Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Your scenario still doesn't work for me.
First, as I said, Watto has not got anything that ties Qui-Gon or Padme to Naboo. All he knew was the ship type and that was a Nubian not Naboo. He even said that he had lots of that. So the ship type can't be unique to Naboo. Would he even know Padmes name or who she was? He saw her but did he talk to her? All he saw was a young woman in plain clothes. The one he dealt with was Qui-Gon and he wasn't from Naboo. Watto probably knew he was from the republic but the republic is rather a lot of planets.
Second, unless they tell him, Watto has nothing to connect the people Padme sends with Naboo either. And if Watto is going to be hostile to any and all off-worlders then he would destroy his own business very quickly.
Third, you are still making this into something very complicated, it isn't. In fact the simplest approach is to go to Shmi's house and Padme knows where that is and talk to Shmi directly. If Watto still owns Shmi she would be there, if he has sold her, the place is empty or someone else lives there so ask around. Anakin and Shmi seemed to be known so it would not be hard to figure that out. Or go to Watto and barter, sell and buy stuff and casually ask him. Again this isn't Dragon Magic.
Fourth, your scenario doesn't fit either Wattos or Padmes character. Watto was greedy and, as he said, only money worked on him. So if he had the chance to make some serious money he wouldn't turn it down just to spite some people he has never met. Also Padme, she is shown as someone that doesn't give up quickly and if her people came back with failure then she would try again.

You assume that Qui-Gons lines refers to him trying to buy Shmi, that does not have to be the case. Instead it can refer to his bet with Watto where Watto refused to wager both Anakin and Shmi.
In fact Qui-Gon says that the money from the pod sell wasn't nearly enough.

Also, Watto WAS angry with Qui-Gon and there I can buy he would refuse to sell out of spite.
But as AotC shows, Watto had no problem with selling Shmi to people other than Qui-Gon. So you have no basis for assuming that he would refuse two strangers that offered a good prize.
When Watto tried to go back on the bet and Qui-Gon threatened him with the huts, Qui-Gon only talked about the parts and him dropping by later to pick up Anakin, not a mention of an offer for Shmi.

Naboo did not seem to be too damaged to throw together a parade and that would have taken longer than this. Again, this would take 1-2 days at most and less than an hour for Padme.
And IF Shmi had been sold and Padme sent some people, as I said if they had gone to her home she would not have been there so ask around. This is not hard.

And AotC would not have been affected much. Simply have a line or two where Padme says he freed Shmi but Shmi wanted to stay on Tatooine. This would make Anakin even closer to her. You could also get in some resentment against the Jedi. Say that Padme told Mace Windu but he never informed Anakin because he wanted Anakin to get over his mother. That would build Anakin's anger against the Jedi and could come into play later. On Tatooine you could still have the Watto scene but Anakin simply asks where Shmi is, since she isn't in her house and we go from there. It achieves all the films does plus it doesn't paint Padme as an ungrateful or uncaring person.

Jump into an escape pod and fly out in that big battle with explosions and shots fired all over the place? That isn't very smart.
And again if Palptine never considered that his ship would get fired upon then he is an idiot. This is a BATTLE, ships are shooting at each other all over the place. Since he knew that the rep forces knew where he was then they would try to prevent the ship from leaving and maybe fire at the engines or something.
Bottom line, you said that Luke's plan in RotJ is a plot hole then so is Palpatines' plan in RotS.
It is filled with unknowns and uncertainties, it carried a considerable risk for him and it was totally unnecessary.

It would have been nice if any that had been explored by the film but it wasn't. Like for example show battle damage to Coruscant, burning buildings and what not. Also, after the rescue, the battle isn't talked about much if at all. It still seemed that if Griev was caught or killed then boom the war would be over and Palpatine was supposed to step down. And why scare people? In AotC he got almost unlimited power with just the threat of an attack, he hardly needs more.
Also, if the war was shown as too costly then the number of people that want peace would grow.
If the republic is too scared then they might decide that it is better to make peace rather than continue with the war.

Also, a far less risky version of that plan would be to have Anakin on Coruscant when the seps attack. Anakin is with Palpatine and Dooku runs in, they fight. If Anakin wins, the seps forces are driven back and you have all what you mentioned above. Fear in the population, a test for Anakin and Palpatine seems very brave, standing against the Sith Lord Dooku. And it would have been far less risky and involved far fewer variables. In short a far better plan.

