Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rachel_In_Red, Jun 7, 2013.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    First, are the jedi not allowed to think without the Senates say so? The Jedi could mention the very thing you talk about. That they are suspiscious of the Clone Army but they need hard evidence to convince the senate. Thus they start to dig into this but they also begin to reach out to certain senators that they can trust, Bail for ex. Then in RotS they have made some progress and that is why they ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine. You could also have the Mon Mothma scenes and this in turn makes Palpatine speed up his plans. Or explain why he arranged his kidnapping, to throw the Jedi off his trail.
    Second, in RotS the jedi were talking about taking power over the senate so they aren't totally subservient.
    Third, in TPM the Jedi should have gotten a wake up call when it comes to the senate. They KNEW that the TF had attacked and invade a republic world, in effect declaring war on the republic. And yet the senate refused to act, the only thing they managed to do was to sack the chancellor, making the republic leaderless.
    Fourth, the Jedi can do things even without the senates approval, like being carefull with the clone army, take precautions etc. They could have moved some of the jedi away from Coruscant, to make them less vulnerable to an attack. That could also make Anakins betrayal have a bigger impact because he knows where the Jedi have been moved and tells Palpatine.

    My problem is this; the Jedi get handed a highly suspiscious clone army and yet they take it and use it, no questions asked. Then in the next film the clone army betrays them and they never saw it coming. To me, this makes the jedi seem clueless and this in turn weakens the tragedy of their demise and it also weakens Palpatine as a villain as he didn't outthink a competent opponent, he outwitted a bunch of dimwits.

    It has nothing to do with altering the plot, it has only to do with how the characters comes across.
    Without any mention of an investigation or even asking questions like "Jango worked for Dooku and he was also the template for the clone army, do you think there might be a connection?" The Jedi comes across as dimwitted. This in turn weakens the drama and others things as well.

    Even if their options were limited they could have mentioned some of these things, they did have a scene at the end of AotC where they talked about some things, a quick mention of the Jango/Dooku connection and their voicing concern about the loyalty about the clone army might have been enough for me to show that the Jedi are at least competent.
    A pet peeve of mine is when characters have to become stupid in order for the plot to work, what is sometimes called "an idiot plot". The PT doesn't go that far but there are enough of that for it to bother me. I like it when characters, when faced with a mystery or puzzle, that they talk about it and wonder who might be behind it, why, what can they do. Small stuff but it shows that the characters are aware of what is going on and are thinking about it.

    In short, to me, a few mwntions of an investigation and follow up would have been perfectly possible and it would have destroyed the films or taken up a huge amount of time. And it could both have served the characters and the story.

    Do you think there were other prisoners on the first DS? If yes, do you call Luke a murderer for blowing it up? Where there innocent workes on the DS2, if yes are the rebels murderers for blowing it up?
    As for RotJ, Leia did run through the ship while getting up to the top and she was onboard the ship the whole time so she might know what other people were onboard and since she didn't object to Luke's orders then most likely there were no other slaves onboard. Or Luke was more concerend with getting himself and the others out alive than risk it by running through the ship, searching for possible slaves.


    [/QUOTE]

    Re: plot holes, I said before "IF Sifo-Dyas did order the army and RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know this then we have a plot hole, plain and simple."
    So my point was that IF the movie audience seeing RotS was supposed to know that the Jedi did an investigation and found out that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army and Dooku deleted the file and all that EU stuff. THEN we have a plot hole, because a piece of the narrative is missing.
    If the Jedi did no digging what so ever then it is not a plot hole, the jedi just comes across as a bit dumb. But since that would not be the first time the jedi act less than bright it fits with the rest of the films.

    Lastly, if the filmmaker decides to NOT show events happening, characters doing things or asking questions then there is a very real chance that the audience simply thinks that these things didn't happen. If that is not the filmmakers intention then they need to actually show these things or at least hint at them.

    Ex a common complaint against ST09 is that the villain is rather flat and one note and his actions makes little sense. Other have defended the movie by pointing to some comics, which gives backstory to Nero and also explains what he had been doing for much of the film. But this doesn't make those complaints irrelevent because that info wasn't IN the movie. If the filmmaker decide to cut the backstory to the villain then he or she must accept that the audience might think that the villain is one-dimensional.
    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Samuel Vimes

    Sure, the Jedi are allowed to think without the Senate's say-so. But I doubt they'd be allowed to conduct an investigation on the record without a directive. Especially as they are expected to lead the clone army into battle to protect the Republic. The Senate might prioritize the latter and want to handle the former. In regards to ROTS, the Jedi were suspicious of Palpatine, certainly, but they never intended to take power over the Senate. At most, they wanted to see its leader removed from office, but there's never any indication that the Jedi intend to force the Senate to submit to them or their demands.

    And here -- again -- there's no proof that the Jedi took the army without reservation or questions asked. But they had little choice in the matter. Because 1. It is the Senate who decides and 2. The situation means that it is either use the clone army or be overrun by the Separatists. They can ask all the questions they want, but without hard evidence, they have little recourse. Moreover, the Jedi -- as it's shown in the films -- like the clones and have fought along side them for three years. I would expect that any person would be shocked by their betrayal.

    In regards to Luke -- of course there were likely innocents aboard the Death Star II and the Death Star I. But here's the thing -- those were military actions and defensive actions to prevent the Rebellion from being wiped out. It's a sad fact when there are innocent casualties, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

    With the barge, though, it's different -- because Luke is only doing this to save Han. So dozens of slaves could have been killed to rescue one person. And Luke, as far as we see, never does anything to help the slaves in Jabba's palace.

    And look what you are doing now --> you're saying that since we see Leia run through part of the ship and not object to Luke's orders, that means there must be no slaves on board. You're giving the characters the benefit of the doubt here and presuming that the checked, that they investigated. Something you're not willing to do for the Jedi in the PT. For me, your explanation works fine, but by your own criteria, I would say it's a pretty poor explanation.

    And note that I'm not using any EU material to defend my position. My position is simply this -- looking at the films only, it's clear that the army was ordered with Sith involvement. It's also clear that the Jedi are not the arbiters on whether or not the army will be used. The crisis also means that the clone army is going to be less investigated than it would have been during peacetime because the Republic needs that army to ensure its survival. Furthermore, the Jedi's ability to conduct a thorough investigation will very likely be curtailed as they are fighting a war on the front lines -- a war that even their Council members participate in. Finally, any and all evidence the Jedi might find is going to be circumstantial at best and given the seriousness of their situation, it's not going to be enough to persuade the Senate. Thus, while there's no concrete evidence the Jedi conducted an investigation, enough is presented onscreen for the audience to make a logical conclusion, if they so choose.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Well, according to James Luceno, the Sifo-Dyas background material in the book came directly from Lucas. So, unless Luceno is lying, GL had heard of it.

