Binding the saga together - end the 'basher' vs 'gusher' wars!

I got myself thinking yesterday after reading some 'debate' about the Star Wars saga on the 3SA board - and we could already be past the point of no-return - but there will forever be a huge rift between Star Wars fans now that everyone is either a 'basher' or a 'gusher'. And it makes me sad!

We will never again know that solidarity from before, when to simply be identified as a Star Wars fan was enough to instantly form a bond with other fans, and know you were on the same wavelength. That's just not true anymore.

While I would hesitate to label myself as a 'gusher', I know that's what I would be labelled by others because I love the prequel films. And as a 'gusher' (shudder) I have already found myself, upon being introduced to people who are described as huge fans of Star Wars, wondering (and sometimes even asking) whether that includes the prequels. In fact, I find myself needing to know this information!

I think this has led to a weird situation in the fan community, but it may be something we can work to change...

I can empathise with the 'bashers', because they too will feel the sadness I have described above (although they may blame the very existence of the prequels for the problem). And I understand the need to vent their frustrations to other Star Wars fans, and to feel solidarity with those who feel the same way.

Obviously I also empathise with 'gushers', who want everyone to have the chance to enjoy the films as much as they (we) do, and also have the chance to take comfort from proof that they're (we're) not the only ones who feel like they (we) do.

But unfortunately, the sad fact is no amount of reasoned argument from either side will ever change anyone's mind! A basher's intricate dissection of plot-holes or production shortcomings is never[/] going to make a gusher think "hmmm... maybe I was wrong... maybe these films are terrible after all!". But by the same token, a gusher pointing out exactly why they love the films, and everything that is good and great about them, is never going to change a basher's mind, because it won't change the way they feel deep down.

If only there were some other way...

In the times before the prequels, fans were united in their love for the saga, even though many were disappointed with Return of the Jedi in particular, and later the Special Editions. But it is only since the release of The Phantom Menace that the real vocal opposition to ROTJ and the SEs has come out, and it seems that it's also only since then that this has become a genuine problem for fans. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been a regular member of the online community ever since the term 'online community' existed, and I was an active fan before that, but I never knew of this so-called concensus that ROTJ was rubbish! Although, to be fair, the backlash over the SEs was pretty clear at the time, but it was still done with a certain reluctance, and an overall feeling that everything was OK really.

So is it possible to get this feeling back? I would suggest that it may be a case of trying to embrace the saga as a whole, and taking the rough with the smooth. But I am a 'gusher', and I know that argument is often used by my kind in an attempt to sway the naysayers, so I don't expect the idea to be accepted easily by the 'bashers'. But really, is it too great a leap? How many of the 'bashers' do in fact own the DVDs of both prequels? Or how many don't own them? I imagine the answer to the latter would be very few indeed! So it looks like there is already a desire among these fans for everything to be OK again.

However, I'm not naive enough to think this solution is a quick-fix to all the problems. And I enjoy the debates between fans too much to want to turn the community into one where everyone shared the same opinion! But maybe if we all - 'bashers' and 'gushers' alike - stopped trying to change each other's minds, and stopped thinking we're right and everyone else is wrong, then in fact people would start to pay attention to each ot

 

Well said. I totally agree, I think that the catagorising of different types of fans is a large part of the problem. Personally, I love all five movies, and I'm sure I'll love RotS, too. I do have my "favourites", and due to my personal taste in movies, I enjoy some SW movies more than others (see my sig) - but I love all of them, and I accept that each movie has its strengths and its weaknesses. In fact, if I think of my favourite non-SW movies, none of them are "perfect", a movie never can be. Yes, the prequels have their problems, as do the originals, but I believe the prequels have added greater depth, mythology, drama and intruige to the saga - for me, the saga is better and far more enjoyable with the prequels than without them, and I wouldn't want the prequels any other way than they are now. The prequels have been a wonderful part of my life for the last five years, they've given me uncountable hours of happiness and enjoyment. Does that make me a gusher, because I enjoy them, even though I accept that the movies have their problems? I see SW as one big, six-part story, with no movie "better" or "worse" than any other - each has its strengths and weaknesses. As a whole, the SW Saga is simply stunning. It deals with the issues of Good and Evil in a much better way, and to much greater depth, than most fantasy series (not naming any names, but some series can be very black and white - SW isn't like that, it's about good and evil inside of us, compassion vs greed, the struggle between those sides, becoming a balanced and complete human being, as only Luke is truly able to do), it's packed full of action, excitement, drama, an incrdible epic scale, wonderful characters, space battles, swordfights, fantastic villains - surely no one creates villains quite as well as George does! If people want to call me a gusher because I enjoy all five episodes, then so be it - I'm certainly very happy being a gusher, if that's the case! But I don't see myself as a gusher at all - just someone who loves and enjoys a series of movies for what they are.

