Binding the saga together - end the 'basher' vs 'gusher' wars!

It would appear that many have a love/hate relationship with Star Wars. I can think of no other films that have been so heavily scrutinized over such a long period of time. I really enjoyed ROTS but at the same time found my "adult" sensibilities encroaching on and perhaps marring the experience. One of the bigger drawbacks of the PT is that we already know how it ends. But despite this it was still a visceral rush seeing it play out. I saw the original in 77'and it left an indelible mark on my psyche. Eliciting some of those childhood experiences was always going to be a tough ask for any of the PT films. But for some it appears the level of expectation rose to anything less than the perfect film was not going to cut it. Although I'm enamoured by all six films to a certain extent, I can fully appreciate and sympathise with those that feel frustrated at the films' shortcomings and support the idea of dispensing with the trite Bashing or Gushing polarized opinions that some espouse. It's indeed possible to exist between these two extremes. In reality there seems to be more of an overarching ambivalence towards the movies that I've tried to qualify for myself. If you look at the saga as "low-brow" adult films as opposed to "high-brow" children's films, (which is what I personally believe they are), their credibility and validity is doomed from the start. I was 5 in 77'and like most discovered something new upon repeat viewings of the OT and was unconsciously nurturing my nascent appreciation of orchestral music, (my favourite part of all six films). As an adult I'm envious of youngsters coming to the saga for the first time with no preconceived expectations.

With all the resources that GL has at his disposal, it's natural to ask why he didn't develop the scripts, (especially the nub of contention for many - the dialogue) to their full potential. The recently released ROTS soundtrack with the bonus DVD was particularly poignant in highlighting the operatic form of the saga, with much of the acting occuring "between the lines". For me it will always be the iconic images and sounds that resonate. I've never walked into a Star Wars film expecting Shakespearean eloquence, but I can understand how the inherent problems with dialogue cast a pall over the saga (esp. the PT) for many. For me it stems from the before mentioned adult/child point of view as well as the "form" of film making that GL had committed himself to. The OT had the advantage of a simpler plot with perfunctory dialogue adequately filling out the narrative with the odd aphorism thrown in for good measure. It was more about archetypes than subtle relationships. It also had the endearing insouciance of the cast and the glib presence of the redoubtable Han Solo. It had it's flaws, but as a child I never noticed them. The PT however is more complex in it's storyline but lacks the concomitant sophistication in dialogue required to convey it's subtle relationships and political subterfuge to be emotionally engaging for an adult audience. Particularly one conditioned to hyperbole laden, hyper-real dialogue that over glorifies the human condition. I can also understand how this is in stark contrast to the production levels, soundtrack, costumes etc. which are all executed to the highest standards. Nevertheless, my appreciation for the scope and vision of the saga will never diminish, no matter how "grown-up" I become.

 

My mother thinks the two trilogies blend together to made one very well made Saga.

I agree with her.

 

I thought the sun shined out of Lucas' @$$...

 

i see a saga. Let us end this pointless conflict and rule the galaxy as father and son! (Me being the father of course. You're grounded!)

 

I want to chime in on this topic.

I used to be what people would call a "basher", but I've softened my opinions lately. Coming onto these boards and reading what people have to say about all the movies helped a lot. Maybe deep down I wanted to like the PT, and was looking for something to convince me that the prequels weren't as bad as I thought they were.

They could have been much better, in my opinion, but the fact that many people do like them so much gives credibility to the argument that they are Star Wars every bit as much as the originals, even though they are very different from the originals.

I agree with WEEPS72 that there was no way that the PT would mimic the OT closely because the OT had the luxury of very well-defined conflicts and relationships between a very small number of characters. The PT necessarily had more complexity and complication in the plot AND the relationships between the characters, and so it was always going to have a different feel to it...a less focused feel, because of the scale of things it had to cover. If you think about it, if the PT had tried to recapture the magic of the OT by introducing and sticking to just a small number of characters, I think alot of people would be unsatisfied with having a similiarly small peak into the GFFA. I think it makes sense that the PT, having been made second chronologically, would expand our view. But the feel of the movies, which is a bone of contention for many bashers, is definitely going to be different because of that.

I'm certainly not a gusher now; I think the PT could have been made better in a lot of ways that would not have infringed on Lucas' ability to portray his own vision, which is what he should do. But I do think that within the framework of HIS vision...there was a lot of improvement that could have been made.

That said, I think over time that the bashers vs. gushers conflict will die down as people get used to the new movies. Just like me, people who want to love Star Wars will eventually see things in the new movies that they like. But it's going to take time...some people will get used to them more slowly than others. As long as they're still on these boards and still watching the prequels ocassionally, that's a sign that they haven't given up on the saga entirely.