    But there's a larger point to be made about EU references, including sources which did not benefit from Lucas involvement. People seem to misunderstand the relevance of EU citations in the context of "plot holes and inconsistencies" in the films. In a film forum, it would not make sense to assert that the EU position must be accurate. However, it is being asserted that there are inconsistencies in the films. The EU presents a scenario which, mistakes aside, is at least possible. If the EU's version resolves an apparent inconsistency in the films, we see that the plot point in question was not necessarily inconsistent in the first place.
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  4. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    1. When Achilles was dipped, why wasn't he dipped again, except held in a different spot?
    2. Why didn't Achilles wear shoes?
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    And those explanations don't mean a thing. A film must stand on it's own. There isn't a plot hole in existence that CAN'T be explained away if you work at it. That's not what a plot hole is. The problem is when the film's internal logic does not hold up without these outside explanations.

    That is true of every movie that has even been made in the history of movies. Star Wars isn't different just because there are a million people out there writing books
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 23, 2013
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  6. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    In AotC the jedi are able to quite a bit of investigating without any senate approval. Obi-Wan goes to Kamino and then to Geonosis. This would not be very hard or take a lot of man-power. Send one or two jedi to first double check the dates, talk a bit with the Kamino folk and also dig into the Jedi archives, why would the senate need to ok the jedi to check their own archives?

    Also, in RotS they talk about removing Palpatine from office and what that would entail.
    "MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
    office.

    MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

    YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.
    "
    Sounds to me that the Jedi are at least considering acting against the senates wishes.

    The choice to use the clones was not theirs yes, but they could have taken precautions, been more careful. Played along all the while trying to uncover the truth about this whole mess. They have many reasons to suspect the clones and their origin. They could also try to reach out to senators they feel that they can trust. In short, prepare for the worst.

    Your scenario doesn't fit the clone army situation because you imagine a problem and then ask for a solution to this invented problem. We don't know that Jabba had any slaves in the barge or at the palace. The ONLY slave we ever see is the one who is chained to Jabba, first the green girl and then Leia. And we don't know for sure that the green girl was a slave, that is never said. Leia is a prisoner/slave. So the problem you talk about might not even exist. It is possible, nothing more.

    With the clone army it is different, we KNOW that there is a problem. We KNOW that there are fishy things with the clone army and we KNOW that the Jedi know. The only way the RotJ situation would be similar is if we saw slaves in the barge and we also know that Luke knows that there are slaves in the barge. Then his actions of blowing up the barge leads to questions, did he kill innocent slaves or did he let them go even though we don't see it?

    Lastly, Luke isn't just dealing with Han, he also has to worry about Leia, Chewie, Lando and the droids. So the situation of, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few apply here as well.
    .

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok, here is me imagining the jedi doing an investigation after AotC ended.

    First order of business, double check the dates, did Sifo-Dyas really die before the army was ordered? This would not be hard or take time, Sifo-Dyas death are in the jedi's own records and getting the date of the order is not hard as Obi-Wan knows it. Result? Based on the movie, they would confirm Obi-Wans statement and thus they now KNOW for sure the clone army was ordered under a false name. To assume otherwise is to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong for no reason what so ever. So that assumption doesn't work. In addition Jango being hired by Dooku makes very little sense then.

    So once the Jedi know this, and this would be enough to be careful with the clones.
    What next?
    Their tampered files? Since only a Jedi could have done this and if Sifo-Dyas was not involved with the army then it is very unlikely that he did this. So who then? The only logical alternative is Dooku.
    Since the army and the deleting of the file are obviously connected then they have something that connects Dooku with the Clone army, in addition to Jango. So after this quick bit of digging the Jedi knows quite a bit, more than enough to worry about the clones.
    And if they had done this then in RotS they would a) not be so careless with the clones and b) they would consider the clones when talking about possibly removing Palpatine from office and even more so when they learn that Palpatine is actually a Sith. Remember the clone army obeys any order and whoever has the highest rank can give any order and that person is Palpatine.

    In closing, the problem isn't that I can't imagine that the Jedi did further digging, the problem is that this would give them even more reasons to suspect the clone army and then they should act with more care. They have leads to pursue, questions to ask and it would not require lots of man-power and some of it they could have begun before the war broke out. Once Yoda learned of the missing file, he should have put someone on it. Once Obi-Wan failed to capture Jango on Kamino, he should have reported it and then Yoda/Mace could have sent someone else to dig further into the clone army while Obi-Wan pursued Jango. Very simple things.

    So either the Jedi did nothing re: the clones, and the movie makes no mention of any digging.
    Or they did dig further but based on what is in the films they would find even more things to worry about. Either scenario doesn't do the Jedi any favors when it comes to their intelligence.
    Them not digging further is NOT a plot hole, if RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know all the EU stuff then it IS a plot hole.

    Since AotC did focus quite a bit on Obi-Wan doing investigations and many questions were raised, I don't think a follow up to those things in RotS would have been out of place or would have destroyed the movie. There are many ways it could have fitted into the narrative without taking much time and this in turn could have helped the character of the Jedi and Palpatine.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They mean claims such as "the film's internal logic does not hold up" are bogus.

    According to who? Who established these imaginary rules, and why do they get to make the rules for everyone else?

    Contradiction. If there is an explanation, the logic holds up. Also, the thread title says "plot holes and inconsistencies", so continually strawmanning the definition of a plot hole serves little purpose.
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You think I made up the definition of a plothole? Too funny.
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  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Samuel Vimes

    In regards to Obi-Wan's investigation in AOTC. Don't forget that this only results due to the Chancellor's request of Jedi oversight into Padmé's situation. Additionally, in regards to the ROTS scene, some of Ki-Adi-Mundi's lines are not included in the film and, furthermore, the Jedi never actually do take control of the Senate. At most, they suggest a transition and the Jedi only actually act when the threat of the Sith has been confirmed.

