Bleeding Hearts call Anakin a mass murderer

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 0Bl-WAN, May 28, 2002.

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  1. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    Hector, Anakin did get mad a couple times. But niether time did he do something that was irreversable.

    Anakin yelled at Zam Wessel, "tell us, NOW!" ...and he wildly charged Dooku.

    He lost his temper three times, but only with the Tuskens did it fully boil over. With Zam and Dooku, Anakin was able to calm himself and regain his composure.

    ...oh give me a break. Killing the Tusken puppies is the same as killing the children of Nazis? Get the * out of here. Don't turn this into a holocaust debate. The Tusken Raiders do not represent the Jews.
  2. Savle_Sostas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 2
    This has been discussed at length in another thread. Nice to see we all respect principles of democracy such as freedom from arbitrary torture and the rule of law. Isn't it great when people agree that it is just to summarily execute people for the crimes of other people who share their ethnic background?

    EDIT: "All history hitherto, ...etc"
  3. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Seriously, Tusken Raiders are savage animals. Their joy comes from killing and torturing others.

    Isn't it great when people agree that it is just to summarily execute people for the crimes of other people who share their ethnic background?

    Tuskens are not people. In the SW universe, humans aren't the only people. Jar-Jar is a person, Chewie is a person, Nute Gunray is a person. However, Tusken Raiders are not people! They clearly have no ability to express remorse and sympathy. They only kill and torture.
  4. Hector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 3
    Seriously, Tusken Raiders are savage animals. Their joy comes from killing and torturing others.

    PPOR.
  5. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    PPOR??? HAVE YOU EVEN SEEN A STAR WARS MOVIE???
  6. Hector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 3
    You've got to be kidding me.
  7. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    OBI - you just don't get it. It's was an ANALOGY to show you that killing women and children is not right, even for something as horrible as the holocaust. Killing the innocent in retribution against the Tuskens is murder. The children had nothing to do with Shmi's death (and I doubt the women did either).

    Since you keep referring to them as animals (probably only because Anakin did), here's another bleeding heart analogy for you. . . .

    If a bull kills your mother, are you going to slaughter all the cows and calves in the herd?

    ;)


    EDIT: I hear your words Savle . . . "If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it."
  8. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    Everyone is missing the point with this whole "human interest" angle.

    The Tusken Raiders ARE NOT human. Nor are they one of the millions of species of beings that have come to form mutually beneficial relationships throughout the galaxy. There are some good humans; there are some bad humans. There are some good Rodarians; there are some bad Rodarians. ETC ETC.

    All Tusken Raiders are viscious, blood-thirsty, merciless monsters.

    Is Obi-Wan a murderer for killing the Acklay? Did Anakin add another murder to his rap-sheet by killing the Nexxu? Did Jango Fett murder the Reek? Did Luke murder the Rancor?

    We cannot judge the alien beings in the Star Wars universe by their appearances, we must judge them by their behavior. Have the Tusken Raiders ever presented any redeaming quality? No? Have they ever exhibited any outward intelligence? No, other than in creative killing. Then what is it about the Tuskens that makes their lives more valuable than a Acklay, Nexxu, Reek, Rancor, etc?


    Aggie-Wan, If a bull ever comes in my mother's yard, kidnaps her, and tortures her to death for a month, I swear to you, I will hunt down and slaughter every bull, cow and calf in the world. Then I will open a McDonalds.
  9. Savle_Sostas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 2
    I'll accept that the Tuskens are uncivilised and brutish but do we know for a fact that they're remorseless? We talking in sweeping generalisations in order to justify the actions of a character who many want to see sympathetically. If it wasn't Anakin who carried out the slaughter but Dooku for example, or even a minor character like Nute Guneray would anyone defend their actions so varaciously?

    We see the Tuskens as primitive and therefore different. Its just their culture that is different, and indeed more violent, but that does not justify slaughtering people who did not commit any crime. I've said in another thread, does anyone honestly beleive every Tusken in the camp took turns beating up on Shmi so that they're all guilty, and I include the kids in that. I believe we see alot of parallels in this that we see in our own world and this forces some to justify these actions.