That says more about the appalling standards in the imperial forces. Or that Palpatine trusted his generals too much when he asked for their best troops. And the idiots inside the bunker should never have opened the door.
Also, the fleet was no more at risk with the shield up or down since they weren't protected by said shield. Also, he let the rebels know about the DS2, but we don't know that they would have been unable to find out even if he hadn't. The rebels did have spies and a build of this magnitude is not easy to hide.

A legion is a very large number of troops and the rebels had what, 20-30? Why would he need more? Either he didn't know that Ewoks existed, probable if the imperials had not seen any of them. Or he discounted them as primitives, which they were. Overconfident yes, but not reckless.

If he had given a false location then the rebel team would have noticed this and could have sent a warning signal, spoiling the trap. Being outside the shield would also be risky, there would be a lot of fighting going on there and his ship could get damaged. And if the rebels noticed a cloaked ship then they could figure he was there and shoot at that. As long as the shield was up, he was safe.
The RotJ plan was not risk free but Palpatine to care to tilt the filed to his favor. His plan in RotS was far more risky and uncertain.

Yes he had foreseen that Luke would come to Vader and then he told Vader to bring him when that happened. He did not foresee that Luke would turn up at the DS2 and he was rather surprised that he did not sense him. But the initial plan wasn't made with Luke in mind.

The RotS plan could have done with a few very simple revisions and it would have made it much less risky and have far less random variables. But to me, the RotS plan is far more risky and uncertain that the RotJ one and why one works and the other not is simple, plot demands. He was to win in RotS so he does even if his plan makes no sense and has many foolish risks.

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But again if you view Luke's plan as a Plot Hole how can you not view Palpatine plan as one as well?
He could not be sure that Anakin would come, or survive the outside battle, or that other Jedi would not be with him, or that other jedi from Coruscant would not try to rescue him before that, or that his ship could get fired upon, or how they were supposed to get of the ship alive or what he would do if Anakin lost. Etc etc etc.
In short it has as many if not more unknowns than Luke's plan. And Luke did also take some steps to tilt the field in his favor, a hidden ally, Lando, and a hidden weapon.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I've always wondered why people didn't burn or dehydrate to death with having twins suns shining down on a planet,

imagine in the height of summer,

Also no one seemed to sweat either.

 

Maybe they're at the bottom end of the G-type star range- as weak as those stars get?

 

Now here I can agree with you. The lack of any acknowledgement of the slave army is a plot hole. In fact a great deal about the clone army is left unaddressed. The clone army is one big black hole of plots - no mention of their being slaves and the ethical questions involved; seemingly no questioning of the template of the clones being allied with a Sith Lord; seemingly no inquiry into who actually ordered the clones and what part Sifo-Dyas played (and the EU 'explanation' is contradicted by what we hear in the movies)....

It's like a really interesting idea that....wasn't really thought through and so doesn't play out in any convincing way.

 

No, it isn't. Impressions do not connote certainty, and thus "under the impression" contradicts nothing.

If you have a film series with a multi-year in-universe gap between installments, part of the unspoken pact with the audience is that it is assumed there were things going on during that time period that nobody, unfortunately, got to see. Embracing a fallacious "didn't see it, didn't happen" mentality, the one which by extension tells us that Jedi never go to the bathroom, is not the way to build a legitimate case against the Jedi. Besides which, there is simply no evidence lying around for them to find which shows that someone other than Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones, while there is evidence ( persuasive or not ) on Kamino which points to his involvement. So there is nothing at all to suggest a lack of rigor on their part, because the outcome would assuredly have been the same for them no matter how much effort they had put into it. Their opponent is presumably not so careless as to have left a trail for them leading inexorably to himself; especially given the fact that their powers of precognition are limited due to the shroud of the dark side, they have no means of transcending the dead end that waits for them at the end of this particular investigation.

 

Actually I was mistaken. It is the novel of the film which contradicts the 'explanatory' EU. In the novel it is claimed, by the Kaminoans, that Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango as the template whereas Jango tells Obi-Wan that he was approached by a certain 'Tyrranus'. That rather suggests that Dooku was acting as if he were Sifo-Dyas.

