Bleeding Hearts call Anakin a mass murderer

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 0Bl-WAN, May 28, 2002.

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  1. Bail-AnBillies Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    If Anakin doesn't murder at least some ppl how's he ever gonna end up with the Dark Side, so might as well be the Tuskens! Thats just my opinion tho :)
  2. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    yeah, i've never seen the movies before. what's star wars?
    i just have this miraculous ability to site specific references from the top of my head from movies i've never seen.
    of course, i should expect personal attacks from people who use the term 'bleeding hearts' in serious conversation. (not as a joke)
    this is just a debate. i've obviously seen the movies, in fact there has been no time in my life when i was not exposed in some way to the star wars galaxy.
    try to think before you post messages attacking people for stating their opinions.
  3. Charlie_Martel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2001
    star 4
    Funny how you can't dis-prove my points and just go on to say how I "attack" you. Try to actually address what I said instead of whining.

    By the way, I never called anyone a "bleeding heart"...
  4. Meatypants Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    zeekveerko, I guess you've never seen the Star Wars movies. Every single time we see Tusken males they're either stealing something, or shooting at something, or killing someone.

    What about the Tusken guys chilling by the fire in AOTC?

    And when are they killing in ANH? They're hostile, but they're hardly murderers. For all they knew, he was invading their space. The only truly evil thing we've seen is a handful of Tusken's taking potshots at podracers. A handful of them.
  5. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    try reading what i wrote already.

    IMO, the shmi thing was actually out of character for them. yeah, they take pot-shots at racers, but they could have easily hit the drivers instead of the vehicles, and they probably had plans to pick up the pieces for whatever reason later on.

    in ep4, since you didn't read it before, instead of killing luke they knock him out. there is a scene where one's about to snipe him, and the other stops him. then they go and ambush him, but instead of killing him they just knock him out and try to steal parts from his speeder. explain how any of these actions portray them as savages.
  6. Double_Sting Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    I am not justifying his actions, I am saying they are less severe than you are all making them out to be. And this is key - because it makes it believable that Padme forgave him.

    She viewed it as killing animals. I don't believe she would have been so sympathetic if she had thought that he killed humans.

    And that's the point I'm getting to. Tuskens are considered "lesser" being likes wolves and primates. And thus killing them - while still wrong - is not as bad as if they had been considered "equal" beings.

    What have we seen from them so far in the movies and the novelizations - they shoot at pod racers in TPM, they kidnap, torture and kill Anakin's mother in AOTC, they kill a search party in AOTC, they attack Luke in ANH, Luke talks about how dangerous it is to go out at night in ANH because the Tuskens will attack.

    It seems like they have earned their reputation as "lesser" beings even if they are not.

    They have a religion, language, culture

    where do we learn this in the movies - no EU crap on this please. where is this shown in the movies?
  7. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    i think padme's the biggest 'bleeding heart' in the star wars galaxy. she believes in the rights of all people (and creatures) in the galaxy. therefore, the only reason she could forgive anakin for his actions would have nothing to do with her considering them lesser creatures, but because she loves him, and understands that he feels remorse for his actions, and acted out of revenge for his mother in the heat of passion.
  8. Winger Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    But they are incapable of participating in a mutually beneficial relationship with any other life form.

    Then what the hell do you call banthas? Tuskens form life long bonds with their mounts, so much so that when a Tusken's Bantha is killed, that Tusken wanders out aimlessly in the desert, to either die or find another beast. I'd call that quite a relationship, wouldn't you?
  9. foxbatkllr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Then what the hell do you call banthas? Tuskens form life long bonds with their mounts, so much so that when a Tusken's Bantha is killed, that Tusken wanders out aimlessly in the desert, to either die or find another beast. I'd call that quite a relationship, wouldn't you?

    Just a little word of advice: EU arguments tend not to go over too well on this forum.
  10. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    uh-oh, winger, you might get flamed for referencing the EU. good point, though.
  11. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    dictionary definition: Murder - to kill brutally or inhumanly.
  12. RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    I find this debate endlessly amusing, yet also sickening to a degree. Just for the record I'm more or less a moderate, but in some views I am extremely conservative, in others semi-liberal.

    The tuskens are CLEARLY not animals. The best analogy for the Tusken Raiders is the Native Americans. Proof they are not animals?