 

I see where you are coming from. On a Star Wars site such as the JC it is hard to determine the reality behind things. What I mean is that here everyone has their strong opinions and is either a basher or a gusher. Outside of TFN and off the internet things are not always like that. Sometimes a normal fan can come to a SW site and read all about the bashing of every nitpicky details of the PT. They then begin to think that the majority of the people hate the PT. I don't think this is true.

My old sig said "The only people who have problems with the prequels are the critics and the fans."
I think that is true for the most part. If you talk to a normal viewer (not a huge fan, just some guy who goes to the movies) I bet you that guy will say "I loved TPM" or "AOTC was amazing."

-Seldon

 

MarkyMark - you seem to have read my mind and then written my feelings exactly!

I find it upsetting when I am accused of being a gusher, because the implication is that I don't really like the films, I just say I do because I'm too blinkered to see any of the flaws, or because I think George Lucas can do no wrong. Bu the truth is I do know my own mind, and I do know that I love the films!

But it must be equally upsetting for a basher to be told they are simply a victim of their own expectations, or their nostalgia playing tricks on them. And I have used those arguments myself from time to time - I'm just trying to see things from both sides a bit more...

Seldon - I think you're definitely right about the general audience! But I do find myself wondering, when I meet someone in 'real life' who does call themself a Star Wars fan, how they feel about the prequels, and whether we can bond over a love of their mythological subleties, or will we be at odds about what 'proper' Star Wars is. And it feels like there is a level of automatic-bonding which previously existed but is now gone.

Obviously in real life you can just discuss the whole issue with people and come to a compromise. But, to illustrate what I really mean, I recently 'met' Simon Pegg (and Nick Frost) at a comic signing in London, and where five years ago I may have tried to strike up a Star Wars conversation, knowing there would have been a mutual understanding, instead I felt too uncomfortable about it, knowing how he feels about the prequels, so I didn't bother. I knew that he would no longer automatically understand the way I feel, just as I no longer understand the way he feels, even though we are both Star Wars fans and would have understood each other perfectly in the past.

I don't know if anyone else feels like this... maybe it's just me thinking too much about it...

 

The thing is I could care less about what others think about it. I have my opinion and they have their's. I don't have a problem with their feelings at all. I don't blindly love SW, I often see many flaws. This however does not stop me from liking all five movies.

If someone has a different opinion then me, that is fine. I'm not bothered by it.

The thing is CT and PT are like two different films. There are some that are fans of both films, there are some that are only fans of the first film. So there are bound to be differences.

-Seldon

 

I find it upsetting when I am accused of being a gusher, because the implication is that I don't really like the films, I just say I do because I'm too blinkered to see any of the flaws, or because I think George Lucas can do no wrong. Bu the truth is I do know my own mind, and I do know that I love the films!

Oh yeah, I know what you mean. I was quite young when TPM came out, I guess I was about 14, and I went into seeing the movie without reading any reviews of it or anything like that. I absolutely loved every minute of it, it's one of the most memorable movie experiences of my life. It was only sometime later, when I finally got onto the internet, that I realised that there was some anti-TPM feeling among some fans - it really stunned me, actually, because I loved the movie so much! The exact same thing happened with AotC - I enjoyed it even more than TPM if anything, and was shocked to find people criticising the movie so much. I know in my heart and my mind that I love these movies, and if I'm going to be labelled a "gusher" for saying what I truly feel, then something's very wrong.

 

Yes... I agree that it's only really important what I think about the films, and that I love them, and I do take a lot of comfort from that!

I suppose the only thing I'm lamenting is the loss of common identity as a Star Wars fan. The community aspect of being a fan has changed from one of understanding, comfort and camaraderie to one of conflict, uncertainty and animosity.

That has to be a bad thing...

 

This thread is going to end in tears and bad karma.

 

There are many divisions between fans because we are all different. There is nothing to be concerned about.

There is the EU supporter and the EU basher.
The Gusher and the Basher of the films.
There are divisions in anything. Everyone thinks differently and different names will be associated with different beliefs.

-Seldon

 

although i consider myself a basher, that is not to say to i hate the prequels. The original versions of all the films are fine with me.

waht i cant stand is the alterations made to the story and characters.

i am a fan of star wars not george lucas. i am not obligated to love what he does to the star wars movies after he makes them.