Firstly, I am not building a case against the Jedi. I have suggested a plot-hols which is a case against the story-telling. There is neber any mention in the movies of any sort of investigation. The 'explanation' can only be found by reading EU. Where the clones have come from is a major aspect of the plot so it seems amiss to liken it to "I wonder if the Jedi toilet". In fact who is behind the clones is vital in the destruction of the Jedi, so to not have any reference to how the Jedi have come to (seemingly) blindly go along with the plot is pretty impressive plot-holing.

If I have to fill in a major part of the story by imagining that this or that must have happened, or if I need to read sources outside of the story-telling medium then...that looks like a plot-hole to me.

 

This is something I agree with

 

Being only an alleged "suggestion", that's still not necessarily a contradiction with the EU. The Kaminoans believe that Sifo-Dyas handpicked the template. There are ways in which they could have obtained this belief which do not require Sifo-Dyas to have actually handpicked Jango. By the time Jango shows up on Kamino, Sifo-Dyas is dead. We might speculate as to whether the Kaminoans received a communication from "Sifo-Dyas" after his death, but even if they did, it doesn't preclude the real Sifo-Dyas from having made the initial order, and it doesn't specifically indicate Dooku as the one responsible ( any Palpatine ally could have done it ). In fact, given that Dooku is supposed to be the public face of the Confederacy, it's highly unlikely he passed his own likeness off as Sifo-Dyas.

It's not called "Star Investigations". This is something that happens between the movies. We know that the Jedi spend part of this time trying to find Sidious, for example. It seems sufficiently clear from AOTC that when Yoda first goes to Kamino he does not have time to do a thorough investigation, as he needs to get the clone army in action ASAP. But it only stands to reason that after the battle was over someone went back to Kamino and investigated the situation further. That showing this would have disrupted the narrative flow of the end of the film should be taken into account.

 

Not "necessarily" a contradiction. "There are ways in which they could have obtained this belief". "Wemight speculate as to whether"."it doesn't preclude". "doesn't specifically indicate".

In other words, if I bend it this way, twist it that, put a kink in it here I can see it as not really contradictory. If an 'explanation' leaves more questions than answers its not much of one, I think. It comes across as having once been one story and then....later being altered.

Not even a mention though? Not even a hint of a mention? Who is behind the clones is hardly a minor issue given their part in the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic. The argument that showing it would have disrupted the narrative flow seems to be an argument that too much has been squeezed in to too little time.

 

Exactly. You can't just take a bunch of "could have"s and "suggestions" and make a contradiction out of them. Once again uncertainty is somehow being cast as certainty. The movies may not prove that the EU scenario happened but they do not disprove it either; the same holds true for the AOTC novel as it relates to the wider EU. Nothing that we find in any of these sources prevents Sifo-Dyas from having made the initial order, as he clearly intended to do given some of his dialogue.

If the investigation didn't turn up anything new or substantial, what is there to mention? The Jedi may simply know no more than they did at the outset, and are still not able to refuse the army in practical terms due to their pledge to defend the Republic.

 

But, as far as I know, the EU the investigations DID turn up something new, the fact that Sifo-Dyas DID order the Clone Army.
At the end of AotC the Jedi are still unsure who excatly ordered the clone army, was it Sifo-Dyas or was it ordered under a false name?
If the investigation did find solid evidence that it really was Sifo-Dyas then that is something new and should therefore be mentioned.
If the inverstiagtion did NOT find out anything then the Jedi are still unsure who ordered the clone army which means they are still using an army that was ordered by persons unknown. And that can be used to question their intelligence.

Since the general audience would at the very least suspect that the army was ordered under a false name given what the movie shows. If RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know that the Jedi now are sure that it really was Sifo-Dyas and noone else, then that should have been mentioned.
Inroducing and developing a mystery only then to ignore it and not resolve it is sloppy writing.

And as have been suggested, this would only require a line or two. In AotC have Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda talk about Jango and his working with Dooku and what that means for the clone army and then say that they will look into the Clone Army matter to make sure everything is on the up and up. Then in RotS, in order to justify the Jedi's suspicious attitude towards Palpatine, they can mention that they have confirmed that Sifo-Dyas did order the army but didn't pay for it and they have traced the money to someone high up in the senate. So they think that someone in Palpatines office might be involved. Then that is what they tell Anakin to be on the lookout for. Anakin wants to tell Palpatine about it and ask for his help but the Jedi say no, they don't fully trust Palpatine anymore.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Just like Vader finding out about Luke. How did he found out about him, why is he so obsessed with finding him, does he know that Luke is his son from the beginning of the movie or when Palpy tells him...
The whole TESB is build on a basis we know nothing about, ergo plot hole. A giant one.