    The tame animals-Banthas and the "dogs" in the camp.
    They have fire. Hello, this is cited as one of the things that probably helped early man to change.
    They have a camp. Notice, that not only do they have a camp, but they've actually built homes, they're not using caves, but something analogous to the type of home a plains indian tribe would have, yet another reference to Native Americans.
    They have weapons, guns, gadaffi sticks. If I ever see a wolf loading a rifle I'll concede this point.
    They talk to each other. It is blatantly clear they have a language. Noone else may know it but it exists, you can see them talking.
    They wear clothes, yet another thing animals do not do.
    They reason, this can be seen if for no other reason that listening to Obi Wan describe their tactics in ANH. "Sand people always ride single file to hide their numbers." No animal is going to formulate a plan like that.

    Yes, they pillage and plunder. Yes, Cliegg calls them animals. But hello? Have you ever studied your history? Native Americans were considered by many to be animals. Hell, people got paid for bringing in their scalps. Their very bones were used almost like ivory for a time. Clearly Lucas potrays Tatooine as a sort of "frontier" world, and it is easy to see that Cliegg is pretty much like any other racist from that type of culture.

    Am I saying we should sic amnesty international on Anakin? (an organization I despise btw) No. What I am saying is that anyone that is able to reason and think can clearly tell that the Tuskens are sentient. Alien maybe, but sentient. Anakin crossed the line when he wiped out the women and children, and for a Jedi he crossed the line even when he attacked the men.

    Don't fool yourself. Part of the reason that scene is filmed like it is, with the shots of the "dogs", the women and children, the men by the campfire, etc, is so we clearly see that while they are different, alien, they are also a community of sentient beings. Lucas was essentially saying "Look, they aren't animals. Vicious, bloodthirsty, but sentient!" He wanted us to recoil in horror at what Anakin does.

    For the life of me I don't understand how so many of you missed this.
  13. Jar Jar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    To be totally honest Riggs I think the only way to have driven the point home for some of these folks would have been to show the massacre in it's entirety.

    Audiences could have watched as Anakin beheaded and mutilated one Tusken after another. First the men as they tried to protect their camp, and then looked on as he moved to those who are simply frozen in shock. They could have then seen those who tried to run, and how he used the force to create a barrier to trap them in the maelstrom and use it yet again to move with incredible speed and slaughter both the women and children until ther was nothing left to kill.

    Maybe then people would understand it. But then again, probably not. [face_plain]
  14. JEF-ST1 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    SLAUGHTER good - Rebel hippies bad -
    They could of just killed shim but No they tied her up and keeped her alive for some odd reason?
    Anikin should just kill and kill some more he is the future dark lord of the sith right?He just turned to the light side again only cus he was getting old and gonna die anyways. all old people turn good near the end.He had a lust for power . F the mideast Only the strong survive. V
  15. Double_Sting Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    The tame animals-Banthas and the "dogs" in the camp.
    They have fire. Hello, this is cited as one of the things that probably helped early man to change.
    They have a camp. Notice, that not only do they have a camp, but they've actually built homes, they're not using caves, but something analogous to the type of home a plains indian tribe would have, yet another reference to Native Americans.
    They have weapons, guns, gadaffi sticks. If I ever see a wolf loading a rifle I'll concede this point.
    They talk to each other. It is blatantly clear they have a language. Noone else may know it but it exists, you can see them talking.
    They wear clothes, yet another thing animals do not do.
    They reason, this can be seen if for no other reason that listening to Obi Wan describe their tactics in ANH. "Sand people always ride single file to hide their numbers." No animal is going to formulate a plan like that.


    Hello, we are talking about the Star Wars galaxy here. Not the real world.

    If you want to compare with native americans then go back to the time when there used to be conflict between native americans and the settlers.

    I am sure that most of you will concede the point that at that time the settlers view of the native americans was pretty much the same as the Lars' view of the Tuskens - ie that they are savage animals.

    Now still in that time frame - let's consider a settler slaughtering a tribe of native americans for murdering their mother. Sadly enough, more than half the population wouldn't give a damn because native americans were viewed as animals in the time.

    Same thing applies here. Tuskens are not viewed as humans. And so any crime comitted against them, unfarily or fairly, is not considered as serious as it should be.

    Which is why Padme is able to forgive Anakin so quickly.
  16. Jar Jar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    Well there might be yet another reason for Padme to forgive Anakin's mistake, saying in a cut scene "You are only human".

    "If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed. I move for a vote of no confidence.. In Chancellor Vallorum's leadership."

    Do you think she regrets this decision, made in haste in order to get immediate action against her and her people's plight some 10 years previous? While nothing really seems to state this outright, I think to a certain extent she believes she made a rash decision especially seeing as the person she ousted was one of their most loyal supporters. We all know it was wrong as fans of this series, just as most of us know that Anakin too made a mistake.

