Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

It is NEW information to the audience. Obi-Wan and Yoda have known for a long time that Vader really is Lukes' father but we, the audience, aren't told until much later. The Jedi have known that the Sith supposedly died out a thousand years ago for about that long but we don't learn that until half-way through TPM. We don't learn Mace Windus name until AotC.

Also, as I said, you can have the Jedi just recently been able to trace the money to Palpatines office and they are talking to Anakin about it. In that conversation they can talk about Sifo-Dyas really ordering the clone army, something Anakin might not have been fully in the know about since he wasn't on the council in AotC, and what they want him to do. In short it would not have been difficult to get that info across and it wouldn't have destroyed the movie.

Bottom line, was the audience supposed to know that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army or not?
If yes then that information should be IN the movie, not in some book. If not then we have an unresolved plot point and that is sloppy writing.
Or even simpler don't make it an issue in the first place. Simply have Sifo-Dyas dying some years AFTER the clone army was ordered and at the end of AotC have Yoda say that he is sure that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army.

The Jedi aren't the republic and the republic can still make use of the clone army without the jedis help. Also there are not just two options here, use and not use, the Jedi can treat the clone army with care, keep them at arms reach and take precautions.

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Since the Jedi aren't soldiers, they even admit this, why are they made into generals? That doesn't sound very logical to me. Are there NO ONE in the republic with military experience that are better suited to lead armies? Typically a general aren't in the middle of the battle, they are responsible for troop movements, deployment, long and short term strategy and tactics.

The Jedi have more options than just using the army, no questions asked and simply refusing.
They can, as I said, take precautions, limit the number of jedi exposed to the clone army, move some jedi away from Coruscant, uncover as much as they can about the clone army and it's origin and make preparations for eventual possibilities. IF say the clone army was ordered by someone in the senate and that someone is eventually planning to use this totally obedient army to seize power then the jedi need be prepared for this possibility.

As it is in the film, the jedi are taken totally by surprise by the betrayal of the Clone army. Given all the warning signs they had, their deaths aren't really tragic, instead the jedi comes across as clueless dimwits.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yet there's no reason for the characters to say it to one another during ROTS, and having it jammed in there artificially just to inform the audience wouldn't have served the plot of ROTS.

How do you know they didn't?

Like the clones saving their butts on Geonosis and then going on to serve faithfully for three years?

 

The ROTS novel fills this plot hole by having Grievous have the droids shoot. The battle droids wind up even shooting themselves. And finally once Obi-wan is close enough to Grievous, Grievous has no choice but to get the droids to stop.

As for Obi-wan, he's there to specifically to kill Grievous and knew there would be droids there, Jedi in the Clone Wars are familiar with rooms full of droids.

 

I have just given you reasons, like Anakin not knowing about all the details of the clone army because he wasn't on the council before. Or that new info has just emerged and they bring up what they already know. Or more specific reasons why the Jedi want Anakin to spy on Palpatine.

Also, if you introduce a mystery and then don't resolve it and are unable to resolve it in the next film then that is sloppy writing.

That argument cuts both ways, we have no idea what the Jedi did or didn't do because the films makes no mention of any of it. At the end of AotC the Jedi don't know who ordered the clone army. If that situation had changed then it should have been mentioned IN the film. Since it wasn't, the simplest conclusion is that they still don't know. If the filmmaker wants the audience to know a specific information then put it IN the movie. If you don't then you can't complain that the audience doesn't know that specific information.

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Have you ever heard of double agents, moles? These are people that seemingly work for you and may even help you but are really your enemy. Nazi Germany and Russia made a pact in the early stages of WW2 but that pact didn't prevent Nazi Germany from attacking Russia later on.


In closing, the whole Sifo-Dyas, Clone army thing was not handled well in the films. A mystery was set up but then not resolved and it made the Jedi look incompetent. Either don't bother with the mystery or resolve it properly.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

They had a person who was claimed to have ordered the army- Sifo-Dyas. Then Yoda goes to Kamino. Shortly afterwards, we see Yoda leading the army. The simplest conclusion is that any suspicions he might have had that it wasn't Sifo-Dyas, have been lulled.

