no investigation" in the first place had no burden of proof ).

    "Partial quote" evasions aside, the problem here is the initial allegation of being "in contradiction of the dialogue in the movie". Later it was admitted that "my construct" - actually the scenario presented by the EU in coordination with Lucas - is one of the possibilities. So there was no contradiction in the first place. Once again, the film presents ambiguity so there is nothing to contradict.

    How are they in a position to either contradict him or not contradict him at that point? They haven't been told the exact date of the initial order. ( Also, the vague phrase used to describe the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death and the vague phrase used to describe the timing of the clone order just happen to be the exact same four words. )

    So what? How does this tell us anything about Sifo-Dyas' actions before his death? Can't Sith lords approach anyone other than Jango?

    Not one. Wan.

    Who says the viewer has to decide one way or the other?

    No one has managed to come up with a plausible reason why they would not investigate. That is only what some people would like to believe, but there is no reason to believe it. We know from AOTC that these Jedi take part in investigations. We can infer from Obi-wan's tone at the end of AOTC, or Mace and Yoda's behavior earlier in the film, that there had been some doubt about the clones. We learn in ROTS that the Jedi have spent at least part of the time between AOTC and ROTS looking for Sidious. So it only stands to reason that a Jedi order involved in investigations at the time of the PT would also investigate the army. On what basis do we act as if no one was even sent to Kamino in three years? You seem to be confused by the fact that the results of an investigation that didn't change anything will look the same as the results of non-investigation.

    Who cares? The point was another false claim: "inventing a coverup", which of course ignored what I have actually been saying on the subject. There's a distorted presentation of reality at work here, which insists that ( among other things ) investigations must always succeed, or else they didn't really happen. That has no resemblance to the way things work in any universe, fictional or otherwise. Equivalently the information "the Sith are behind the clone army" is, in essence, imagined to be just lying around somewhere where the Jedi would be sure to find it if they did any kind of investigation at all. But this, of course, reduces Palpatine to a bumbling simpleton and is only another example of throwing everything under the bus in order to make failed arguments appear to work.

    [face_laugh] Is this the part where you tell me I don't know what strawman means?
  8. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Apr 26, 2009
    @Arawn_Fenn : Enough with the baiting, the snide comments and hijacking the thread. Drop it now or you can take a vacation.
  9. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 23, 1999
    Are you familiar with the concept of the Null hypothesis?
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  10. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    The title of the thread and the framing of the discussion regarding this point ought to be enough to understand that what Simon (Lucas) didn't say is what defines it as a plot hole. The problem with that lack of information is that, within the movies, that the Jedi can indeed be whatever you want them to be. Whatever course of events you (or anyone else) might argue did or didn't occur is entirely in the realm of imagination or EU - but....

    This is about what occurs within the movies. We know there is an EU explanation but, as far as the films standing on their own (which Lucas claims they do) there is a huge gap in the storytelling.

    This also explains what I was getting at when I said that it contradicts what we see in the movies. What I mean is that, the impression that the viewer is given (by the suggestion that Sifo-Dyas was dead, by Tyrranus (Dooku) being confirmed as the one who approached Jango as the template for the Clone Army) is that...the Sith are behind the Clone Army. If one watches only the movies, the 'real' explanation requires the viewer to understand that everything they were lead to believe from AOTC was wrong. Unless you are going to suggest that the writers meant to impl;y something else by means of the dialogue? Perhaps, when they had Obi-Wan say that he thought Sifo-Dyas was dead that what they intended to show the viewer was that he was alive.

    What do you think the writers were imparting to the viewers through this particular dialogue in AOTC?

    Who used to call that the truth? When there is no evidence that something occurred is it not truthful to say that there is no evidence that it occurred? I will grant you this; its is as truthful to say it occurred as it is to say it did not occur.

    There is no evasion in the "partial quote". I was pointing out how ironic your position was. That you on the one hand are castigating others for taking a "may have" position while arguing that "the dead Jedi may have ordered the army". Do you not understand irony? The question "Are those supposed to be mutually exclusive or something?" makes no sense in terms of what I wrote, and the point I was making. You might as well be asking 'are fish made from elephant', for all the sense it makes.