    Overall, though, you're insisting on the same point earlier that I dismissed -- that because no investigation is shown onscreen, that it's a plot hole. I disagree. I think the films give us plenty of evidence for why the Jedi would continue to use the clone army by episode III. Chief among them is the fact that they are constrained by politics and the demands of war. That, and there's very little concrete evidence to be discovered.

    Plus, you miss my point about the scene in ROTJ with the barge. In both situations -- the barge and the clone army -- there's the possibility that something bad might be true or not. The barge might have slaves on it and the clone army might have been tampered with. In the latter, it does turn out that this is the case. But here's the thing -- in both cases, we never see the characters investigate. Yet you are willing to give a pass to Luke. And I wonder why this is. Your argument seems to be saying that since the audience never saw any slaves, Luke has no reason to look for any. But remember, the characters do not have access to all the information the audience does. In essence, you are saying you are fine with Luke blowing up a barge without making sure that no innocent victims are aboard, but you aren't fine with the Jedi's investigation not being shown.

    You note that the audience knows that something is wrong. But, again, the audience has more information than the Jedi do. The audience is aware that Dooku is Tyrannus and that the Sith actively wanted the war to start. Something that the Jedi have not had confirmed for them.

    You say that the only way that the situation is similar is if Luke knew there were slaves on the barge. But I disagree -- the situation for the characters is the same. Because in AOTC, the Jedi don't know that the Sith are behind the war. They know that the situation is precarious, but they don't have the details. Luke, in ROTJ, likewise knows that Jabba brought at least one slave aboard (Leia) and likes to have an audience for his executions. Yet we never see him check or express any concerns that there might be slaves on board.

    By your criteria, this is a plot hole as well. I don't think it's a plot hole because I assume that Luke did a reasonable job of making sure no innocents were caught in the crossfire. Just as I assume the Jedi did their best to investigate while they were overwhelmed by a war.

    I disagree that the Jedi have a lot of leads to pursue. I doubt that the Kaminoans ever met Sifo-Dyas face to face (considering they didn't even know he'd been dead) for ten years. Likewise, I can imagine that the army could easily have been paid for untraceably -- through cash. All the Kaminoans care about is money and with Jango dead and Tyranus unable to be found, the only clues the Jedi really have going for them are circumstantial at best.
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  10. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    @PiettsHat

    The two situations (the barge and the clone army) are entirely different contextually. In terms of the barge there is no plot point contingent upon the question. The most one can argue is that it might affect how the character ought to be perceived, but even then the context is differentiated; in terms of the question regarding the barge, that is set up by the individual viewer - there is nothing in the dialogue of the movie to bring into question the presence of slaves or not.

    In contrast, in terms of the clone army it is a) a major plot point who ordered them (because they were a major factor in the destruction of the Jedi) and b) the question of who ordered them is raised by the dialogue within the movies.

    You say that the audience knows that something is wrong (and in this way is different from the barge situation, which is a proposition created by the viewer) but that the Jedi don't know all of that. In this you are correct, but there are two important points to make about that. Firstly, the audience, as you say knows what is wrong (and in fact points toward the clone army being the work of the Sith). By the end of ROTS the clone army have been used to destroy the Jedi - from what the audience knows of the films the one follows naturally on from the other - ie it seems clear that the Sith were behind the clone army after all. This raises a question; how were the Jedi fooled into going along with it, when it seemed clear? This is what makes it a plot hole, that a major part of the plot has passed by completely unexplained, even unaddressed.

    Now, secondly, you might say 'they don't know what the audience knows', but is what they know so much less? The only vital conclusive evidence that the audience has that the Jedi don't is that the name Tyrranus is the Sith nomen of Dooku. That's it. So what the Jedi know is...that Sifo-Dyas is alleged to have ordered the army but that...it appears he may have been dead (else why have Obi-Wan suggest so and neither Jedi Master object) and that a mysterious, otherwise unknown individual called Tyrranus was the one who approached Jango to be the template for the clone army...and where does Jango rush off to when a Jedi turns up? To Dooku... how many dots would you need to join together to suspect Dooku - now known to be a Sith - might be Tyrranus?

    Now, I've been quite understated in describing the clone army (or who ordered them) as being a major plot point. In terms of Palpatine's plan to destroy the Jedi and enslave the galaxy it is virtually the entire plot... and yet it goes entirely unexplained as to how the doubts raised in AOTC are put to one side when it turns out that... the clone army was the work of the Sith all along. How did everyone get fooled when so many questions were there to be asked. Not only is it unexplained, its never mentioned whether there even was an investigation.

    Its not as if only the Jedi would be interested in answering these questions. The whole galaxy is at war and there are major questions about where this army came from; would we not expect Senators, journalists, the average Joe/Jane on the street to be wondering how on Coruscant a rather convenient army just happened to have been ordered ten years before and who paid for it?

    I don't see how it can be argued as not being a plot hole. It is the plot, and it is left entirely unexplained....not even addressed, in the movies as to how this plot was pulled off.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Jun 24, 2013
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  11. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @only one kenobi

    I'm not arguing that the clone army is addressed onscreen. I'm simply arguing that it is not a plot hole because the films give enough evidence as to why the Jedi might not have discovered the Sith involvement in the clone army while, at the same time, nothing that is established earlier is contradicted. There's no contradictions that appear from having the Jedi continue to use the army and the action itself is not out of character for the Jedi given the circumstances.

    My point was simply that you can't expect the Jedi to make the same decision as the audience would because they are missing a ton of the information. Nothing about Sith involvement in the clone army really makes sense unless one is aware that Dooku was involved in ordering it and that Palpatine benefits from it. Without the missing key -- that Palpatine is Dooku's master -- the logic of the Sith being involved in ordering/making the army falls apart.

    Jango going to Dooku is the only possible link that he might be Tyranus. But do you really think, in the midst of a war, that the Senate are going to consider this evidence good enough? That's the problem. Because you have to look at it from what the Jedi know -- what exactly does Dooku gain from helping to create the clone army when he already has the droid army. If anything, the Jedi are more likely to conclude that Sifo Dyas did indeed order the army and then Dooku killed him, wiped Kamino from the records, and employed Jango to try to prevent the Republic or the Jedi from finding out about the army and using it to interfere in his plot.

    And, of course people would be interested in where the army came from -- but not at the cost of their lives. For a member of the public, the Clone Army is the only thing keeping the Separatists at bay. And not using the clones would mean that the public is conscripted to fight. Under those circumstances, I can see why they might support the use of the clones, even if it is under less than ideal circumstances. Same with the Senate.