Certainly, in terms of these discussions, slamming people is no way to convince them. I didn't change my opinion of the PT because someone told me I was stupid for not liking it; I changed my opinion by finding new ways to see the movies, rather than always evaluating them on what I wanted them to be.

 

First of all, I love the Star Wars SAGA!


I agree with WEEPS72 that there was no way that the PT would mimic the OT closely

That is why the PT is so great, it is not a rehash of the OT. Which was one of my greatest fears.

 

Good to see this thread's still going!

After having seen ROTS (4 times so far) I do believe the petty arguments will become a thing of the past. I think maybe the fact that the story is now complete will stop people feeling the need to fervently defend or complain about the new films, and we can all start gaining a bit of perspective.

Not strictly relevant, but my parents have been converted into SW fans over the last week - I'm really pleased! My dad took me to see ANH and TESB as a small child, but he was never really that interested. But I told them to watch TPM and AOTC last week, then we took them to see ROTS at the weekend, and they loved them all (TPM more than AOTC, but ROTS more than both). Now they can't get enough of discussing it - it's great! I've now topped it off by buying my dad the OT DVDs for his birthday (which was today), so no doubt there will be more discussions to come... and you won't hear me complaining!

Sorry... I just felt like sharing that...

 

I envy you, Moog. You've seen RotS four times already; I only saw it twice in theaters, and within the span of 24 hours of seeing it for the first time at midnight!

I also envy you, because YOUR parents probably don't think there will be an Episodes VII, VIII, and IX. My dad always argues, "There's too much money involved. He said he was done after Return of the Jedi!" And when I pointed out that he mentioned doing prequels in 1977 just a couple hours ago, I took note of how fast he changed the subject. Is there any way to convince him that the Saga is complete? I'd appreciate it.

 

Star Wars is very existential. Star Wars is what you are. If you're a cynic, the six movies don't mesh, however, if you're an optimist, you'll see that the six movies make a Saga and THERE ARE NO PLOT HOLES. Star Wars was always the story of Anakin Skywalker, the savior of the Star Wars people, and his two children. People are just a little confused because the movies are meant to be watched in order. The movies don't really come out and say that a higher power called the greater Force is quiding these characters to their destinies. The greater Force is not mentioned by name in movies, because it's called other things like the Force, the gods and even C-3P0. The greater Force doesn't care what you call it. The greater Force only cares that people care for one another and the greater Force even wants people to care for the droids. Notice the droids feel pain, they're scared of what they perceive as death, and notice that the Chosen One even tells his former master to not make fun of R2. That's why there are heros on both sides.

 

A good point from JANGO10 per the differences between the trilogies. This is what I liked most about TPM, it was not what many expected. It's the nature of the differences though, (romantic and political etc.) that put the saga into territory that was going to be difficult to convincingly portray within the limits of the film making form that was established in the OT, eg. film length, editing style, visual story telling etc. My above post, (and this one) are purely speculative as to why there is a schism of opinion. I don't necessarily strictly adhere to the points I made above, rather I was attempting to look at it with an open mindset in the spirit of this thread. And as DARTHIRONCLAD rightfully points out, (in the vein of Yoda), much of what you make of the saga depends on what you bring to it.

 

one of the biggest problems i have with some "gushers" is the way they consider themselves better fans than others.

I agree with you there but " bashers" come off the same way. They always make it sound like they know how the true SW story should go. I know its their opinion, but how some present their opinion makes them very arrogant.

I've read lot of posts from this thread and I can only say I guess change hurts. Some hate the way SW has changed others don't.

 

I always liked the prequels, they were certainly different then the originals but that was good, it showed maturity and growth. Even so I have things I don't like about certain aspects of the prequels but not enough to say the prequels let down the saga. It is kind of sad when you feel you have to say you like either trilogy. I mostly focus on the aspects I enjoyed rather then the negative-unless it's really big.

 

I am not better for enjoying more of this saga than others, I am just more fortunate.

 

one of the biggest problems i have with some "gushers" is the way they consider themselves better fans than others.

I've lost count of the times I've seen bashers act like THEY are the better fans, or the only TRUE fans -- they don't "just take whatever Lucas dishes out," unlike "gushers," who "don't know what a quality movie is and prefer style over substance" (direct quote) and who have "amazingly managed to convince themselves that the prequels are good movies" (another direct quote).

So it goes both ways. Neither "side" is innocent.

The OT can stand on it's ownas a 3-movie story with a start, middle, and end, but what we're getting with the prequels is a false start, a real start, and a middle.

Kindly don't act like you speak for everyone, as with the pronoun "we."