    EDIT: The Tuskens have shown creative intelligence, they ride single file to hide their numbers, they set up organised camps with shelters, they made fires to keep warm, they posted guards to protect the encampment.
  10. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Bulls are different. They don't encourage each other to kill people. The Tuskens do. Proof:
    The Tuskens travel single file to "hide their numbers." That seems to indicate to me that they are up to no good and that hunting for people is a group event.
    The Tuskens will come back for more. If a bull gets scared away, it ain't coming back for more.
    The Tuskens took Shmi and tortured her in a tent with their whole so called "family" of Tuskens right there.
  11. Meatypants Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    All Tusken Raiders are viscious, blood-thirsty, merciless monsters.

    PPOMFR! You don't know this! You're assuming their guilt based on ten minutes of screen time, including ANH!

    And the funniest thing is that you are trying to justify a mass murder based on emotional/psychological distress, and you're calling others a "bleeding heart!" Who's the bad stereotype in this thread?
  12. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Sterotypes and prejudices against Tuskens (or any other ethnicity / species) is all this is. Generalizations.

    EDIT: Fox, I noticed you said you would kill all bulls . . . what about the cows and calves ;)

    The point of the scene was to show exactly what Anakin is capable of when he cannot control his feelings. Hey, in the end, he's going to be a mass murderer anyways. If you disagree, tell that to Admiral Piett and Captain Needa :p
  13. Hector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 3
    All Tusken Raiders are viscious, blood-thirsty, merciless monsters.

    That is obviously your point. I'd like to see you make a case for it given their 45-seconds of total screen time.

    There is a reason that GL decided to show women and children in AOTC, just as there is a reason to show their village. Nomads and hunters? Yes. Animals? Not quite.

    Luke came into their territory and suffered the consequences. If they were vicious blood-thirsy mercilless monsters, they would've killed him outright, yes? You're basing your theory on them taking pot-shots at the pod-racers? Although it comes closer to the mark, it still dosen't make a case for the Tuskens blood-thirsty, merciless monsters. After all, aren't the RACE ORGANIZERS and the spectators more directly responsible for any destruction and death in the race? Heck, Sebulba killed more people (deliberatly) during the race, didn't he?
  14. PokeAlex Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    Ever since seeing ANH as a kid it's been in my mind that the Tuskens are pretty much evil; feared by everybody and constantly up to no good.

    It's movie mythology, I think it's perfectly acceptable to create an entire race of just plain nogoodnicks. You guys are trying to defend Tusken rights or something. THEY AREN'T REAL.
  15. Hector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 3
    No one is trying to defend "Tusken rights." At issue is whether Anakin is justified in killing them.
  16. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Well if I were in a pasture of bulls and they were a threat to me, I'd kill them all. If one of the bulls tortured my mom for a month before she died, I would hunt down every bull within range and kill it. I would dedicate my life to killing bulls. Anakin killing all the Tuskens will keep that group from ever torturing another person again.
    As for the "we don't know if all tuskens are bad because they only see 45 seconds of screen time," you're missing the point. We can't speculate about whether or not they secretly have feelings. We just don't know. But what has been presented to us in the movies is that they are absolutely nothing but savages.
  17. BellyButton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    You're all missing something

    The scene in AOTC is a direct reference to John Ford's The Searchers, eg the campfire, the dogs, how Ani lowers himself off the rock, the tents, cutting a way in, finding the captive... There are differences: Ani isn't Martin - it looks to me like he's Ethan, the psychotic, revengeful, obsessive...murderer
  18. Savle_Sostas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 2
    Couldn't agree more PokeAlex. It does sound silly but then everything in these forums sounds silly when you bash yourself over the head and think "its not real".

    I just find it scary that people are attempting to justify a slaughter which was clearly meant to symbolise Anakin's fall to the dark side. It was meant to show how he murdered innocent people. But again, I'm just a liberal/commie (just to let people know the two are very different but hey, who needs to be accurate?).
  19. Jar Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    Ok well, believe it or not this forum has had several threads on this exact issue! :eek:

    It's not as though it will change anyone's minds, but here were my thought's on this matter from a different thread:

    ---

    I find the film to be chocked full of irony for two quotes that dawned on me:

    "Attachment is forbidden, Possesion is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say that we are encouraged to love."