    The reason I bring up Luke and the barge is because it's another example of a character not conducting an on-screen investigation when not doing so would be perceived very out-of-character. Luke sees that his sister is brought onto the barge in chains. He has some evidence, then, that Jabba is likely to bring slaves aboard the barge and yet, we never see him stop and question whether there are any before he blows the barge to high heaven.

    With the Jedi it's similar -- they have some evidence that the clone army is fishy. We never see any investigation, but, given the circumstances, we as the audience can conclude that they investigated and likely found insufficient evidence to dissuade the Senate from the clone army. It's as simple as that.

    You can say that you would like to see an investigation of course. But it's not a plot hole when circumstances dictate that the Jedi's actions are reasonable.

    With so much on the line, and with their head of government actively opposing them at every turn, I don't think it's unreasonable that the Jedi weren't able to get enough information to prevent/stop the clones from being used.

    And as I've noted, if anything, it is the Senate who would have appointed a committee to investigate the formation of the army. Why? Because the Jedi are already fighting in the war -- they couldn't possibly be expected to handle every single duty. Our government compartmentalizes tasks in much the same way -- you will rarely see those who do the front-line fighting also conducting investigations.

    Edit: Just to clarify something -- it seems as though you and Samuel Vimes (correct me if I am wrong) are saying that because the Jedi did not not establish that the Sith were involved in creating the clone army, that they didn't investigate; that no one investigated. I don't believe this to be the case. I think the film presents enough evidence in the films for the Jedi to have been suspicious but not been able to prove anything conclusively. That they failed to do so, however, is not evidence of a lack of investigation.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Jun 24, 2013
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  12. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    In what way do the films give that evidence? The films don't address the matter at all, except to a) offer great reason to doubt that Sifo-Dyas did order the clone army; further b) that the Sith are behind the ordering of the army - both strands related through AOTC - and c) conformation that the clone army was part of the Sith plot to destroy the Jedi - related by the actions in ROTS. The use of this army, their being 'got past' the radar of the Jedi and the galaxy as a whole is not a small, minor side issue - it is the plot. It is not addressed within the movies as to how this has occurred, despite that we know there are reasons to doubt that the clone army is 'kosher'.

    What you see as an appearance of no contradiction is, and must be, invented by you and stitched into the story. You, as all the viewers do, have to create your own answers to what is, essentially, the plot against the Jedi and how they - and everybody else - missed it.

    Your definition of a ton may differ from mine. The only piece of information, really, that the Jedi lack is that Tyrranus is Dooku.

    Yes I do think that, even in the midst of a war, the fact that there are so many questions regarding the ordering of the clone army would be enough to have some pretty high level investigations on-going. Let's look at what the characters do know (and perhaps more importantly what they know they don't know - to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld (but here relating to knowledge of characters as opposed to knowledge of characters vs knowledge of viewers)).

    Let us look at the possibilities. Let's say that the army was ordered by Sifo-Dyas - which is something that contradicts what the dialogue in AOTC implies to the viewer, so that the viewer has no reason to believe that it is so - the Jedi still know nothing about it, and indeed Kamino has been swiped from their databanks. So that, even if it were Sifo-Dyas he was not acting for the Jedi, and certainly not on behalf of them - as none of them know of it. And, if it was Sifo-Dyas why did he use the name Tyrranus when he approached Jango? If it was Sifo-Dyas then the Jedi are left to ponder two former Jedi leaving and/or acting without Jedi consent.... the simplest conclusion might be that they were acting together. Whether Dooku or Sifo-Dyas, the databanks were tampered with by a Jedi Master. Having Sifo-Dyas order the army answers nothing. Presumably the Kaminoans were paid by someone - the set up seems rather expensive to be the result of a promise of payment from someone you've not heard from for ten years - and that wasn't the Jedi and, presumably, not the Republic.

    And that's not even going into Order 66. Contingency orders in an army of for the Republic that either a) nobody but the Chancellor knew about (why?) or b) that nobody found a bit....odd?

    On top of all that, by the time of ROTS the Jedi are talking of the darkside "surrounding" the Chancellor - so even the link between the Sith Separatist leader Dooku (who Jango ran to and seemed to know pretty well...and (just thinking about it) was behind the assassination attempt on Padmé's life - as she was travelling to argue against the creation of an army of the Republic.....??). Unless they had forgotten everything that came before there are some pretty major clues that the war is an end to itself.

    But see above. In the midst of a war one can still question what that war is actually all about. In those three years would there not have been a movement to create their own armies. There are ways of mitigating against individual control of the army; having non-clone officers, for example and chain of command. But one's life is, surely, at risk if you allow an alien army into your society without questioning their origins. Let's say, for example, that Briatin's own armies were reduced to nearly nothing and was then attacked and some other country said "hey, we've got an army all trained up just for you"....you don't think there would be questions as to who ordered that army?

    As I said earlier, the situations are entirely different. Whatever you may think the barge question focusses on it is not a vital component of the storyline. In terms of the clone army, it is the plot to destroy the Jedi - I think it needs some explanation as to how that particular weapon was got by the Jedi and the whole galaxy when it is made clear in AOTC that their origins are very, very questionable.


    But it's not as simple as that. Given the nature of the dialogue in AOTC raising doubts as to the identity of who ordered the clone army, and the confirmation that the clone army was the work of the Sith by the end of ROTS then questions must remain over just how the Jedi/Senate/population as a whole were suckered into accepting that an army that may well have connections with the Sith/leader of the Separatists is 'safe' to use, and that nobody even bothered with any sort of contingency against sole control of the army. The more one looks the more questions appear. And the clone army is the major component of Sidious' plot to destroy the Sith and take control of the galaxy - its not some minor question surrounding the plot, it is the plot.

    But it is only 'reasonable' within a plot you invent to fill the hole. The doubts that were placed about the army in AOTC are the seeds of a plotline - and that plotline was never completed - it was simply left out.

    But, not even contingencies? (and what of Order66? - did no-one know of it?)

    Indeed; in a plot line invented by yourself this seems most likely. That is not a dig at you, btw, it is to highlight that whatever you have filled the gap with, the gap remains - there is a gap that requires some filling.
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @only one kenobi

    I don't deny that an investigation is not discussed onscreen. The thing is, I don't consider it a plot hole because the creation of the army is answered for the audience (the Sith did it -- Dooku being called Tyranus basically confirms it as such) while I think the film presents a good situation and circumstantial evidence for why the Jedi continue to use the army. That's what I mean.