 

If the world was full of "gushers" the Jedi Concil Boards would be pretty darn boring. The Same can be said if the world contained bashers "only". There would be very little debate about most topics.

 

I'm more of an oozer than a gusher...

 

War...heh. Do you call this a war? Geeks being unable to agree on the quality of a few scifi films? A strong word. War.

Anyway. I hate the prequels, and am disgusted by many of the Special Edition changes, but I am still a geeky SW fan. So what if someone else likes the prequels for whatever implausible reason. It's not my problem.

Star Wars is dying, and that will eventually unite all the TFN geeks - in funeral.

 

Dying...heh. Do you call this dying? A wonderful film saga expanding into something greater than it ever was before? A strong word. Dying.

 

Here is the thing that really breaks my heart that the prequels are so hated:

I had very low expectations for the prequel trilogy. I thought there was no way Lucas could bring back the magic of the OT after 16 years. Using different actors to play the same characters, I thought, wouldnt work, and having mostly different characters wouldnt work either.

However, I was blown away and pleasantly surprised when I saw TPM. It just FELT like SW. You felt like you were in the SW universe even though it was a different era. The first sight and sound of Ewan MacGregor was what sold it for me. He really convinced me that I was watching a young Alec Guiness. The things that needed to be different were different, and the things that needed to be the same were the same.

The thing that really demoralises me is that a lot of the things that people criticise in the prequels are vintage SW!!!

1. Neimodians' accents? Vintage SW!!!!! Sure, there had never been alien accents before, but it just FELT like and sounded like something that would be in a SW movie. It just felt like something that came from the same imagination that thought up the cool things in the OT.

2. Saving the lightsaber duels until the end of the movie? Vintage SW!!!!!! A lot of people didnt like how the Tattooine fight between Quigon and Maul was so short. Lightsaber duels are supposed to take place at the end of the movie only. They are personal, deep psychological battles that would lose their luster if they occured all throughout the movie.

3. Corny dialogue? Vintage SW!!!

4. Corny titles? Vintage SW!!!!! Just look at the corniest of them all: STAR WARS.

5. Midichlorians? Vintage SW!!!! Come on, the force itself sounds just as hoky as midicholirians, not to mention Jedi mind tricks.

Also, I hate it how some people just dont get what the PT is about. I hear some people complain that Anakin doesnt become Vader until the end of episode 3. Well, yeah, you dont see Anakin until the end of ROTJ, it would make sense that you dont see Vader until the end of ROTS. Lucas said long before the prequels came out that the OT was Anakin's redemption, the PT is his fall.

Also, I heard someone over at aintitcoolnews.com complain that the PT doesnt have "innocont charm". The one I hate the most is "it takes itself too seriously" .. sighhhhhhhh... The PT is a tragedy!!!!!! It doesnt have a happy ending for Christ sake!!!! It isnt supposed to have innocent charm!!!!!! It HAS to take itself seriously!!!! And these people claim to want dark movies????? SHEESH!!

 

Interesting, rpeugh, none of the things you mention are things I feel are wrong with the prequels, not necessarily so. The NEimodians dialects are great, like the line, "We would never do anything without...". These are indeed vintage SW, but wether the PT would be vintage SW or new SW isn't the point. The point is the PT films are bad stuff. TPM has it's moments, AOTC is a crime. No amount of vintage dialects or lightsabers can undo this. It has to do with completely different (lack of) qualities. And, as author MOOG suggests, some of us will continue to see our truth, and some will see theirs.
"Binding the saga together"; that's what Lucas ain't doing, so there can be no unity among fans either.

 

I agree with rpeugh.

Look we all have our own opinions.
To call anyone who likes the PT blinded by a love of Lucas is totally wrong. I judge all of the films after I see them. I liked TPM because I consider it to be a great film, far better than Return of the Jedi.
I have some issues with AOTC, but I love that too.
There are reasons why some people like the PT, I really think very few don't like PT.
With the SEs, how does it matter. Whether Greedo fires or Han shoots first, it does not matter it is still A New Hope. Nothing changes. They are such small details.

Who does not like the PT?
1. Those who had high expectations for what it would be like.
2. Those who imagined Vader back in action and Han Solo as a kid.