    ****

    "Not just the men, but the women and the children. They're like animals, so I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"


    Just putting those two quotes together, you realize that Anakin's actions betray the Jedi order and it's code of behavior. In the novelization, as he kills the tuskens he does not tire but instead gains more and more power and speed. He feels incredible power from the force, and I think it is easy to tell that this is not the light side that is aiding him.

    ---

    I must congradulate Mr. Lucas! He has managed to get his point across and he has many folks believing that Anakin's actions were not a slip into darkness but a justifiable reaction to the situation. What can you say, the man's a genius!
  20. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    A Jedi never attacks... he defends. Anakin attacked and killed. The fact he killed is important, because he let his anger get the better of him. And that's bad.
  21. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    In the SW movies, there are two way that "characters" speak to each other. Some speak in alien languages (Sebulba, Greedo) or they speak English (or translated) with an accent (Watto, Jar Jar.) It was no accident that the Tuskens cannot communicate with US just as they will not communicate with anyone else in the universe.

    The whole argument that I am drawing conclusions from only minutes worth of information is ridiculous. This isn't real. It was written to tell a story. Everything in movies (especially SW) is done to advance the story line. You people don't need to look for good in characters that were written as monsters.

    You say that just because we can't understand the Tuskens, doesn't make them evil? Well, what about Wookies? Wookies have a similar vocal pattern, are much more imposing, yet Chewie is fully capable and willing to behave appropriately, and gently when the situation calls for it.

  22. Savle_Sostas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 2
    "Everything in movies (especially SW) is done to advance the story line. You people don't need to look for good in characters that were written as monsters."

    Then why are you justifying the actions of Anakin?

    "You say that just because we can't understand the Tuskens, doesn't make them evil? Well, what about Wookies? Wookies have a similar vocal pattern, are much more imposing, yet Chewie is fully capable and willing to behave appropriately, and gently when the situation calls for it."

    You ahould read that back to yourself as you seem to be reinforcing the guy's point.
  23. Meatypants Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    But what has been presented to us in the movies is that they are absolutely nothing but savages.

    Savages with guns and hi tech equipment? Savages that hide their numbers? Savages that have tamed animals? Savages with the capacity to plan an assault on podracers? These creatures cognitive abilities, and all they're trying to do is survive.

    Next you're going to tell me that Tusken Raiders aren't luminous beings. The Force doesn't flow through them. They're just crude matter, ugly savages.
  24. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Lovely contradiction OB1 . . . . now I am extremely confused ?[face_plain]

    EDIT: Don't you agree comrade?
  25. Double_Sting Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    Let's make this an example on Earth.

    1. Is it wrong for some street thugs to kidnap your mother and then take her to their familes and torture her?
    Yes.

    2. Is it wrong for a pack of male wolves to kill your mother and then take her back to the tribe for eating?
    Yes (of course you can say no here - they need to feed right, but stick with yes)

    3. Should the children of the street thugs be killed for what their parents did?
    No.

    4. Should the children of the wolves be killed for what their parents did?
    Does it matter? They are wolves. Does anyone really care which ones you kill? No. Because they are looked upon as lower life forms. Most people wouldn't have any problem at all with you killing all the wolves.

    And there is the fundamental question regarding the Tusken slaughter. Are the tuskens suppossed to be viewed as "humans" (questions 1 and 3) or are they to be viewed as "animals" (questions 2 and 4).

    As you can see it makes a big difference as to how you use them. While killing the wolves is still bad, it is not considered nearly as bad as killing humans.

    From what we have seen in the films I am inclined to believe that the Tuskens are more like wolves than they are like people. Since this is the case I am more forgiving of what Anakin did.

    Yes I still see that this is the start of his turn to the dark side, but I can see how Padme can overlook this - they are just animals that he killed. And from Padme's point of view they are animals because everything she has heard and seen about them points to the fact that they are animals. If they were humans, I would have found it much harder to believe that Padme forgave him.

    However Anakin's big mistake is using his anger and his hate to guide his actions. That is where we see the beginning of his descent to the dark side - something that Padme does not understand because she is not a Jedi.


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