 

How? Yoda did not have a lot of time to ask questions since he arrived on Geonosis less than an hour after Mace and co.
And what could the Kamino have told him that they didn't tell Obi-Wan? Obi-Wan had far more time there and could have asked many more questions.
The simplest conclusion is that Yoda didn't have time to ask lots of questions because he had to gather up troops and go to Geonosis as that was most urgent at the time.

We have the Kamino people claim that Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone army but Obi-Wan says that, as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was already dead at the time. Then we have Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas and he works for Dooku, who we later learn is the one who hired him to be the clone army template. The available evidence in the film speak against Sifo-Dyas ordering the army and nothing directly confirms his involvement.

Lastly, if Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army then that should have been mentioned, like at the end when they talk about the clone army.
As I said, it is sloppy writing to set up a mystery and then not resolve it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

So if you imply they did not "uncover as much as they could", you have no way of knowing that.

 

You have no way of knowing they bothered to look into it at all. This idea isn't found in the films at all. The films show us Jedi rushing headlong into war

 

Regarding Sifo-Dyas - GL (and Rick McCallum, apparently) promised the mystery would be explained in ROTS in the AOTC DVD commentary, however, this didn't happen, it was only ever elaborated upon in the novel Labyrinth of Evil.

I don't know if it's a 'plot hole' (which I would define as being or involving obvious contradictions), but it's a glaring omission.

 

I don't mind the Sifo-Dyas thing in and of itself. In fact, I sort of like the shadowy nature of it. It lends credence to the idea that the Sith operate in the shadows, and that they mix lie and truth. It doesn't bother me that an answer is never found as to the nature of the creation of that army. It does bother me that the Jedi don't bother to look for one I think the plot holes come in the strange decisions made by the Jedi.

 

Same here, but I think it does stand out a bit because it was once intended that the mystery would be resolved - instead it was just tossed aside in the hope that it would be forgotten. All it would have taken was a line from Palps to Anakin as part of his seduction, perhaps to show the foolishness of the Jedi and the potential for the Sith to save the galaxy from the war.

 

Wouldn't viewers be highly skeptical of anything said by Palpatine?

 

That doesn't really matter, though - it's much the same with the Legend of Darth Plagueis, as well as Dooku's story to Obi-Wan in AOTC about Sidious controlling the Senate - but it would have been some sort of explanation, rather than a loose end.

 

But the explanation ended up being totally different: the original intention (based on the shooting script) was that Sidious ordered the clone army using the name of an existing Jedi (in the shooting script the name is just an alias), and Dooku erased the memory archives. The explanation was very simple... and I'd say that episode III indirectly addresses the issue: the revelation is that the clones were meant to be used as a weapon against the Jedi by Sidious... therefore Sidious must have ordered the clones.

The explanatio from the novel, from what I understand, is that an actual Jedi ordered the clones... which isn't what Lucas had in mind when he did episode II.

 

The original intention was that a Jedi by the name of 'Sido-Dyas' (durrrrr) ordered the clone army, and Obi-Wan didn't know who this was, although he covered up his confusion to the Kaminoans. Obvious Sith deception, but perhaps not one that could credibly avoid the keen observation of the dulled minds that occupied the Jedi Council.
This was later changed to the clone army having been ordered by a Jedi ten years before by the name of Sifo-Dyas, an actual Jedi Master who had died roughly around the same time.

So once again, GL created a complicated plot hook out of a simpler one, as he did in ESB when he changed Yoda's line from "Now we must find another" to "No, there is another". This time around, however, he never bothered to resolve it, not even in the clumsy fashion he did with Luke & Leia.
Did Dooku pose as Sifo-Dyas? Did Darth Sidious pose as Sifo-Dyas? Did Sifo-Dyas order the army while being deceived by the Sith? Were Dooku & Sifo-Dyas involved in a legitimate attempt to defend the Republic and then Sidious corrupted their plans?