    Your partial quote seemed to have missed that - that I was addressing the irony of your position - which was the response. The rest of the response here has nothing to do with it, and I have addressed it above.

    So, I'll ask again; what do you think the writers were attempting to convey by suggesting Sifo-Dyas may have been dead? What impression do you believe that writers were aiming for with that and confirming Dooku (Tyrranus) as the man who approached Jango to be the template for the Clone Army?

    How are they in a position to contradict him? We don't know. Are they? Aren't they? We don't know. Why should we believe they aren't any more than that they are?

    The last question here doesn't make any sense - but that's not what is vital here. What is important is that you insist on trying to break arguments up as if they exist in a vacuum. That we hear Obi-Wan speak about his belief that Sifo-Dyas being dead at the time and that we have it confirmed that Jango was approached to be the template for the Clone Army (specifically, rather than as if it was meant that Dooku had approached Jango in a general way....[face_shame_on_you] ) are a part of the same argument. they are a part of the impression given to the viewer that all is not right with the Clone Army. I think that it was devised that way. What do you suggest these points (together) were meant to convey to the audience?

    This boils down to the same question. What do you think the writers were conveying with these points? Do you think the impression was accidental?

    What if none of the Jedi had the time to investigate? What if Palpatine promised an investigation and constantly put it off, or used his own agents. There are as many scenarios where an investigation didn't occur as there are where one did. There is nothing in the movies regarding an investigation. Whatever one believes is what one places there.

    The partial quote matters (again) because the point is not about whether an investigation must always succeed, but is about the fact that there is not a jot of evidence within the movies that one ever took place.

    To address what you seem to consider an affront to 'reality; You are arguing from the a-priori position that there was an investigation. What I'm pointing out is that there is nothing to evidence that in the movies. That, if you take into account that by the end of AOTC we are lead (by the dialogue and plot-points) to the idea that the Sith may have played a part in the Clone Army and that, by the end of ROTS that's exactly what seems to have been the case one can certainly see that there is an argument that a) it looks like there may have been no investigation and b)if there was an investigation it wasn't particularly competent turned out the Sith were behind the Clone Army.

    You should take note of how these ideas are framed. There is an argument that.

    The investigation you insist took place is simply not evidenced within the movies.
    Samuel Vimes and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Very good post I agree fully.

    To add a few things.
    About successful investigations, as I understand it, in EU the jedi determine that it really was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the clone army, that is success, at least in part. They also conclude that it was Dooku that deleted the Kamino file, again success to a point.
    Of course the problem is that the audience are never told any of this. And IF RotS was made with the intent that we should know this then we have a plot hole.

    You make a good point about why we are told some things. What filmmaking purpose is served by having Obi-Wan cast doubt upon Sifo-Dyas involvement and having Jango be hired, not by Sifo-Dyas, but by Dooku? I would say that the point is to establish doubt in the minds of the audience, to say that this clone army is fishy and it might have been ordered under a false name. RotS more or less confirms this when the clone army turns on the jedi and kills them, so we see that it was a Sith plot.

    What reason to we, the audience, have for thinking that Obi-Wan is wrong and it really was Sifo-Dyas?
    What reasons do we have for thinking that is wasn't Sifo-Dyas?

    Is It possible that Sif.Dyas ordered the army? Yes but since we are never given any reason that it is and plenty of reasons not to, then it is not a reasonable conclusion based on the movie evidence. Instead we must ignore evidence or assume that characters are wrong for no reason.