    Let me give you an example of something I consider to be a plot hole:

    In Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Harry arrives back at Hogwarts after having faced the third task claiming that Voldemort has returned. Dumbledore instantly believes him. The plot hole I see, though, is why didn't Dumbledore use a time-turner to prevent Voldemort from rising and capture him? This is never even tangentially addressed in the story. And, for me, that's a big issue. Because it's not as though it is difficult to get a time turner -- Hermoine got one to take extra classes for Pete's sake. And the cost/benefit ratio is hugely skewed towards benefits. It is absurdly easy for Dumbledore of all people to get a time turner and doing so could allow him to prevent the return of the series' main antagonist. It's almost all win and no loss. To me, this is a plot hole. And the entire plot of the series hinges on this.

    In AOTC, the situation is extremely desperate. There's little choice in using the army because doing otherwise would leave the Republic completely at the mercy of the Separatists. The Jedi are also following the decrees of the Senate who have a vested interest in using the clones -- not just because the Separatists have been shown to be willing to execute Senators, but also because, with no army, it's either use the clones or conscript their own citizens to fight (which I can see being a very unpopular move when there is an alternative present).

    The Jedi have two possible pieces of evidence that link Dooku to the army:

    1. He was seen with Jango
    2. Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives

    Quite simply, I don't see this as enough evidence for them to conclude that Dooku is involved in creating the clone army. At most, they might conclude that he found out about it and tried to hide it, but it is tenuous at best and I doubt it is enough, given the circumstances, to halt the use of clones.

    What I'm saying is this: I don't find the Jedi's actions unreasonable or out of character. It seems to me that they were put under intense pressure and did the best they could under less than ideal circumstances.

    We, as the audience, know that the Sith are behind the clone army. The Jedi don't find this out, however. I say it's not a plot hole because, to me, it's a reasonable situation given the circumstances. It's not a matter of the plotline never being completed (since we know the Sith were behind the army), but of the Jedi not finding out. It is possible to conduct an investigation and not discover the truth after all -- especially when the man you are working for is actively undermining you at every turn (without your knowledge to boot).
  14. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    @PiettsHat

    I'm not a Harry Potter fan, but I will take your word for it (I think the nearest thing to that in Star Wars is the question of why Anakin decides to chop Mace's hand off rather than simply block his strike on Sidious - as he does with Dooku on Obi-Wan and Luke on Sidious)

    The reason I see this as a plot-hole is that in AOTC the plotline is built up to the point that the question of where the clones come from, who ordered them, is a major factor and will turn out to be with the destruction of the Jedi Order at their hands. After that build up the question, then, is simply not addressed. Its almost as if everyone in the galaxy has memory problems. Whatever any investigation might have uncovered it must (by the nature of the Sith actually being behind the army) have left, still, more questions than answers - and yet the original ordering of the army is not questioned at all, by anyone. The plotline is set by AOTC and then, when the next film should show how that plot was carried out, it does no such thing - it simply ignores the plot-points set in place and renders the final result. It never addresses how so many people were fooled by something that seems so obviously fishy.

    And, if we're talking about just the Jedi, given that doubts must still remain how were they caught so off-guard by the clones turning on them? What of, for example, Order 66? How did that slip by everyone? Here's an army that's come from .....who knows where...and they have a contingency order to destroy their Jedi generals? That didn't raise any questions with anyone?

    And, for the rest of the Republic; yes you can argue that at the beginning of the war the Republic are essentially without other options but....over the intervening three years nobody thought to train their own armies? They would all rather rely on an alien army for which they have no definitive origin, who nobody knows who paid for. It isn't much of an argument to say that you can't definitely say they were ordered by the Sith/have any connection with Dooku and/or the Sith and so...no problemo when the fact that what you can say is very, very limited. Whoever ordered and paid for the army it was clearly not the Jedi or the Republic - that in itself is enough to mistrust them - mistrust them at least enough to mitigate against their possible misuse. Why would you not, in three years, train your own troops? Especially if you have no real idea of where this army really comes from and who they are ultimately loyal to.

    So, scratching the surface of any explanation regarding what is 'reasonable' opens a whole can of worms. In a plot-line which relies on an individual manipulating the Republic and the Jedi into accepting the weapon of their own destruction into their midst it is not explained how he managed to do that. That is poor story-telling and most definitely a plot-hole.
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @only one kenobi

    I'm not denying that the clones and where they come from is a major part of the plot -- it definitely is. What I'm questioning, though, is your insistence that no one questioned the army. I don't think the film presents evidence of this. I always felt that the film adequately answered the question of how people were "fooled" -- it's not so much that they were fooled, but that they were railroaded into accepting the clones. And then their fear made them keep using them.

    As for Order 66 -- it seemed to me to be clear that it was a contingency order. Let's not forget that Dooku -- now the leader of the Separatist army -- was once a Jedi. Should any of the Jedi go rogue, they could cause an immense amount of damage.

    In regards to the Republic, too, you have to look at the culture of it. There hadn't been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic. A war on this scale would be outside of basically everyone's lifetime. And then, of course, there's the fact that this is a galactic scale war. Any army that the Republic tries to make up of its own citizens would doubtlessly involved thousands of different species, religions, philosophies, ways of life, etc. Trying to form an effective fighting force within 3 years would be a huge challenge were it not wartime, but it is. Furthermore, you have to consider that the war means conscription would likely be necessary. And for a populace that hasn't been at war in 1000 years, that is not going to go over well. Regardless of how suspicious the clones might be, I imagine that the populace would rather send them to die than their fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters.

    Ultimately, the Kaminoans are businessmen and if the Republic pay them, they have no reason to turn against them. I look at a plot hole as being one of the following:

    Plot holes can come in many forms:

    • Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
    • Characters acting completely Out of Character for no explicable reason.
    • An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
    • Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems.
    • An event occurring that other details provided in the work simply do not allow.
    Now,
    Did anyone suddenly have knowledge never passed to them? No
    Did characters suddenly forget things they knew? No
    Did characters act completely out of character? No
    Does the event not follow from what has been established? No
    Do characters ignore obvious solutions to their problems? No
    At least, not by my estimation.
    It's not like in Harry Potter where stopping Voldemort is as easy as Dumbledore grabbing a time turner. Here, there's really no good solution.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  16. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    After spending the last 15 minutes reading this page, I have come to the conclusion that my head hurts.