-Seldon

 

I also want to remind everyone of this,
"As I've stated before, there will be no Lucas bashing in Saga. Period. This is a place for discussion, not bashing. If you disagree with Lucas argue your point. Blatant bashing will not persuade anybody to your point of view and it will not foster intelligent discussion. "
Forum moderator Spike_Spiegel

So don't get into bashing because our moderators do not want it in this forum.

-Seldon

 

Who does not like the PT?
1. Those who had high expectations for what it would be like.
2. Those who imagined Vader back in action and Han Solo as a kid.

1. I had no expectations beyond that it would be consistent with the original trilogy storywise, and perhaps it would be as good effects-wise, but more modern.
2. I'd like to see Vader, but Han Solo as a kid? Where did you find that? LOL. STAR WARS doesn't need Han Solo, it needs a rollercoaster ride of a script which incorporates silly space action, cool villains, a flowing story, space dogfights, interesting costumes and the Force as an energy field.

 

Well, here's a person (myself) with no safe home on this site. I can't hide my disappointment with the new films and so can't hang out with the gushers. And I can't truly hate the SW films since I find most other blockbuster product today to be less interesting and/or rewarding than the prequels. On one hand, I find a lot of gusher remarks to be unbelieavably passive-aggressive (my favorite is a constant use of the word "can"--as in, I "can" enjoy these movies and you "can't", instead of I "do" and you "don't", implying anyone disappointed with the prequels is suffering from a mental block). On the other, I find the Basher's Sanctuary irritatingly off key and excessive, with opinions that occasionally descend into the ridiculously minute.

Then again I don't think I'm a SW fan. I'm a film lover for whom ANH and Empire are two of his favorite films of all time, fetishistically so. I've never read a SW novel or a comic book, I never had any toys, and I only have a few video games. It's the movies only, and ANH and Empire in particular. Their energy, focus, and economy (and the latter two qualities do not exist much in the prequels, sorry) were partly what sent me to film school from 90 to 94 and into the film industry for two years afterwards. At their best, the prequels can only remind me, somewhat obliquely, that GL remains immune to a lot of the trendier filic styles and indebted to an old-fashioned sense of narrative morality, but that's it. Still, they hint at more than they are.

To echo Ree Yees, the notion that every disappointed SW fan of fanboy (neither of which I am, obviously) are disappointed because they didn't get what they want in these new films is entirely erroneous. I don't care what's in these films (Jar Jar, kids, ideas reused and resused again, what have you) and never will. HOW those things are presented is the matter. Had they been presented earnestly, with concise wit and a storyline pruned of nauseating repetitions, tangents, didacticism, convenient character abberations, and cliches, there would be no problem for me.

Clearly, the dividing lines between satisfied and unsatisfied SW customers lies in tow key areas:

1) the qualification that the prequels (and for my money Jedi) either match or don't match the same caliber of product as the original films.

and

2) the ability or willingness of those fans to submit to what's been given them in the new films, or to imagine what could have been in those films.

Because in the case of 1) I cannot go along with the idea that Clones, and to a lesser extent Menace, is as precise, labored over, focused a story with as identifiable characters as Empire and ANH, and because 2) I admit to being way too willing and able to see the need for imrpovements becase the needles, small negligencies (admittedly small, I said) compound so quickly and dearly in these new films that it distances me from them, for those reasons I guess I always will be a basher.

But I don't want anyone thinking I'm the same as any other basher here (Rebel Scum is the closest to me in thought and we still differ on plenty of things) and I don't presume that of any gusher, although I've met more than a few who've presented a truly dark side.

 

one of the biggest problems i have with some "gushers" is the way they consider themselves better fans than others.

in my opinion, loving the original edition of ANH is the only qualification for being a star wars fan.

fans are not obligated to love every subsequent instalment as much as the first, neither are they obligated to support george lucas when he tampers with his original films.

fans need to remember what they are fans of. i love george lucas's star wars, even though i dont agree with what lucas has since done to it.

 

One of the biggest problems I have with some "bashers" is the way they consider themselves more mature and intelligent than those who love the SW saga (not just ANH and TESB) and consider their opinions fact.

I'm not directing this towards anyone in particular; that's just my stance on the matter.

 

One of the biggest problems I have with some "bashers" is the way they consider themselves more mature and intelligent than those who love the SW saga (not just ANH and TESB) and consider their opinions fact.

there are tons of people here who think they're better than everyone else and consider their beliefs facts.

both "bashers" and "gushers" show these traits, so dont direct it at just one group.

 

I agree, I just encounter that type of behavior a lot more from the "basher" side of the fence.

 

Well, it does seem that a larger percentage of bashers are older (say, around 30).