 

Is it really essential to know exactly how Vader finds stuff out? It's a futuristic Empire- bound to have a spy network.

 

That isn't a plot hole. Vader knows that a young man strong with the force destroyed the Death Star, his actions in Empire are a logical continuation of that plot.

Trying to use that as an example of why we should forgive the illogical actions of the Jedi with that clone army won't fly.

 

There was nothing illogical about the Jedi using the Clone army. They had no choice. Instead of having the good sense to stay out of politics, they allowed themselves to be the minions of the Galactic Senate . . . who wanted them to use the Clone army against the Separatists.

 

That's a strange way to make the case that they don't act illogically, when a spit second later you mention their lack of good sense.

 

Why doesn't Grievous just have the hundreds of droids around him shoot Obi-Wan? This guys the supposedly brilliant Commander of a Galactic Army. Are we supposed to believe he's that idiotic? And why does Obi-Wan just jump down into the middle of the hanger full of droids in the first place? Very odd scene.

 

Grievous was too arrogant. He himself told the droids to back off of Obi-Wan because he wanted the kill.

Though Obi-Wan took a gamble jumping into middle of the droids. Still, even if Grievous ordered the droids to open fire, Obi-Wan wasn't without his wits. He was one of few Jedi who survived Geonosis (which were much similar circumstances). Either way, Obi-Wan's only goal was to create a distraction for Grievous, which he succeeded in. Due to his nature, I'd like to imagine that Obi-Wan knew what he was doing.

 

Well, like SlashMan said, Obi-Wan did that to create a distraction so the droids would be unaware of the Clones entering the fray.

 

So he's willing to use all the empire's resources just to find that one man? Which happens to be a Skywalker?
It's a plot hole.
And I'm using the same criteria you use.
Just on different trilogy.

I have no problem with the Jedi and army of clones. As far as they know, they were ordered by Dyas and confirmed by the senate as an army of the Republic to fight the separatists.
But when you see the opening crawl of TESB in which Vader searches for Luke specifically, that does stick out and, as I quoted, if I had to fill a major point of the story by imagining that this or that must have happened, that's not great storytelling.

 

Not when finding this one man happens to coincide with the mission he's been assigned with, not to mention being given free rein of the Imperial Fleet and a hefty promotion in order to carry out this mission - tracking down and destroying the Rebel Alliance.

I think there's a lot of confusion in this thread about just what comprises a 'plot hole' or inconsistency, as opposed to just 'stuff I didn't like', 'what I would have liked' or 'what I think should have been included'.

 

You're not using the same criteria I use. You might think you are.

 

If Grievous ordered the droids to fire Obi-Wan would have been decimated. There's no way he could block or dodge 100 droids firing at solely him. It was a massive gamble by Obi-Wan to hope Grievous would channel his inner Bond villain and not just immediately kill him.

 

Out of interest, but do plot holes actually curtail people's enjoyment of films/books/television?

Because, from what I've observed, fans of a work generally don't mind them. Like and dislike is rarely present based on plot holes, I've found.

Anyway, in regards to Obi-Wan -- maybe it was just Jedi honor? The Jedi don't seem to do sneak attacks and approach their opponents directly, perhaps to give them a chance to surrender or out of fairness? Honor before reason?

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean here, but the clone army was not endorsed by the Senate until AOTC, and the Jedi know this.

So if that's the case, why would the origin of the clone army still be a hot-button topic in Jedi dialogue by the time of ROTS? "Hey, remember when we found out Sifo-Dyas really did order the clones? Those were good times."

I wasn't aware that letting the Republic be split in two was considered a sign of intelligence.

The reference to a lack of "good sense" referred to the Jedi role in being joined at the hip to the Republic and acting at the behest of the Senate. But by the time of the PT that situation is a done deal. If it's a failure of "good sense", it's policy that was established long before TPM. Given their relation to the Republic they act completely logically. You seem to act as if they should have suddenly cut all ties with this traditional role in response to the Republic being threatened. But that's totally unreasonable... some would say illogical.