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Bleeding Hearts call Anakin a mass murderer

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 0Bl-WAN, May 28, 2002.

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    AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 18, 2001
    OB| - more broad generalizations on your part. You have no idea who I am or what my beliefs are. You've tried to pidgeon hole all of us into some "pacifistic" and "liberal commie" mold. You couldn't be farther from the truth on me. I'm so far right on some issues, it'd make your head spin.

    As for pacifists not fighting, being obliterated from earth, etc., I think you have overstepped your bounds. I don't believe in war and violence, but in times of defense, I would give my life for the causes I believe in. I haven't called you a "war mongering maniac," but you felt it necessary to label me. That was I disagree with in your arguements about Tuskens, etc. I feel you are looking at them in a one-dimension way, and only see them as blood thirsty killers. For that generalization, you rationalize that it is ok to kill them all, women and children included.

    That is what I disagree with. GL made Anakin murder them for the story. To show that he is capable of being a hideous monster.


    FYI - "I guess you haven't learned not to stop sticking your fingers in the light sockets either. - I guess you haven't learned not to use double negatives. :p
  2. Charlie_Martel

    Charlie_Martel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2001
    "What about the Tusken guys chilling by the fire in AOTC?"

    They're taking a break from their hostile actions. Something's 'gotta rest :D

    "And when are they killing in ANH? They're hostile, but they're hardly murderers. For all they knew, he was invading their space."

    They were killing in AotC. I didn't say they were killing in ANH. They did knock out Skywalker and take his stuff. It also appeared as if they were going to take him to their camp like they did with Shmi. We all know what happened to her.

    "The only truly evil thing we've seen is a handful of Tusken's taking potshots at podracers. A handful of them."

    Beating Shmi to death was not evil. Right. Beating up a guy looking for a droid and stealing his stuff is just fine. Great. I hope you never become a judge :D

    "try reading what i wrote already."

    I did. All you were doing was whining about "attacks" I never did.

    "in ep4, since you didn't read it before, instead of killing luke they knock him out. there is a scene where one's about to snipe him, and the other stops him. then they go and ambush him, but instead of killing him they just knock him out and try to steal parts from his speeder. explain how any of these actions portray them as savages."

    Ummm. If they were just going to leave him, why did they go through the trouble of dragging him with them? So they can take him home!? They were probably taking Luke to their camp. And beating someone up, dragging them along with you, and then taking stuff from their property is not exactly the work of a saint!

    "Then what the hell do you call banthas? Tuskens form life long bonds with their mounts, so much so that when a Tusken's Bantha is killed, that Tusken wanders out aimlessly in the desert, to either die or find another beast. I'd call that quite a relationship, wouldn't you?"

    Didn't I say humanoids? That's certainly what I meant. They attack whatever humanoid they see like Jawas, pod-racers, humans, etc. And how the hell do you know they have a life-long bond with banthas?

    "dictionary definition: Murder - to kill brutally or inhumanly."

    That's what Anakin and Tuskens did.

    "Have you ever studied your history? Native Americans were considered by many to be animals."

    That argument is weak. Many Native Americans were peaceful and established trade with white settlers. We don't see Tuskens doing that, do we? Tuskens are better compared to human parasites. They do nothing but harm to human(oid)s.
  3. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 23, 2000
    "How can a senator who champions for people's freedom and rights, just "accept" what Anakin did?"

    After hearing every nasty word that has described the Tuskens, having memories of them shooting at Anakin and the other podracers in TPM, and the fact that they killed his mom has made Padme sympathise with Anakin even more and not be apphauled by what he did to them or force herself to distance away from him.

    Also, Anakin was in alot of pain and Padme can't just leave him alone knowing that will cause him more pain and will hurt anyone else if he's not going to control himself which is why Padme is staying with him so she can "fix" him.
  4. BellyButton

    BellyButton Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 28, 2002
    I think you are all missing the other reference here - the My Lai massacre. The rage of scared young men against the strange and the unfamiliar.

    Doubt it? Well, SW is chock full o' Vietnam references and GL was, of course, slated to direct Apocalypse Now at one time - it makes all the arm-cutting off seem interesting too, doesn't it (a pile of little arms...)

  5. SantoroSM

    SantoroSM Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 29, 2000
    From the official site:

    Fearsome desert savages inhabiting the rocky Jundland Wastes, Tusken Raiders are the foremost reason Tatooine colonists do not wander far from their isolated communities. Extremely territorial and xenophobic, Tusken Raiders will attack with very little provocation. They show no allegiance to even their native world-mates, as these nomads have attacked Jawa scouting parties on occasion. They have even gathered numbers large enough to attack the outskirts of smaller towns like Anchorhead.