 

I've been fighting the basher/gusher wars for over three years now, and frankly, I'm tired of it. So bear with me while I write an open letter to bashers, though of course "gushers" can read it too:

To bashers:

One common thread I see in most basher posts is a feeling of disappointment with the prequels, the feeling that they could've been better. Allow me to say that I understand those feelings, on more levels than you might think. You see, I used to be one of you. I didn't like TPM at all when I first saw it. I thought it was crap, a toy commercial, far worse than ROTJ, which then -- as now -- was my least favorite movie of the saga.

It wasn't until two years later that I reassessed my opinion, due in no small part to The Lard Biscuit's six-part essay on TPM. Now, please don't roll your eyes. I'm not asking you to read it or saying that if you do read it it will change your mind. Many of you have read it and it had no effect. I'm just mentioning it because I'd feel like I wasn't giving due credit if I didn't.

But anyway...I watched it again, and I found that I really liked it. It's not without its flaws, and I have never said otherwise, though I've been accused more than once of thinking it's perfect. But then I have yet to see a movie that DOESN'T have flaws. In some cases, I can overlook a movie's flaws, and in others, I can't. In TPM's case, I can. I realize that bashers can't, and I'm not judging you for it; I no doubt feel the same way about movies that you love.

I like the other two prequels very much as well, though they certainly have their flaws, and I still consider ESB and TPM to be the best movies in the saga. Again, I understand that many of you disagree. That's your right. However, I ask of you: put yourself in my place, or the place of other people who love the prequels (maybe they don't love them as much as the OT, maybe they do). How would you feel if you saw little but bashing, hatred, and negativity toward something you loved at every website you went to? That in order to avoid said negativity, you had to take refuge at private sites?

You might say that I'm taking all this too seriously, that I need to lighten up and remember that SW is just a bunch of movies. Yes, they are "just a bunch of movies" when you come right down to it. But I find that remark disingenuous. Most of the bashers I've seen take SW quite seriously, and in fact, that is why they are so angry about Lucas's refusal to release the pre-SE versions of the OT onto DVD. I agree that he should release them, for historical value if nothing else, but I do not want to get into that debate, so I'll leave it at that.

But aside from that...I recall an article written by a journalist in which he begged Lucas to turn directorship of Episode 3 over to someone else, because what he felt were the best two episodes of the OT (ESB and ROTJ) were directed by other people, and he felt Lucas's direction of the PT so far was lacking. I saw enthusiastic agreement/approval of that article amongst bashers, which further indicates to me that they do in fact take SW seriously. So really, I would appreciate it if you would not dismiss what I'm saying, and honestly try the exercise I mentioned above. Again, I'll ask the question: how would you feel if you saw little but bashing, hatred, and negativity toward something you loved at every website you went to? That in order to avoid said negativity, you had to take refuge at private sites? Wouldn't you feel just a bit disheartened if all you wanted to do was discuss something you loved with other people who loved it just as much but instead were confronted with some of the most extreme hatred imaginable -- the likening of its creator to war criminals such as Saddam Hussein and Milosevic, claims about how it was the worst movie (or whatever) ever made, that those who liked it didn't know what a quality movie (or whatever) was and preferred style over substance, and smirky comments such as, "You're amazing...you've actually managed to convince yourself that it was good"?

I said ea

 

I agree. I liked the prequels to this wonderful saga. Yes the dialog was weak at times, and yes it could have been improved upon a lot, but overall I loved it. Folks for those of us who grew up wiht the original trilogy, we gotta remember that Lucas , Speilberg, and those other big cats redefined story telling for all of us. We learned from OT that yes we can write and make up better sifi stories.
We can creat our own worlds with our vision and not follow some formula.
I think the main problem folks had wiht the trilogy, was that it didnt tell sifi stories in terms of 1999-2005 style. I mean come on Babylon 5 had the greatest political storytelling on a sifi show ever. STNG had the best overall storytelling in any sifi series out there .. Well Maybe DS was better but i hated the last episode. Anyway back to the point. SIFI stories MAtured after the OT as well as us.
Mr Lucas, to his credit, stuck to his style of story writing back in 1977. So yes while we had a lot of cheesy moments in the PT, It was still Star wars at heart.
Like someone said earlier, OT was made for our generation PT for this one.
As much as I hated some scenes of Pt, I felt like I was watching Star Wars still.
I understand those folks out there who say OT is the best and nothing can compare to it. You are entilled to your opinion. But just please give the PT a chance again. Go see it or watch them in order. Maybe the story will make sense then.
I was one of those folks who read all the spoilers early and knew what each film was gonna present. Maybe Lucas Film should have told more aobut the story and casual fans could have had a better understanding.. I dont know.. But folks the movies were made, a lot of us went to go see them and I know a lot of us will buy the dvd. Lets just be Star Wars fans again and stop this pointless "Rebellion"

Oh and Yes I liked Ewoks and JAR JAR BINKS so eat on that haters