As for what GL's actual intentions were around this plot are concerned - I don't think this has been resolved at all, despite the EU explanation.

 

Appeal to ignorance. I'm not the one trying to make a case for Jedi inaction by going "didn't see it, didn't happen". You have no way of knowing that the version of events which you insist on has any validity. Your case against the Jedi is founded on "maybe" ( and provides no compelling rationale for why the Jedi would not investigate ). That's not good enough.

 

If we were meant to know of an investigation in the films, then it would have been mentioned in the films. That is how films are made, that is how they are judged. It is that simple.

 

Still not hearing a reason they wouldn't, other than "because I said so".

 

Because Lucas wrote illogical characters.

 

Its not a case against the Jedi, it is a case against the story-telling, that's why it is being discussed as a plot hole. The problem with the plot hole is that it can be used to argue that the Jedi must have acted foolishly, without good sense.

Here's why. The origins of the Clone Army is a mystery left hanging at the end of AOTC. Worse than that, the mystery implies that whoever ordered the army may have used a dead Jedi's identity. The template of the Clone Army is a bounty hunter working for Count Dooku, who we learn is a Sith Lord. This same Sith Lord, under his Sith nomen Tyrranus, is confirmed by said bounty hunter to be the individual who approached him for the job as template for the Clone Army. It looks like the Clone Army might be the work of the Sith.....

Moving on ten years or so; the Jedi are purged in Order 66. Seems that the Sith were behind the Clone Army after all. So, someone can raise the question;
Didn't anybody check out who ordered the army?
You could respond;
Yes, they did and they clearly found that it was all above board.
To which;
Well...it can't have been a very good investigation because...well, it wasn't above board. It looks like the Sith were behind the Clone Army.

And there really isn't much of an argument against that. You could drop a stone down this particular plot-hole and never hear it land. The Clone Army is a major part of Sidious' plan to destroy the Jedi and take over the Republic - that it is left as an unknown whether the Sith are behind the army at the end of AOTC, and shown to be the case at the end of ROTS does not lead to the impression that any competent investigation was carried out.

 

In other words, "because I say so".

Must have? Why? How does the nature of a "plot hole" mean anything must be true?

How does ambiguity somehow become certainty? Because you insist that it must?

Or the dead Jedi may have ordered the army. As usual we're still in the realm of "may have", "could be", "I wish", and "it all comes true if you just believe hard enough".

The Jedi don't know Tyranus is Dooku. That's information you've been spoon-fed by getting to see a private conversation between Palpatine and Dooku. Next.

It looks like nothing of the sort. It looks like the clone army routed an army of droids commanded by a darksider and rescued the bulk of the Jedi Council in the process. Not exactly the most Sithy track record.

In other words, if an investigation doesn't succeed, we can assume that in fact the investigation never took place at all. If a team loses a game, they didn't even try. No room here for realities such as the possibility of a superior opponent. Nope, if you lose out in a contest or endeavor of any kind, it really means that you never even showed up in the first place. This is absurdity at is finest, just another example of the ridiculous lengths some will stoop to in order to condemn the Jedi. Once again, if your case rests on "the Jedi didn't investigate", it rests on nothing at all, since you simply made that up. And it's obvious nonsense on its face, given that it tacitly assumes there is evidence lying around to be found on Kamino or other places which proves Sith involvement. There wouldn't be. The most you could hope for would be a Dooku confession.

 

It's not because I say so. It has nothing to do with me or you. It's because Lucas didn't say so. This whole argument is about whether the imaginary plot points that you came up with are valid, they aren't. They aren't part of the story. No amount of dancing around changes that.

This story exists nowhere but in your imagination. There is no investigation in Lucas's story. There might be in Star Wars according to Arawn Fenn, but we aren't really discussing that version of the movie. We're discussing Lucas's. It's that simple. Because you can invent a solution doesn't make the solution a part of the story

You telling me that I'm making up the fact that the investigation didn't happen is insanity. It's not a plot point in the film. It does not exist in the story. Not anywhere. Not one shred of evidence, not even hinted at. It does not exist. You want to say that it does, prove it. Go ahead. Show us the investigation, show us the lines that speak to it. It's on you to prove that it exists.