    I would also like to say that I myself don't consider this to be a plot hole just an annoyance. Why? Very simple, because this is a major piece of the story and it goes completely unquestioned in the films. But the viewer is obviously aware of the outcome because of the way the film panned out, But the films make no attempt to ask the simple questions, or give the viewer any indication of what is happening about the storyline.

    To me, I compare the Clones storyline to an episode of Columbo. Where at the end of the program he says who the murderer was, but then doesn't say why or how he did it.

    Not a plot hole, because the viewer does end up finding out about it and who was behind it. But annoying because there's no explanation of it.
    Last edited by Master Jedi Macen Arren, Jun 24, 2013
  17. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    The EU and the concomitant after-the-fact explanations thereof are not part of the film's internal logic.



    You mean the 'imaginary rule' that applies to all films released to the public*, where audiences don't in general get warned by a disclaimer at the beginning of the movie that they had better have read EU/spin-off material/creator 'canon'/X before watching the movie? o_O[face_laugh]

    *except for some reason not SW-PT films o_O

    Or, failing the above, the name of the game is:
    "I totally buy the story/plot/arc of X fiction, so EVERYONE ELSE must as well!!!!"
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 24, 2013
  18. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    @Captain Tom Coughlin, @PiettsHat, @Samuel Vines,

    I read through your posts a few weeks back about Luke's plan for rescuing Han from Jabba, and I thought of some info that may be interesting to you guys. In an earlier draft of ROTJ, there's a scene in which Luke, Lando, and Chewie are planning their strategy to save Han. Luke says very specifically that Jabba's palace is too strongly guarded and that there is no way that they can get Han out of there through force. Here are the lines:

    LANDO: What makes you think those droids will ever get in to see Jabba – let alone deliver the message.
    LUKE: Greed. It’s Jabba’s weakness. With this phony spice extractor and his greed, we’ll make contact with Han as soon as I finish. You and Chewie are going to have to make the next visit to the palace.
    LANDO: You mean just walk right in?? They’ll kill us.
    LUKE: Not when you present Jabba with this little gem, and tell him we have a hundred more just like it. You’ll be all right.
    LANDO: But we don’t have another hundred just like it. I think this plan of yours leaves a lot to be desired.
    LUKE: Listen, Lando, you know we couldn’t get Han out of that stronghold even if we had an army with us. Our only hope is to get Jabba to take him out of there, for us….
    LANDO: Then what?
    LUKE: Then you leave the rest to me.
    Lando shakes his head in disbelief.
    LANDO: I sure hope you know what you’re doing.

    I'm glad they removed the scene because it's really talky and has a lot of unnecessary exposition, but from it, you get the gist of what Luke is trying to do given what he does in the rest of this draft. Just like in the film, Luke kills the rancor, and this pisses off Jabba so much that he takes them to be fed to Sarlaac. (Presumably Luke must know that this is what Jabba does to anyone who really pisses him off.) So, Luke's plan all along was to get them out of the palace and onto the sail barge, and he must have been very confident that he could save them with his Jedi powers once they made it onto the sail barge. Artoo has his light saber stored away in him so that he could use it at just this time. To me, it's unclear why Luke would be so sure Artoo would be brought along, but maybe he foresaw that using the Force. Force-users can foretell much more complicated future scenarios than this, so Luke's forseeing this doesn't seem to be too big of a leap.
    Pensivia and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  19. EmeraldJediFire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2012
    star 4
    I have one problem with people saying, its in the novelization, because as some people have probably said, to me its just a way to explain something that wasn't seen fit to be explained in the movie...but now its considered worthy... (looks doubtful) Visual mediums shouldn't need to be explained by their book counterparts.

    There were a lot of illogical plot lines in the PT in general anyway.

    Most of which were the case of 'the plot demands it'. Everyone in this franchise must be stupid....so this and this and this can happen. Bravo. Elite filmmaking.
    Last edited by EmeraldJediFire, Jun 24, 2013
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  20. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    In regards to the Syfo-Dyas thing, I would say that it's a borderline plot hole, but I agree sort of with Piettshat's view of it: absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence. I think an omission has to be so glaring that it demands the plot to deal with it for it to be considered a hole, and in my view, this doesn't meet those requirements, and I say this purely from what is learned in the films.

    Here's the situation given in ATOC. Syfo-Dyas, a Jedi, orders a clone army and then soon afterwards is murdered or at least soon afterwards dies. Well, if I'm a Jedi, looking at the situation, and I think his death is the result of foul play, then what would I conclude would be the motivation for his murder? The most reasonable explanation for his murder would be that the Separatists didn't like the fact that Syfo-Dyas had the foresight to create the clones who would serve as an army against them if their conflict would lead to war. The Separatists would be afraid that Syfo-Dyas might take other militaristic actions, so they take him out. Then, the Separatists would want to sweep his murder under the rug b/c they wouldn't want to be blamed for the murder, so that's why things seem "murky" about his death.

    For the Jedi, this explanation makes a lot more sense than the idea that Count Dooku ordered their creation. Why would the leader of an enemy army want to create a clone army that would challenge his own forces? They had no reason to think that the leader of the Seperatists and the leader of the Republic were in league together.

    Now, should the Jedi investigate this? Yes, you should investigate any suspicious death. However, does that investigation need to be included in the film? No, because the audience would realize that the investigation didn't pan out and the Jedi were left with what seems to be the most obvious interpretation -- that a Jedi with good foresight, Syfo-Dyas, ordered the commission of a clone army to protect the Republic, and that if there's anything suspicious about his death, it's because Separatists killed him for taking a militaristic stance. Could the fact that they carried out an investigation have been mentioned? Perhaps, if there's the right place to slip the line in, but I think creating a whole scene just to address it would've distracted from the film. In fact, I think most people forgot all about the Syfo-Dyas intrigue.