    In closing, Sifo-Dyas is a character that we never see and know next to nothing about. The clone army is an important plot point in both AotC and RotS and to have that be ordered by someone we never see and for reasons we are never told anything about, is poor storytelling in my view.
    If you are going to have Sifo-Dyas order the army then do something with his character, show us something about him and why he might have done this. Also, in the shooting script, there was Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and the rest of the jedi knew it. So there the army WAS ordered under a false name. Then Sido-Dyas became Sifo-Dyas during the reshoots but it still seems that the army was ordered under a false name.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  12. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008

    Although I don't particularly care for the use of Sifo-Dyas in the saga, it has been established in one of the novels that he was the one who had ordered the Clone Army. And before you dismiss the novels as irrelevant, it has been established that the novel "Labyrinth of Evil" is a preclude to the events of "REVENGE OF THE SITH". Apparently, Lucas had every intention of the novels (before the post-ROTJ era) and the movies be part of canon.
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    It's still only Sidious telling Dooku that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army (and giving him orders to murder Sifo-Dyas so it remains secret). There was always the possibility that Sidious was lying to Dooku.

    Later we get a bit more corroborating evidence in Darth Plagueis- showing Sifo-Dyas being told about the Kaminoans- with hints that he's being manipulated- so soon he will order the army.

    But the first book to state outright "Sifo-Dyas ordered the army" in "omnicient third person" is The Essential Guide to Warfare.
  14. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    For me, the Sifo-Dyas plotline was never really an issue because it's basically answered in AOTC. Jango says he was recruited by a man called Tyranus and at the end of the film, Sidious welcomes home Lord Tyranus or Dooku. Thus, it seems clear to me that Dooku was directly involved with the Clone Army. And it is not too difficult to figure out who killed Sifo-Dyas from there.

    Now, an investigation was never shown onscreen, but I never had a problem with this for a simple reason: There's no leads. The Kaminoans aren't going to be of any help -- they didn't even know that Sifo-Dyas had been dead for ten years, so I doubt they ever even met the man and they seem to have no knowledge of what goes on outside of their system. Sifo-Dyas is dead and thus unreachable. Jango is dead. That leaves one lead -- this Tyranus fellow that Jango mentioned. Yet the Jedi have no idea who he is and, with Jango dead, they have nowhere to begin.

    Now, you might question why the Jedi wouldn't look into Dooku's connection with Jango and see if that's an issue with the Clone Army. The problem is, though, that there's no direct evidence linking Dooku to the army. That and, logically, it doesn't make sense for Dooku to have ordered it. Why would he order it when he's already got an army with which he could have easily overrun the Republic? It makes little sense. And the Senate is not going to accept Jango's presence at Dooku's side as an excuse. It's too tangential when the stakes are so high.

    Plus, I think people ignore that once the Clone Wars break out, the Jedi are...well...conducting a war. And not just from behind the scenes, but on the front lines. Council members like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ki-Adi-Mundi, etc. are out in the field. They're not going to have the resources to do as thorough an investigation as they would in peacetime. If anything, it's likely to fall back to the Senate. And given that the Senate has a strong incentive to save their own skins (and protect their jobs) I doubt they are going to find much wrong with the clones.

    That's just my take on it anyway. I know it's a major sticking point with some that more information wasn't included in ROTS, but by then, years had passed, and the Republic was on the cusp of victory, so I can see why the focus would have shifted.
  15. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 19, 1999
    I just figured the army was ordered by Sidious and the Kaminoan secretary did a lousy job transcribing the phone call.
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    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 17, 2003
  17. Darth_Kiryan

    Darth_Kiryan Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 13, 2009
    i am now expecting a tree or rock to come to life somewhere and use the force on you!:D
  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    If Lucas felt that the info in the novels was important then he should have put it IN the movies. I don't give credit to things NOT in the movie because of one simple reasons, it wasn't IN the movie.
    Second, the novels more or less contradict the info IN the movie. From Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas was dead before the army was ordered, to Jango not knowing that name and we later learn he was hired by Dooku, who is now a Sith. Based on this, the simplest and most logical conclusion is that Sifo-Dyas had nothing at all to do with the army. He was killed, possibly by Dooku, and Dooku hired Jango, posed as Sifo-Dyas when ordering the army and finally deleted the Kamino file. Simple and fits all the avaliable facts.
    If Sifo-Dyas DD order the army then not only is Obi-Wan wrong about the dates, it leads to all sorts of questions, why did Sifo-Dyas do this, why didn't he bring this matter to the council, which he sat on, did he know Jango, unlikely since Jango had never heard of him.
    In short, if it really was Sifo-Dyas then it is poor storytelling to just have this important plot point done by a character we see and don't know much about.
    Third, since this thread is about plot holes, IF Sifo-Dyas did order the army and RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know this then we have a plot hole, plain and simple.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  19. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Jan 30, 2013

    I view the novels as a different take on the story. Always similar, but not the same story.
  20. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Apr 26, 2009
    Yep. And both this forum and thread are about the films, not the supporting material in the EU.