    I suppose that makes the scales of tragedy even between the two. ;)
  17. Jedi_Master_Carr Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    The Tuskens are very similar to other nomadic tribes from the Native American, Vikings, and the Huns. Somebody said they didn't know of any Indian tribes which tortured and killed people well there were some, The Aztecs (they ripped people's hearts out) the Crows and Hurons (watch Last of the Mohicans) then there are the Vikings and Huns neither one you wanted to mess with. The Huns slaughter many villages and were know to take back people as slaves. My point is the Tusken Raiders are sentient beings but just weren't civilized. Now you could argue that who cares about there barbarism but still I personally feel what Anakin did was wrong because he was not any better than the Tusken Raiders.
  18. RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    Double_Sting,

    if you read my post you will see that I did say that Clieg and the others probably viewed the Tuskens as animals much as early settlers did Indians. The Point though is that they were not animals, and for lack of better explanation the Force knows this, and the Force is the ultimate judge.

    What really gets me about this whole thread is there are people here rationalizing Anakin's actions, when clearly we as the audience are supposed to know, to be horrified, to see that he is starting to become evil. IT really makes me wonder about people.
  19. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    "F the mideast Only the strong survive." - JEF-ST1

    Truly moronic and frightening comments.

    I think that GL did a very good job of showing Anakin slipping to the darkside. He is unable to control his fear and anger, which lead to the darkside. As far as we know, only Anakin and Padme know what he did. This point leads me to some confusion. How can a Senator who champions for people's freemdom and rights, just "accept" what Anakin did.

    My girlfriend was appalled at the scene and wondering what was wrong with Padme for comforting Anakin. She would have ran the other way from him. She also pointed out that his feelings for Padme are more along the lines of a stalker than a lover. He's obsessed. But that's off topic ;)

    Plain and simple, Anakin murdered them and for some unexplained reason, Padme accepted it.

    EDIT: Nice overused Yoda talk to deny that Anakin is not a mass murderer. How many does it take in your book to be considered that? In our society, I think your reference of 12 murdered would be considered "mass." Just ask the victims of Dahmer, Gasey, etc.

    As for hitler, he was beyond mass murder, it was genocide.
  20. BellyButton Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 2
    A dozen Tuskens does not a mass murderer make. A planet however... though the old Moff Tarkin actually orders that though doesn't he?

    If Jedi just fight with sabres, if they eschew WMD, can they ever be mass murderers? I guess the answer is that Anakin becomes Hitler (who didn't "fight" in WW2) not Eichmann or Mengele
  21. Old_Metal_Monster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Just because I would probably kill all those Tuskens (men, women, children) for torturing my Mum (aussie here), doesn't make it right.

    HE appears to show sorrow for what he did.

    That tells us that HE knows what he did was wrong.

    That HE believes that the Tuskens are more than just animals.

    HE believes he is a mass murderer.

    And, in the end, that is all that really matters.
  22. Old_Metal_Monster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    BTW: I posted *blind*. Sorry if I stepped on anybody's toes. :)
  23. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 6
    Riggs, Aggie and Binary:
    you're right.

    OBI-WAN:
    you're George Bush.


  24. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I tell you what, the moment I learned Lucas was making the prequels, I couldn't wait to see Anakin/Vader kill the Jedi in cold blood. Who can honestly say they don't want to see Vader kill and choke innocent people in Episode III?
  25. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    It does me some good to see that we are polarized on this issue. It's nice to know that those with my like-mind still fight back against the dangerous trend toward hiding from that which is threatening.

    Pacifism, as an ideal, is a key to a utopian society. But, unfortunately, in an imperfect world, those who practice pacifism are merely making themselves a target for predators. Being a liberal himself, Lucas is subtly trying to convince people otherwise, but he can't even do it in the universe he created himself. Padme becomes a victim of her ideals, just as the Rebublic does. After the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo ended, Padme championed leaniency for Nute Gunray. What was her reward for that? Repeated assassination attempts on her, the Trade Federation army being alive to slaughter hundreds of Jedi, Nute Gunray playing a pivotal role in the secession of separatists.

    Idealism is great in safety, but those who speak pacifistic ideals the loudest do it from the safety being provided them by those who will defend their rights. A pacifist in an unruly world doesn't live long enough to speak.

    Many of my opponents here have cliched that "history repeats itsef." They have used that as a means to **disagree** with my point. That baffles me. I guess you haven't learned not to stop sticking your fingers in the light sockets either.

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