    I also would also add that there's something a little weird in what's going on in ATOC. Like I said, I don't think it's a plot hole b/c it's understandable why the Jedi would assume that an ally (Syfo-Dyas) ordered the clones with the purpose of helping the Republic. At the same time, since we are in the audience, we know more than the Jedi do. By the end of ATOC, we know that Dooku and Palpatine are actually staging a sham war. (I thought this was actually a cool twist and didn't expect it coming, though now a lot of people just take it for granted.) So, as audience members, we want the Jedi to investigate the matter and uncover the truth. So, while it's not a plot hole to me, I can certainly understand why some viewers want to see the investigation to occur on film since we know what the Jedi don't and we want them to learn what we know. At the same time, I actually think it was smart that GL didn't do this because an investigation that leads to a dead end is kind of boring. Also, like I said, I think 9 out of 10 people had forgotten about the whole Syfo-Dyas thing. Perhaps GL's mistake really isn't that he didn't show the investigation on film but that he created any mystery about the creation of the clones in the first place. How the clones were created could've simply been explained in the dialogue between Dooku and Palpatine at the end of the ATOC.

    A few other points:

    --I think the use of Jango as the template for the clones is no evidence that foul play is involved. Jango is not evil. He's a bounty hunter. He works for the highest bidder. Right now, he's working for Dooku b/c Dooku's paying him to do something. If the Republic paid him more, he'd come work them (as long as he feels Dooku wouldn't assassinate him in revenge or something like that). He's clearly an exceptional physical specimen. In his suit, he's almost a match for Obi-Wan, though Obi may not have reached his full potential at that time. So, Jango makes for a good template for the clones. That's what's most important.

    --Also, that the clones carried out Order 66 is no evidence that they were created by the "bad guys." The command structure is pretty unclear, but it seems reasonable that the clones ultimately answered to the senate, and so, like in most democracies, the Prime Minister or Chancellor in this case would be the guy who most directly supervises the clones. Consequently, Palpatine could've given the clones the Order 66 command at any time during the 3-year duration of the Clone Wars. In fact, just like the US President, Palpatine would be aware of things going on behind the scenes that perhaps the Galactic Senate is not even aware of. Consequently, it is not at all unreasonable to think that Palpatine was aware of the creation of the clone army or learned of it at some time before the war, and he just kept this info classified, and so, Palpatine could've given them the Order 66 command during the pre-war period. And again, there's nothing more "nefarious" about Palpatine keeping the clones a secret than Obama keeping secret the PRISM phone call tracking program or Tony Blair keeping info about Iraq classified. Do all of us like that our gov'ts do this sort of stuff? No, but this is how it works in real democracies and the Jedi aren't ignorant about how real democracies work, so even if they learned that Palaptine was aware or even behind the creation of the clone army, this wouldn't mean that Palpatine is corrupt, evil, or a Sith lord. It would simply mean that Palpatine acts in the same way as almost any leader in a democracy acts.
    Pensivia and Valairy Scot like this.
  21. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    That isn't, though, the situation as of AOTC. What Obi-Wan says is that he believes that Sifo-Dyas was dead before the clone army was ordered. The suggestion is not that Sifo-Dyas was mysteriously killed after the event, but rather that he had nothing to do with it. That Jango seems to know of no Sifo-Dyas, but instead a mysterious 'Tyrranus' and that Jango, upon being discovered by Obi-Wan runs to Dooku.

    As above, the idea created by AOTC is that Sifo-Dyas was not behind the ordering of the army but that somebody else was, and that somebody is known by Jango. You might well ask why the Jedi would think Dooku would want their creation but then, equally, he is confirmed as having been behind the assassination attempt on Padmé - as she was on her way to speak against the Republic creating an army.... In fact the two questions become entangled. This is further magnified in ROTS where the Jedi talk of the darkside surrounding the Chancellor.

    As I pointed out earlier, Sifo-Dyas having ordered the army answers nothing. If it was, then why did he pose as 'Tyrranus' and/or why didn't Jango know who Sifo-Dyas was? Who paid for the army, an army that no-one in the Jedi or the Republic is aware of? If Sifo-Dyas really was found to have ordered the army and killed because of it, why didn't the killers then cancel the order or disrupt the facility in any way? Why was Jango - the template of the clone army - sent by Dooku to assassinate Padmé as she was due to argue against the formation of an army of the Republic? How did Jango come to be in the employ of Dooku?



    I don't know many real life democracies where a president/chancellor/prime minister has any direct command of troops. Chain of command.


    Hmmmm...I think there are a number of issues here but...I will stick to those in movie if that is ok with you. I don't see how you can argue that Palpatine keeping secret his knowledge of the clone army would not be seen as nefarious even if discovered. He gained emergency powers through them - and bypassed the democratic process (the debate on-going). Once discovered I think it would definately be seen as nefarious. (These things don't happen in real democracies; that they are occurring is a sign that we don't have real democracies - sorry, couldn't not comment, and..isn't that the sort of thing that Lucas was getting at with the whole corruption of democracy storyline?).
  22. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    I like some of your points, and I know ATOC least well of all the films b/c it is my least favorite, so please correct if I'm wrong about the facts.

    Well, again, maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that Obi-Wan said something like: "I was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas died before that date." And then there's no comfirmation given whether he's right or wrong. Also, I don't see what the big deal is that Jango doesn't know who Sifo-Dyas is. 1st, Sifo-Dyas may have hired a guy named Tyranus to find the best specimen who turned out to be Jango. People use middle men all the time. 2nd, Jango doesn't particularly want to be helpful anyway. Obi-Wan's being snoopy about the Coruscant stuff.

    Obi-Wan hears Nute Gunray say that he's not going to join the Separatists until Padme's dead. So, there's no reason to think Dooku's tring to kill her because of her her position on military creation act. Or that rationale would be conjecture since we hear a real reason given and there is no reason to think Gunray is lying since it's something that Obi-Wan secretly overheard.

    --Again, Tyrranus could simply be a middleman. That's why Jango didn't know him. Middle men aren't that unusual at all.
    --All the Jedi knows is that the Council didn't approve it. Any government that I know of have special departments that keep classified info about defense matters. The Prez and some in the defense department and the defense sub-committee in Congress are the only ones who have access to the top classified material. Presumably, the Galactic Senate has the same things, so the Jedi are simply out of the loop. The funding could simply come from a classified source. The budgets for the NSA and skunk works defense programs have been off the books for decades.
    --Jango was hired to provide his DNA for the clones because he's a bounty hunter with great physical abilities. He was hired to kill Padme because he's a great bounty hunter, partly b/c of thsoe abilities. Presumably those abilities makes him a very good person to hire to kill Padme too. (Of course, ignoring the fact that he does a really lame job at it!)

