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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rachel_In_Red, Jun 7, 2013.

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  1. ACrusaderA

    ACrusaderA Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2013

    No, you can most certainly lose the will to live and die, especially in a traumatic experience like, I don't know, you're husband beating you, throwing you to the brink of death and then having to fight to give birth.

    The reason you don't see goths dropping like flies is because they do have some secret will to live.
     
  2. gambit420

    gambit420 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Wouldn't her newborn kids be enough?
     
  3. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    A boy who pretty much SAVED HER ENTIRE PLANET.
     
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  4. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 17, 2011
    :oops: Padme didn't die because of physical injuries caused by Anakin. Sure he chocked her but that wasn't nearly enough to kill her.

    She was injured emotionally and mentally you shouldn't die in a few hours from that. Then every seriously depressed person would be dying.
     
  5. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Luke's plan to rescue Han is just one big plot hole in ROTJ. I've never been able to make heads or tails of it:

    Why doesn't he simply have Lando free Han?

    What did he send Leia in to do? Was she supposed to get Han and then get out (after rescuing the newly-imprisoned Chewbacca with Lando's help)?

    But then why did Luke send in R2 and C3PO with his lightsaber? Was it just a back-up plan?

    How did he know that R2 would be taken aboard the skiff?

    How did Luke know that Leia wouldn't be killed on sight or fed to the Rancor for Jabba's amusement (like that poor slave dancer)?

    Why is C3PO even there?

    So many questions.

    The worse part is, it's so convoluted that every time I find an explanation for one part, it's contradicted by another of Luke's actions. it's just a weird sequence.
     
  6. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013

    I agree, you start pulling strings on that plan it falls apart pretty quickly. It does not seem to be the most coherent plan.
     
  7. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Truthfully, the best explanation I've found is that Luke is trying to put in a bunch of back-up plans into motion at once and then trusting in the Force à la Qui-Gon Jinn. I think it would have been easier to accept, though, if Lando hadn't already been there -- I think that's really my sticking point. But, maybe Lando already tried to get Han out and couldn't before blowing his cover? That's my best guess.
     
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  8. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Lando is their inside guy, he is the guy that's been feeding them intelligence on Jabba's operation. That's just how I always saw it.
     
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  9. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Makes sense. I do have to wonder about C3PO being there, though. Did they presume that Jabba wouldn't have a translator?

    Although I love that they don't tell him about the plan, trusting that he wouldn't be able to keep it to himself. [face_laugh]
     
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  10. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    And if Leia had managed to sneak Solo out of there, how do they go about getting Chewie and the Droids back out?

    Luke cares for the droids, they might be disposable to some in the universe of Star Wars, but not Luke. That's in fact one of the things that is supposed to signal to us that he's the good guy.
     
  11. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Maybe they were all going to try to get out at the same time? The droids might not have been under as tight of guard and they likely knew Han would be the weakest and most difficult to help escape (maybe even needing Chewie to carry him?), but it does seem as though they're adding layers of difficulty needlessly sometimes.
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Several problems with your scenario.
    1) Why would Wattto see their ship, they don't land in front of his shop.
    2) Watto had nothing to conect Padme or Qui-Gon with Naboo, he knew the kind of ship but that doesn't mean that those kinds of ship ONLY exist on Naboo. Watto even says that he has lots of that, refering to the ship, so it doesn't seem uncommon.
    3) Why would Watto even connect the people with Naboo? Unless they told him, and why would they, they would just be off-worlders to him. At best he might figure they are from the republic.
    4) If Watto needs money then if rich off-worlders show up then he would do anything to profit by it. So he would glady sell Shmi and if he no longer owned Shmi, he could try and sell the information for a prize.

    So IF Padme had sent some people she would know that Shmi had been freed and she would have told Anakin this in AotC.
    Since she didn't, the implication is that she never bothered.

    If Luke's plan in RotJ is a plot hole then Palptines plan in RotS is even more of a plot hole.
    It is very risky, relies on lots of things Palpatine can't controll and has a very small chance of actually working.
    1) Palptine sits on a ship, in the middle of a huge battle, for who knows how long. The ship could have gotten damaged or blown up at anytime, if fact it did get shot up rather badly. If it got blown to bits then he, Dooku and Griev would all die, which would balance the Force and probably end the war right there.
    2) The plan relies on Anakin and only Anakin coming to rescue him. How did he know that none of the Jedi on Coruscant wouldn't try?
    3) So Anakin has to get recalled, get back and be able to reach the ship without dying.
    4) Assuming Anakin gets this far, what happens if he looses? How would Dooku/Palpatine be able to explain how Palpatine managed to escape? And if he was to remain a prisoner, what would happen to the war?
    5) Asssuming Anakin wins, did Palpatine actually have a plan to get off the ship? They almost got killed several times after Dooku's death.

    In closing, this plan is very risky for Palpatine and has little chance to actually work and it is totally unneccesary. He had control of Dooku and Anakin so if all he wanted was for them to fight, that could have been arranged in lots of other ways that was far less risky and had less variables.

