Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Wormie2, Apr 6, 2002.
ttg, they come on paramount comedy everyday. 7pm.
What does that have to do with anything?
"Do you really think they care one iota about the strife in the Middle East? NO it's the oil contained therin that worries them and as far as they are concerned the whole lot of us can go to hell in a handbasket as long as their precious oil is safe and if that means annihilating whole civilisations of innocents then so be it! I know that's an overgeneralisation but ask yourselves this... why do they not send in crack assassination teams to take out the main culprits and their officers? because the politicians are tutting and pulling their faces we are also arming these people!"
Yes, the oil in the middle east is the overriding interest in most of the West. However, this is not some purely American vice. The Americans and the British favored keeping up the sanctions regime in Iraq, trying to get more weapons inspectors, etc. It was the French and the Russians on the security council who wanted everything to go away, so they could go back to buying Oil from Saddam. US and British policy does not put Oil policy first when it comes to Iraq, because of Saddam. Because he has used WOMD on his own people, launched missiles at 3 of his neighbors, invaded another, and continues to try to devolop more WOMD. Gee, you think someone should do something about that?
Oh, and when people talk about Israel and America in bed with each other, what of Oil interests then? Isn't that contradictory?
What saddens me is that America doesn't favor trying to encourage democracy...or at least not openly arm dictatorships. I think there should be little surprise shown when we find that people in these nations get spoon-fed anti-western propaganda, and then don't like us. Big surprise. American policy here is flawed, but not the maniacally dangerous thing that people here insinuate.
And if we could send in Special Forces to kill Saddam, we would. It's not as easy as the movies, you know.
Please note the "they" at the top of the statement I was refering both to American governments AND the English m'dear I have a particular hatred of politicians of ALL countries not just the Americans! ALL politicians are dangerous they hold our lives in their hands and think they can do just what the hell they like to us... we are born free human beings and then these *****ers think they can own us and play their own egotistical games of chess with us...
Ah. Which is why I responded: "The Americans and the British favored keeping up the sanctions regime in Iraq,..."
As far as politicians and playing chess with our lives, I can't really disagree.
R7, you seem like an intelligent guy. You make good points. Therefore you KNOW for a fact that the election was fixed in Florida by Bush's brother.
Katherine Harris, Bush's presidential campaign chairwoman, paid $4m dollars to Database Technologies to go thru Floridas vorting rolls and remove anyone "suspected" of being a former felon. She did so with the blessing of the Governor of Florida, Jeb Bush. Guess who his brother is? The law states that ex-felons cannot vote in Florida. The fact is, that means 31% of all black men in Florida were prevented from voting. Fair enuff, the law is the law, and Florida can govern itself as it sees fit. But, and heres the payoff, Black Floridians are overwhelmingly Democrats - and, guess what, Gore received 90% of their votes. That is, 90% of those that were ALLOWED to vote.
In what appears to be a mass fraud, Bush, Harris and co. not only removed thousands of black felons from the electoral roll, they also removed thousands of black citiznes who never commited a crime in their lives - along with thousands who had committed misdemeanours. Bet youd love not being able to vote cos you got a speeding ticket last year...
173,000 voters were PERMANENTLY removed from the electoral roll. Miami Dade, Florida largets county, 66% of the voters removed were black. 8000 Floridians were removed cos another state - and this is a doozy - gave a list to Database Tech which claimed that all the names on the list were former convicted felons who had moved to Florida. Which state offered Jeb and George a hand like this? Texas.
Dubya was officially credited with receving 537 more votes in Florida that Gore. Would thos people who were barred have made a difference in Florida, and ultimately the USA? Well, you tell me mate.
"We do not recognise the outcome of the election , because we think its flawed and we are dealing with our friends to figure out how to deal with this flawed election" Dubya, commenting on Mugabes election in Zimbabwe.
But you were right about 1 thing. Bush aint a cretin, like I said. Hes a calculating SOB.
If you dont like what ive said, feel free to respond. This is a PUBLIC forum, after all.
Ah. Which is why I responded: "The Americans and the British favored keeping up the sanctions regime in Iraq,..."
Ah, my apologies m'dear I'm a little tired today and I missed that bit!
no prob, DQ!
"Dubya was officially credited with receving 537 more votes in Florida that Gore. Would thos people who were barred have made a difference in Florida, and ultimately the USA? Well, you tell me mate."
IF the butterfly ballot in Palm Beach county didn't confuse the hell out of the old Jewish voters, it would have changed the outcome of the State and nation as well.
It was a messy, incompetent boondoggle. I think the main arguement was in what to do about it...and I think it would have set an even WORSE precedent (not President) to alter the outcome after the fact through selective recounts and other jurymandering. Of course, I had hoped that Dubya would have called on a recount of the entire state in response to Gore calling for a recount in 4 (heavily democratic) counties (recounts, by nature, always turn up MORE votes, and therefore a recount where you obtain 75% of the vote is more likely to help...same effect as the felons).