 

The sentence is in perfectly good English. Can be argued that ... In what way am I insisting upon anything?

?? So, we're told through the dialogue in the movie that the investigating Jedi believes that Sifo-Dyas died before the time when the army was ordered. Your response to that is that "the dead Jedi may have ordered the army"...in contradiction of the dialogue in the movie, and then you move on to explain how my position is in the realm of "may have"...??

Your propensity for editing seems to be confusing you as to the argument made - for you appear to be responding to some different argument (or pretending many seperate little ones, when they are all part of the same)

To the viewer it seems to point toward a possibility that the Sith are involved in the ordering of the Clone Army, for all the reasons I pointed out - including that we (the viewers) hear that Tyrranus (who we know to be Dooku) approached Jango. We, the viewers, are left with the suggestion that the identity of a dead Jedi has been used by a Sith Lord to order the Clone Army, ostensibly in the name of the Republic.

Everything except the name Tyrranus is also known by the Jedi. Even without that snippet there is much that is questionable about the origins of this Clone Army.

If we are never informed of any outcome of an investigation, nor of any investigation at all then...if the Clone Army appears to have been the work of the Sith, and the end result (Order 66) seems to confirm that it was the work of the Sith then...that doesn't point toward a succesful investigation. In fact it doesn't point to an investigation at all. One might argue that they certainly would have but to suggest that the reason they came to the wrong conclusion because they were up against "superior opposition" is exactly what you railed against earlier in this post."may have"£ "could be" "it all comes true if you just believe hard enough" - because it is not there in the movies.

That I have to imagine that in some way this "superior opposition" is just so darn clever that he fooled everyone, without ever indicating how, or even that anybody ever had the brains to investigate is not good storytelling. It is ommission. It is a gaping plot hole. The "may have" "could be" "it all comes true if you just believe hard enough" is theconstruction of yours of an investihgation stymied by a superior opponent that occurs nowhere in the movies, nor is it even mentioned.

You are not, I hope, going to be playing silly games here are you?

Shall I repeat what I said in my previous post;

Its not a case against the Jedi, it is a case against the story-telling, that's why it is being discussed as a plot hole.

If you attempt to argue this as anything else I will look upon it as trolling and act appropriately.

As for " it rests on nothing at all, since you simply made that up"

Where are we shown an investigation in the movies? Where is the idea that said alleged investigation was stymied by a "superior opponent" developed in the movies? Who's making stuff up?

 

Sifo-Dyas had a vision of a war decided it was best to start building an army to help the Jedi and the republic. Sifo-Dyas informed Dooku who was still a Jedi at this time. Dooku then left the order, killed Sifo-Dyas as a test for Palpatine, then informed Palpatine of this army that was being build for the republic which Palpatine then decided he could use for his own means.

• First problem - Sifo-Dyas was apparently killed before the clones where order.
• Second problem - The contingency orders hadn't been explained.

Palpatine ordered Dooku to order the clones, Dooku then went to order them using Jango Fett as a template. Dooku pretented he was Sifo-Dyas knowing that he had been killed.

There is no real problems with this, if the Jedi found out they would be led back to Sifo-Dyas and left chasing circles.

The problem with the clones wasn't so much where they came from or who ordered them, the problem was the Jedi blindly following and trusting them so easily in battle.

Does it really matter to the viewer?, At least it gives us something to talk about.

 

There is a problem with the second scenario. If the Jedi are lead constantly back to Sifo-Dyas, and he was dead when the army was ordered then...obviously it wasn't him - and obviously whoever it was does not want the Jedi to know who they are. It follows that the army is not to be trusted - and yet they spread themselves out amongst them, defenceless.

Its not just the Jedi either. Nobody in the Republic questions the miraculous discovery of this army?