    Luke's plan in RotJ is not very well thought out and could go wrong very easily.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The last time I saw this topic brought up, this was the best answer I saw:
     
  14. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    As for how Watto would know who the people of Naboo are -- I think it's largely due to how unique and distinct they are on Tatooine. Anakin, for example, thought Padmé was angel and from another planet just by looking at her. And then, of course, even if he doesn't originally recognize them as being from Naboo, what's he going to think once rich off-worlders start asking about Shmi Skywalker? Watto stares at Anakin suspiciously for quite a while after he asks after Shmi -- he doesn't immediately start pitching and making sales.

    Plus, I can also imagine that Watto might be less willing to help them so soon after he lost Shmi. He would have had the money from her sale still and probably would be less likely to help them out of pure spite. In the coming years, I think he would have mellowed out, especially after falling into poverty. Don't forget that he still refused to sell Shmi to Qui-Gon in TPM. Qui-Gon could have easily traded the pod for Shmi, but Watto wouldn't have it, so he's forced to sell it discreetly and then give whatever money he could get for it to Shmi so that she could make her life better.

    I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, in those circumstances, Watto wouldn't feel like being all that helpful to off-worlders. I'm not saying that's how it had to happen. But I think it's a possibility.

    That's why I think Padmé thought Shmi was still with Watto and didn't say anything to Anakin (or she didn't tell him anything new basically).

    Plus, I think it's likely that Padmé wouldn't have been able to send the most clever or competent people to Tatooine. They would have still been dealing with the aftereffects of the invasion on Naboo and I don't know that the people of Naboo would have been discrete enough not to mention their connections to Anakin, Qui-Gon, and the bet.

    I always thought that Palpatine's plan didn't go exactly as he wanted it. The reason I think this is a pretty minor point --> he basically makes several uneasy faces during the rescue which I always thought indicated that something that he didn't anticipate happening was occurring. I think Palpatine had likely given order through the Separtists that the Chancellor was not to be harmed or put at risk and then he presumed that the Republic ships wouldn't shoot at the Invisible Hand (or at least not with the intensity they did...) because he was aboard. In all likelihood, I think he didn't account for the chaos of the battle and whether everyone would be on the same page as neatly as he perhaps should have.

    In terms of Anakin, I think Palpatine knew that since he was Anakin's good friend, that regardless of who was actually ordered to save him, Anakin would come for him. Plus, Obi-Wan and Anakin were some of the Order's best Jedi and I think he knew that they were already highly likely to be called. And if Anakin dies, well, he clearly wasn't worthy. And if no one successfully rescues Palpatine, well, he's still in charge of the Separtists -- he can still lead them as Darth Sidious while Palpatine is their "prisoner" -- he can just have Dooku take him to an escape pod and they'll get out of there. If he wants to go back as Chancellor, well then, it's a matter of dropping the right hints so that he is rescued.

    I actually think the ship blowing apart was not exactly part of Palpatine's plans. Because of his Dark Side powers, he may have been able to take care of himself, but he still looks rather nervous in several scenes.

    The point, I think, is that Palpatine makes rather risky decisions when he gets greedy. In this case, the prospect of seeing Anakin in action, getting rid of Dooku, and further solidifying his power made him more likely to take risks than usual. I always think it's a bit similar to what happens in ROTJ, when, hoping to destroy the Rebellion and turn Luke, he actually tells them the location of the shield generator. Or how, when Luke moves to strike him down, Palpatine is sure that Vader will block the strike and save him. He also didn't have to actually stay on the Death Star II --> he could have discreetly left and then, when Vader went to collect Luke, have gone to a different location (perhaps a ship with a cloaking device?) to watch it unfold, if he insisted in giving the location of the real shield generator.

    In both cases, though, the plan didn't go exactly as foreseen. Fortunately for Palpatine in ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to pull through. But I think the prospect of getting something he really wants is what makes Palpatine make these more risky maneuvers.

    Iron_lord

    That's actually a pretty good explanation, but it still leaves me a bit puzzled.

    For example, how did Luke know that Jabba wouldn't just kill them all in the throne room after Luke killed the rancor? How did he know Leia wouldn't be shot/killed instead of put in the slave bikini? And how did Luke know that Jabba would bring R2 to the sarlaac?

    I think, personally, that the simplest answer is that Luke did make these plans the best he could, but then he just trusted in the Force to see them through.
     
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  15. Sock and Awe

    Sock and Awe Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2013
    See post #69 of this thread :)
     
  16. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    How do you know which post is #69? I don't see post numbers anywhere
     
  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    1) About Watto looking suspicious. He knew Anakin as a boy and it seemed like he somehow recognized him. He even says "Annie? Little Annie?" So I think his look had more to do with that.