Where people lose their heads is in the 'fixing the state' assertions. Even if what you set out is completely true, and *intentional*, it is wrong. It is illegal. However, I get the sense that people claim it was done in order to get that slim margin in the state...which was unprecedented. The GOP in Florida could not have had any clue that the state would be decided by less than 100,000 votes. Less than 10,000 votes. Less than 1,000 votes.
Moreover, there is a case to be answered by the Democratic Party, in attempting to discount ballots and get selective recounts. Their actions had the distinction of occurring AFTER the election, which is more worrying. If the decision had been overturned and the state granted to Gore, it may have served the will of the people more accurately...but it also would have been a much clearer case of 'stealing' the election. If Jeb Bush had attempted to interfere in the process AT ALL in the post-election mess, there would have been a field day.
I have no doubt more people intended to vote for Gore in Florida. To claim that Bush 'stole' the election, though, I disagree with. And only those predisposed toward polemicism or overstating the case can compare Florida to Zimbabwe.
I'm not sure how this went down in England. I was in Holland and America for most of the drama, and serving as the interpreter for the American Electoral system for the Europeans with me. Not good times. Bad times. Embarressing. But, I'm pretty aware of the external perspective.
Democrat or Republican I believe there is a greater force behind them.
Greed possibly... ACK I HATE politicians they can start wars in foreign countries send over hundreds of kids to get blown up and murdered but they can't ban Fox Hunting!!!! Mind that's cos most of the Lords do it anyhow that's like asking me to ban Heavy Metal isn't it...
OOOOooooo brb... I'm going to find a nice fox hunting support site and give them some REAL abuse WHY didn't I think of that before what an excellent outlet for some pent up aggression lets see how long it is before I get banned from the site... SCUM
Just been watching the news and a protestor on behalf of the Palestinians referred to Tone as "Bush's Bellydancer"!
Bush loves simply inflammatory lines.
"The evil people."
Oh boy....I wish he wouldn't do that.
It's called propaganda Wormie... these words are VERY carefully scripted and used to make people feel more anger than perhaps they would do normally!
I know that. And I know they work. Which is what REALLY upsets me. That people are so easily swayed by well placed words. Ticks me off.
It's sad to see sometimes just how easily the populus are swayed by politicians words... You're obviously one of the few who sees through the words m'dear which is nice to see INFACT it's downright SCARY to see how many people don't see past the words and 'get' the propaganda because it's how the governments of our respective countries 'control' them and condition them to do their bidding! or am I just far to cynical for my own good...
No doubt it is propaganda...(The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause. In order to take action, the respective parties disseminate their reasons for taking such actions. It does not automatically denote distortions of the truth, lies, or maliscious purpose, though it can certainly be used for those aims. It does represent vested interest/bias, though.)...
...but with all of the information sources available in the West, do you really think they can 'control' us??
Salmon Rushdie said that he believes Oswald killed JFK, because something else happening was TOO BIG a story to make it this long. Societies and individuals work like that. In societies where people are spoon-fed their news through the censors, it is far easier to feed propaganda.
We may have all the available information available in the West but, not everyone has the intelligence to weed out the propaganda from the facts and usually the media go hand in hand with the governemts of countries as what better way to get it to the people! You only need to watch the news to see that about 50% of it is blatant propaganda and the people lap it up and they generally (in this country especially) believe everything they see and hear on that evil magic box called TV!
Yes, the media sends out the information the Govt releases quite willingly, and will pass that info along to make sure it has access in the future.
However, especially in the US, the media have a taste for blood when it comes to catching the Govt in a lie, or finding a case of false propaganda (Watergate's legacy). I just think you are overstating the link between Free Press and govt. no big deal, really.
So, who's seen the latest Ali G movie?
believe everything they see and hear on that evil magic box called TV!
Truth in point who has seen the queen mums body? i bet she is in hiding with elvis, kurt and marilyn.
All we have seen is a box and alot of tv coverage about it.
25 years since the latest big celebration of monarcy nowadays nobody cares.
So they "kill" off a few royals, margaret first (probably in the barhamas she loved it there or something) this gets our attention then the big one the queen mum.
This puts the spot light of the royals JUST like they wanted it to be, for queenies coronation thingy. The people again find a special place in their hearts for the royal family.
The queen mum was well know for saving the royal family once, has she done it again by hiding in the basement for the rest of her days?
CAN YOU PROVE ME WRONG?
Where is Elvis nowadays? I haven't seen him since he got sacked from Tescos.
You have a point Jumping Jedi
but the Queen Mum is 102 years old . It is extremly rare to find people to exceed beyond
Ali G was crap just a few giggles here and there.