    BTW I actually think GL was trying to suggest the interpretation you have -- that these associations and the question of who was behind the making of the clones should make us distrustful of the clones and who created them. I'm just saying that when I break each one of these things down and try to explain each thing with real world explanations, then it doesn't really seem too conspiratorial b/c every thing seems to have a common sense explanation too, like the idea that Tyrranus could just be a middle man.

    You're right. Direct was not the best word. The Prez doesnt usually give direct orders, though if he did, any peronnel would have to follow it. My point is that there's a chain of command beneath Palpatine that's loyal to him and protects classified info. That's how it is in almost every government. Order 66 was simply a classified order given down this chain of command.


    I sort of agree with you. Some pretty bad stuff goes on, but this isn't new. Eisenhower acted without the consent of Congress when he helped back a coup against the elected government of Iran and it's been going on ever since. My point is that from what I'm describing Palpatine seems only as nefarious as almost all our leaders are. From this evidence he only seems like a normal politician, and not Hitler-bad, and there's a big difference.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Jun 24, 2013
  23. The Hellhammer Grand Judicator of the New Film Territories

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Not strictly a plot hole, but the stupidest thing in the Saga (in my view) is Padme "losing the will to live."
    That's a) stupid b) makes no sense c) selfish d) totally out of character e) ****ing stupid
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  24. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    But where the plot has been set up (as it was in AOTC), then absence of evidence is evidence of absence when the questions that were raised there are never addressed. It is the manner of the destruction of both the Jedi and the Republic; it is set up as such within AOTC and then never addressed in ROTS. It was set up deliberately as a mystery that requires answers - to the point that Lucas assured fans that who Sifo-Dyas was would be cleared up in ROTS. It wasn't cleared up, nor even mentioned.

    What reason do the films give us for thinking Sifo-Dyas died after ordering the Clone Army? Why would anyone, watching the films, come away thinking 'Obi-Wan said he thought Sifo-Dyas was dead before ordering the clone army and it wasn't him that ordered it but Dooku (Tyrranus) so...clearly Sifo-Dyas ordered the army and then Dooku had him killed'. The information the viewer is gven indicates that Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the army and that Dooku (Tyrranus) did. This isn't important in terms of what the Jedi know, but it is important in how one reaches the conclusion that all is well with the storyline. There is nothing in the movies to indicate that what Obi-Wan said is not true; there is nothing in the movies to indicate that Sifo-Dyas really was behind the ordering of the Clone Army. So "the most reasonable explanation for his murder" requires that the viewer ignore the evidence given in the movies and invent an entirely different scenario from that set up in AOTC. How is expecting the viewer to contradict the information they are given reasonable?


    On its own this is true, one could say....maybe he was alive. But then we (the viewers) and Obi-Wan are told that Sifo-Dyas wasn't the one who approached Jango but that some man named Tyrranus was. At the end of the film we (the viewers) are told who Tyrranus was - Dooku. So, the movie leads to the viewer understanding that it was not Sifo-Dyas but Dooku who ordered the Clone Army...

    But here you make a circular, false proposition (based upon the idea of what we are told of Sifo-Dyas alone). In order that Tyrranus not be a problem one must first presume that Sifo-Dyas is found to be behind the ordering of the Clone Army which is not what the information from the movie has told us. The viewer has to imagine a scenario - unrelated to all the information from the movies - that Sifo-Dyas is found to be behind the ordering of the Clone Army, and then the name Tyrrannus is not a problem (well, it still is...but more on that later).

    See above.

    Then, why not kill her after she has spoken in the debate? If he is determined not to have the Republic have an army then taking the most vehement opponent of the army out of the equation prior to the debate is ...well, stupid. He can have her killed afterwards, surely?

    Why do you think most people forgot about the Sifo-Dyas intrigue? Because Lucas clearly did? Some mention of the investigation is required because, as I said above, the Jedi and Republic going along with the whole thing requires an outcome to that investigation that contradicts the information given in AOTC. We have to believe (invent?) that somehow Sifo-Dyas was found to be behind the ordering of the army (though this just leaves just as manty questions unanswered, and in fact raises new ones) - despite that all the evidence from AOTC points toward him not having been. All that we know for certain is that the Republic has an army which..nobody really knows who ordered it, nobody knows who paid for it and...nobody says a dickie bird about that?


    On the presumption, against all in-movie evidence, that somehow an investigation finds Sifo-Dyas to be involved.

    ...which is exactly the sort of thing we should keep an eye on. I'm amazed that people so readily accept this (the purloining of your money (through taxes) into the hands of secretive groups/organisations doing who-knows what as...a natural aspect of democracy. It's not democracy and alarm bells should be ringing where such is discovered. Demos, of the people. Democracy means rule by the people, not rule of the people by cabals and oligarchies)

    But...we (the viewers) know that Dooku hired him both as assassin and as template for the clones - we have toinvent a scenario where this becomes obscured to the Jedi and Republic at large.

    But...that's the point isn't it? Rather than just accepting secrecy and unconstitutional practices as par for the course those things should be seen for what they are - attacks on democracy.

    I was questioning how that particular order went under the radar. Surely, given the questionable origins of the Clone Army the appearance of a contingency order specifically to kill the Jedi would alert someone that they appear even more fishy than before. presumably an army for the Republic would have come under the scrutiny of due dilligence of some sort (especially given their questionable origins). More questions, because the whole 'we sneaked an army of your destruction into your midst' plot-line is not addressed in terms of 'how did you manage that'.




    I'm not sure one should automatically assume that there is such a big difference (you might want to have a quick look at the role certain American corporations had in the arming of Germany prior to WW2 - a war that corporate America did rather well out of...), and I think that is the political point that Lucas was trying to make - that we shouldn't accept these things as being somehow ok because, well..like...it's not like they're Hitler or something is it?
    darth ladnar and Samuel Vimes like this.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Nope. I said "strawmanning the definition of a plot hole serves little purpose".

    Wrong. That is never true in any universe. SW is not granted a special exception to logic in order to make revisionist positions appear to be legitimate.

    Yet it's constantly treated as a foregone conclusion by those who seem to accept only one answer. Curious.

    False.

    This assumption of a "contingency order" whose existence would be known to the Jedi? Not in the films.

    So it seems that you're open to using the EU as an argument, but only when you think it helps your case.

    Unfortunately, the very same EU contradicts "the Jedi didn't investigate" and "Sifo-Dyas wasn't involved".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jun 25, 2013
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