    The only concrete evidence I've ever seen regarding GL's intentions for this subplot are in the shooting script of AOTC, where Sifo-Dyas was not mentioned, rather, a mystery figure sporting a screamingly obvious alias:

    So GL clearly changed his mind and created an actual dead Jedi Master by the name of Sifo-Dyas, but there's still nothing to suggest that this long-dead character was actually involved in ordering the clone army, far more likely that it was only his name being used (given Obi-Wan's reaction and stating that Sifo-Dyas had been dead for ten years).
  21. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    The Jedi have plenty of leads and things to look into. And this would not require tons of man-power, one or two people at most.
    1) Confirm the dates, was the order for the Clone Army placed AFTER Sifo-Dyas death or not? If yes then they KNOW that the Clone Army was ordered under a false name. If no, that doesn't prove that Sifo-Dyas did it, just that it is now possible that he did. Very simple.
    2) Show the Kamino people a picture of Sifo-Dyas, if they met him, and there is no indication that they didn't, they could say "Yes he placed the order for the army" or "No, I haven't seen him before." Again a very simple thing. If they didn't meet or saw "Sifo-Dyas" they could ask how they got the order. Mail, phone, or pony express. That could give some leads.
    3) Try and trace the money, since the Kamino people have worked for almost ten years then they must have gotten some money so try and trace that.
    4) Ask the Kamino people more questions, and IF order 66 was put there by them, which is likely, then the Jedi could find it.
    5) Their archives, the Kamino file was deleted and only a Jedi could have done this. So try and determine who did this. THis is something Yoda could have started early in AotC instead of meditatiing on it.
    If they are able to confirm that Sifo-Dyas was indeed dead when the army was ordered then who did this? Dooku is the prime suspect. Since Dooku could only have done this when he was still with the Jedi order then this deletion must have been some time ago. Thus Dooku have known about this clone army for several years. And yet this army turned up at the nick of time and saved the Jedi from the same Dooku's forces? You don't need to be Holmes or even Watson to smell the rat.

    The Jedi DO have a connection to Dooku and the army, Jango. Before you say, "he is a mercenary", remember we are dealing with a whole galaxy's worth or mercenaries and the like. The odds that the same guy got hired for these two jobs just by pure chance is microscopic.
    No one with any sense would dismiss this connection out of hand. Sure it MIGHT be pure chance but one should at least consider the possibility of there being a connection. Add to this, the Jedi have the tampering of their archives, which as I said above, Dooku is a prime suspect.

    Lastly, Motive. This a big one to be sure. Why would Dooku work against himself? Well consider that Dooku is now a Sith and the Jedi knows this. The Jedi also know that the Sith were involved in the TF' s invasion of Naboo ten years before. Both Naboo and the TF are a part of the republic so the invasion was essentially civil war. Which is what is now going on, only on a much larger scale. Creating distrust and sowing strife and unrest fits the Sith MO. The Jedi also suspects that the sith might have some influence in the senate and they know the seps are run by the Sith. So they at least suspect that the Sith are playing both sides here. And IF the Sith have started this war, what will be the outcome?
    War, death on large scale, many Jedi will die, which will weaken them. Overall the galaxy will be weakened by fighting itself. And a weaker enemy is an easier enemy. So the Sith can just sit back and watch their enemies fight each other.
    And if they lok at the senate and what happened after these two events, after the Naboo invasion, Palpatine got elected chancellor. After the seps threat, the same Palpatine now has almost unlimited power. So both crisis have benefitted Palpatine quite a bit. That is something that investigators often do, look for whoemever benefits from the crime.
    Sure this isn't hard evidence and nothing to go to court with as yet. But it is enough for the Jedi to be more cautious and ask more questions than what is shown. As I said before, you don't need many lines in AotC and in RotS the results of the investiagtion can be what motivates the Jedi to not trust Palpatine and ask Anakin to spy on him.
    In one of my favorite SF shows, the President is killed when his space ship explodes in what seems like an accident but it turns out the vice-President got of the ship just before it exploded, saying he had the flu. As one character on the show put it, "Very convinient illness."
    They don't have hard evidence put they consider the possibility of foul play and begin to look into it,

