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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rachel_In_Red, Jun 7, 2013.

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  1. Asajj_Kenobi

    Asajj_Kenobi Jedi Master star 1

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    Oct 4, 2004
    Ah...okay. I never read the junior books. It's too bad they felt a need to explain that especially when it doesn't make much sense even with the Force. Even with his eyes closed why can't Luke remember Obi-Wan talking?
     
  2. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I'll just leave that for you to ponder. When you figure out the answer, you'll figure out why we don't agree on this subject.
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I only read it once- but Wookieepedia mentions it as well.

    I think Leland Chee might have stated in a Q&A session in Star Wars Insider that it is indeed Padme whom Leia is referring to, but I'm not sure where I read that.
     
  4. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    We discussed enough in RLM thread, Owen's statement has zero problem.
     
  5. Asajj_Kenobi

    Asajj_Kenobi Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Oh I am not questioning your memory on this. :p You're right, babies can't really see well when born. Also the part of their brain involved in memories doesn't develop until months later. But I am sure the writers would come up with another explanation for the memories...such a post-cognition memory where a Force user is actually picking up memories from the Force...which is different from Force-Enhanced memory.
     
  6. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    They should not have to "explain it", that's what makes it a plot hole
     
  7. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    Blame that on editing. The focus seemed to be the Yoda vs. Dooku fight, so it seemed like they tried to get Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the way as fast as possible.
     
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  8. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Relocating this to Saga.
     
  9. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    I just looked over the script of ANH, and Owen himself has almost nothing to say about Anakin. All he says is that Anakin and Obi-Wan died at about the same time, and we come to know that that's a lie, because Uncle Owen presumably knows that Obi-Wan is still alive and that Ben and Obi-Wan are the same person, and he's trying to conceal that fact.

    The rest we hear about Owen and Anakin is from Obi, and in that conversation, Obi isn't being honest with Luke either because he's concealing that Vader is his father. When they do bring up Anakin, it's in regards to Anakin's fighting in the Clone Wars and Obi tells him that Owen thought Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved. He also reveals that Owen has lied about Anakin's past (Owen says he was a navigator on a freighter). So, that gives us a greater reason to doubt everything Owen has said about his relationship with Anakin.

    Then since Ben can't reveal that Luke's father is evil (that certainly wouldn't convince Luke that he has come with Ben) and since Ben has discredited the Anakin as navigator theory, then Ben has to just come up with a new past for Anakin that would convince Luke to go with him. For this reason, there is no reason to believe that Ben is being completely honest with Luke either. Ben is more making up a story as Anakin as a hero, and since clearly Luke knows about the Clone Wars and thinks they were cool, Ben is talking about Anakin's heroic times in the Clone Wars. He's not giving Luke a true life story of Anakin. He's giving Luke a positive impression of his father as a hero so that it stands in contrast with boring life that Uncle Owen wants Luke to keep living.

    So, looking it over, it doesn't seem like a plot hole at all to me.
     
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  10. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013

    That just sounds like you are working hard to explain it away. Fans do that a lot. It doesn't mean it's not a plot hole. It just means you are trying to fill that hole

    There is no reason for Kenobi to lie about Owen disapproving of Anakin leaving the planet, if anything that part of the story works against Kenobi's goal of convincing Luke to leave with him. There is no reason to believe that he isn't telling us the the truth about Owen's opinion.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That reminds me- did Luke say "navigator on a space freighter" or "navigator on a spice freighter"? The second adds a certain level of disreputability to the portrayal of Anakin that Luke got from Owen.
     
  12. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I think it's spice, but don't quote me on that
     
  13. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    One way to know, put on subtitles
     
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  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Not always reliable- I've seen "He's the brains, sweetheart" come up as "It's easy to complain, sweetheart" on TV before. DVD subtitles are more reliable but even they occasionally miss a word or two. What does the script say?
     
  15. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

    Edit: I just checked the novel and it says "space freighter" there. [face_thinking]
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe it was one of the changes between drafts?
     
  17. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    Well, I have to "retcon" the meaning of the scene somewhat since Obi-Wan was being truthful about Anakin being killed by Vader when ANH was made. It was only later that GL decided to make Anakin and Vader the same person in TESB.

    In this case, I do read the scene as Ben pitting Owen's future for Luke vs. the heroic life of Luke's father that Ben wants Luke to take, and I think Ben's saying "Owen is holding you back just like he would have wanted to hold your father back from living his heroic life" works in Ben's favor to convince Luke to go with him.

    However, for me, I don't consider something a plot hole unless it can't be explained at all. Leia remembering her mother doesn't seem explainable to me unless she's created a false memory. In this situation, all you have to do is accept that Ben might be being a little dishonest, and since he's already been dishonest about Anakin not being Vader, I don't think that's too much of a stretch. So, it works for me.
     
  18. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Maybe we are all deaf and think it's spice
     
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  19. Sock and Awe

    Sock and Awe Jedi Master star 1

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    Jun 8, 2013
    I've never read any books about "the making of" the prequels/ROTS, so I'm just speculating here, but my guess is that in addition to serving the other elements of the plot that GL was working with, he might have liked the idea of Padme "dying of a broken heart" as that is something that regularly happens in mythic/legendary/archetypal stories. For example, see the medieval legend of Tristan and Iseult (Isolde). Here are some relevant points from the Wikipedia summary of this legend:

    "Tristan and Iseult is a legend made popular during the 12th century through French medieval poetry, and inspired from archetypal Celtic legends. It has become an influential romance and tragedy, retold in numerous sources with as many variations. The tragic story is of the adulterous love between the Cornish knight Tristan (Tristram) and the Irish princess Iseult I(Isolde, Yseult, etc.). The narrative predates and most likely influenced the Arthurian romance of Lancelot and Guinevere , and has had a substantial impact on Western art the idea of romantic love and literature since it first appeared in the 12th century. While the details of the story differ from one author to another, the overall plot structure remains much the same....

    There are two main traditions of the Tristan legend. The early tradition comprised the French romances of two poets from the second half of the twelfth century . . .Their sources could be traced back to the original, archetypal Celtic romance. ... Tristan dies of grief, thinking that Iseult has betrayed him, and Iseult dies swooning over his corpse."

    There are numerous variations of this type of death in other literary traditions. For example, in 18thc English and American fiction it is common for female characters who have been seduced, impregnated, and then abandoned by male "rakes" to die from "despair" either during or shortly after they give birth.

    So, while Padme's death may just seem silly or unbelievable to some viewers, there is certainly clear precedent for this within various mythic/literary traditions. And we know that GL sees the saga as type of "modern day fairy tale." Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone has to like it personally, but I just wanted to point out that it does fit in with GL's overall mythic "vision" for SW.
     
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  20. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013

    I like this response because you are admitting that you are retconning it. A lot of people here don't. This is a very reasonable answer. I like the cut of your jib :)
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And for a modern example, Voldemort's mother in Harry Potter- is implied to have "refused to stay alive for her son" after she gave birth.
     
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  22. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    How is that modern?
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    LOL wut? The first book was just published 16 years ago and is supposed to take place at that time. How is that NOT modern?
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Well, Harry Potter is not 18th century fiction.
     
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  25. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Oops my bad it is modern, derp on me
     
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