    2) Anakin thought Padme was an angel, in other words he thought she was pretty and he had heard stories about angels. And Qui-Gon and Padme didn't stand out very much on Tatooine, Jar-Jar did but why would Padme send him? There are a LOT of planets in the SW galaxy so, at best, Watto might figure these people are off-worlders. Remember, Tatooine did have quite a number of people from the outer rim territories passing by, the race drew quite big crowds. So it is not like off-worlders are a total rarity on Tatooine. So Watto wouldn't know they are from Naboo and even if he knew, so what? He didn't know Padme was from Naboo, he knew her ship type but that wasn't unique to Naboo. Qui-Gon? He isn't from Naboo so again Watto can't connect him with these people.

    3) Qui-Gon tried to bet Anakin and Shmi for his pod but Watto wouldn't have it. There is no indication that he sold the pod and tried to buy Shmi with that money. All he said was that they money wasn't enough. And at that point, Watto was very pissed at him so for him to try and buy Shmi would probably not work. But as we know, Watto did later sell Shmi and Cliegg didn't look very rich so it is unlikely that he got lots of money for her. So if Watto still owned Shmi and was offered a very good price, there is no reason why he would refuse. And if he didn't own her, he has no reason not to say that or at the very least he could try and sell the info. Afterall, with Anakin he quickly tried to make use of him to get some money that was owed to him. So Watto isn't one to pass up making a profit.

    4) About Padme and sending people. First, we saw very little damage to Naboo so the rebuild would not take long. Second, since travel time is hours at most, this errand would take a day or two at most. Third, she has a whole planet to command. Fourth, how hard do you think this is? Go to Tatooine, sell water or shut-down battle droids and you got Tatooine currency. Then go to Watto and ask about Shmi Skywalker and offer to buy her for a good price. Or even simpler, go to Watto and sell, buy, barter stuff and while you are doing that, make small talk and inquire about if he has people working for him. If he still owns Shmi, he would say so, if not he would also say so. This isn't Dragon magic.


    But my point is that the plan was very risky and needlessly so. Sitting on a ship in the middle of a huge battle is not a safe place to be. If Palpatine doesn't understand that then he is a moron.
    Even if he thought republic ships would not fire on his ship, what about stray fire? What about other ships crashing into it? And if Anakin got to him and killed Dooku, how would they get off the ship and survive the huge battle outside? For that matter, where did Anakin and Obi-Wan plan to put Palpatine once they got him? Their ships were one man fighters, no passenger seat.

    And it relies on far too many unknown factors, like Anakin getting back and getting to his ship alive, that no other Jedi would try a rescue, which they should since Anakin wasn't there when Palpatine was taken but other Jedi were.
    Lastly, the whole thing is totally unnecessary, he could make Anakin fight Dooku in many other ways that didn't have as much risk to him and would not rely that much on blind luck.


    The RotJ situation isn't really comparable with RotS. Palpatine had a far better plan there. He let the rebels know of the shield generator but he also put a legion of his best troops there. If the rebels showed, they would get captured. Second, the fleet was at the DS and not spread out in the galaxy as the rebels thought. Third, the DS was actually operational, again something the rebels did not know.
    His plan was to lure the rebels to the DS so he could destroy them in one quick move instead of having to chase them around the galaxy. If they didn't show, then the DS 2 would be completed and he would win anyway, it would just take longer. Win-win for him. In short, in RotJ he had stacked the field to his favor, he did not do so in RotS and it make less sense there as he controlled both sides.

    He did not plan on Luke being there so there he improvised. He figured that he could use the sight of the rebels getting decimated to get Luke really angry, angry enough to attack and it worked.
    Palpatine was overconfident yes but at least this plan make sense, the RotS plan make no sense. Unless he had read the script or he has God like foresight and could foresee absolutely everything.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well one thing that Luke might have been using is goading Jabba. He offered him money for Han but also said that if Jabba didn't play ball, he would destroy him. So I think he was counting on this making Jabba angry, and angry enough that he wouldn't just kill Luke quickly but devise a slow death for him instead. Quite cocky yes and it almost cost him with the Rancor.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  18. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Bottom Right next to like and Reply.
     
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  19. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Thanks!
     
  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    You're welcome!
     
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  21. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    My God, that was exhausting. That was your idea of a well made plan?:confused:
     
  22. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    With what? They had to use Anakin's victory in the podrace to get parts for Padme's ship.

    Why do people behave as if every problem can be easily solved?
     
  23. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    They had to do that when they were on their own and stranded. I can buy the idea that there wasn't much Jinn could do at the time when his priority was getting Padme back to Coruscant safely. Once they get there, they could have done something. They have resources at their disposal They chose not to. Plot hole.

    You guys work really hard to try and come up with ways to excuse this stuff.
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Or rather: They have resources; We don't see them using those resources. Perceived plot hole.
     
  25. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    You have to see it, that is the nature of story telling. A story is what it is. Anakin went to Watto thinking his mother would be there, they had no idea of the status of his mother at all. That's what we see.

    What we don't see is one shred of evidence that anyone so much as gave her a second thought
     
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