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    Going by the EU- (Labyrinth of Evil etc) Yoda did do the research. The money turned out to be untraceable- the trails "From Bogg Four, into a maze of deception they led" and Yoda apparently discovered that some 30-odd planets were deleted from the archives. One of which was Dagobah. Which was why he picked it for his hideout.
  23. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Apr 26, 2009
    OK, this thread is about plot-holes and inconsistencies in the films.

    Unless it's something George Lucas himself has come up with or clearly given the stamp of approval to, let's keep EU explanations, retcons and rationalisations out of it, otherwise everything will end up with some half-baked LFL-approved plot-plug that GL hasn't even heard of.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  24. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    And there's the kicker.

    See, I would agree with you more in regards to the Jedi and the Clone Army, but, again, the reason I don't is because it's not their choice. At the end of the day, it is the Senate who decides -- and the Jedi have sworn their service to the Senate. In AOTC, the Jedi do not move an inch to use the Clone Army without the approval of the Senate (via Palpatine). Thus, anything they uncover in regards to the Clone Army is going to have to persuade the Senate for there to be any action. And the Senate is going to need some very hard evidence before they reject the clones. Why? Because their lives are at stake -- the Separatists demonstrated that they were perfectly willing to kill Senators. And raising a different army without using the clones would leave them unprotected.

    Likewise, the benefits to the Sith are almost negligible because, if Dooku is the only one with an army, his capacity to spread death and destruction is increased -- not reduced. If the Republic did not have an army, Dooku would have been able to bomb Coruscant, should he have so desired, and there would have been little anyone could do about it. Same thing with the Jedi -- without the clone army, there's nothing preventing Dooku from invading the Jedi Temple and attacking with millions of battle droids. Of course, this wouldn't separate out the Jedi and many of them would probably escape, but it would greatly weaken them.

    As to your points (#1 through 5), yes, they are interesting. But they don't fundamentally alter the plot of films. That's the thing. You want it there because, without it, you're not willing to believe that the Jedi conducted any kind of investigation. And that's okay. But I am perfectly fine with not being shown it because, from what I've seen in the films, there's not enough evidence for the Jedi to conclude anything concrete, the Senate would not be persuaded, and given that the Jedi are conducting a galactic-scale war on the front lines, I don't think they would have been able to conduct as thorough of an investigation as they would likely simply due to manpower shortages. Similarly, if any investigation occurred, I imagine it would be the Senate that would be in charge of it, not the Jedi since the Jedi are currently fighting in the war.

    Essentially, I think it's unnecessary. Think of it this way:

    You remember the barge scene in ROTJ, where Luke blows it up and kills Jabba and everyone else on board? How do we know that Luke didn't murder a bunch of Jabba's innocent slaves? We know Jabba likes to have an entourage, we see slaves there like Leia and even R2 is forced on board. But we never see Luke pause to make sure there are no innocent people trapped below the deck. Now, you might say that the film never shows any of Jabba's slave on board. And that's true. But how does Luke know that? Because, as far as the film shows, Luke didn't check a darn thing before blowing it to high heaven.

    But with the way I approach films, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And thus I presume Luke somehow checked. I give the characters the benefit of the doubt. You don't have to, of course, but nothing you've said has convinced me that it is a plot hole.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    Indeed. I think people may be being overly strict with 'what has to be in the films to prevent them from being full of plot holes'.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
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