    Covered from head-to-foot in tattered rags and robes, Tusken Raiders -- or Sand People as they are also known -- brandish a deadly bladed club known as a gaderffii. They also carry projectile rifles with which to shoot at passing vehicles.

    For transportation, Sand People have domesticated the hardy bantha -- a longhaired spiral-horned quadruped also found on Tatooine. These nomads purposely travel in single file, to conceal their numbers.

    This implies to me, not that they are animals, but that they are just a group of aliens who are culturally agressive and xenophobic. So, yes. Nazi Germany IS a reasonable comparison. It was a hostile, xenophobic society. The only difference is that they were in power in a government, and the Tuskens are nomadic, tribal people. There are plenty of aggressive and even cannibalistic South American and African tribes. That doesn't mean that they aren't people. It means that they are hostile and/or xenophobic. Tusken's are people. They are just violent people. They are called "Sand People" after all. Cliegg was saying that they "walk like people, but they are animals" because his bad experiences made him angry with them. He probably still realizes they are people, he is just enraged by them, so he calls them animals. Come on, people. Don't suck the life out of one of Star Wars most powerful scenes. Anakin IS a murderer. It starts in AotC and he doesn't stop until RotJ.
  6. Savle_Sostas

    Savle_Sostas Jedi Youngling star 2

    Oct 11, 2001
    Wow! Another "Bleeding Heart" eh SantoroSM? When this thread started our numbers looked thin on the ground. Sorry to call you a "Bleeding Heart", i'm just using the label OB1 gave all us who happen to think that mass slaughter is wrong and that races with different cultures still qualify as people, however uncivil their behaviour seems to others.
  7. Oo-ta_Goo-ta_Solo

    Oo-ta_Goo-ta_Solo Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 6, 2001
    Anakin (Darth Vader) *is* a mass murderer. I don't understand why people are trying to disprove and rationalize a fundamental plot point of the entire saga.

    Sure, Anakin was a nice kid in TPM, but he winds up being the most feared man in the galaxy--not because of the scary suit, but because he is a mass murderer.

    We obviously know what triggered the outburst in AOTC. Some feel his response was justified, some don't. I'm not going to debate that point because regardless of what the Sandpeople did to provoke him, the fact remains that Anakin murdered them all--men, women, and children. We know that. Why try to defend something that can't be defended. It's part of the story. Anakin (Darth Vader) does very bad things.

    It's just a story, you know.
  8. tkip

    tkip Jedi Youngling star 3

    Jul 19, 1999
    While we may feel pity for Anakin, for his pain and suffering, nothing justifies the murder of an ENTIRE group of people. If Hilter had used this for his defense of wiping out millions of people, would we even be arguing this?

    The end result is that an entire village is dead for the actions of a few and nothing can or should undermine just how severe an injustice this was.

    Yes, Anakin is a mass murderer. Accept it!
  9. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    "Locked this thread will be I suspect." Why? Because ObiWan insists in his posts in essentially attacking those who do not agree with his viewpoints.

    I notice he stays far from my post where I had a listing of the proof that Tuskens are not animals at all but simply a different, albeit violent culture.

    Anakin is without a doubt a mass murderer in that scene. Padme probably rationalizes what he did, having had no contacts with Tuskens really. This is the most powerful scene in AOTC and shows his first major step towards the Dark Side, and to try to rationalize it undermines the entire scene. I'd suggest, those of you who are attempting to rationalize his actions go watch a movie like Death Wish, it's more up your alley.
  10. Jar Jar

    Jar Jar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 13, 1998
    I don't think the argument at this point is whether or not Anakin is a mass muderer, because he did in fact kill intelligent beings, but if his actions are justified because he simply killed a bunch of murderers himself. To me the answer is no, because I believe the women and the children are innocents in all this, and by killing them he simply wanted vengance.

    Revenge is not a Jedi concept but a human one, and this is why George Lucas inevitably decided to call his sixth episode Return of the Jedi and not Revenge of the Jedi as once planned. Anakin's course of action was very human and perhaps he could be justified if he was not a Jedi in training. The problem is that he is not just a human being trying to make his way in the universe but a Jedi who must maintain discipline or he will fall into darkness. He has a higher standard to live up to, just as our religious and community leaders do today.

    His actions against the Tuskens are unacceptable.
  11. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    Jar Jar,

    actually Obi-wan very much wishes to say they are animals, thus rationalizing his case that Anakin is in fact not a mass murderer. He went way over the line when he killed the women and children, and this was very intentional on Lucas' part, he wishes noone to be able to draw a conclusion other than Anakin wigged out and murdered. How some people miss that and rationalize it escapes me and truly makes me wonder about the society we live in.
  12. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    oh, and Obi-Wan, to punch a hole in your rhetoric, I do not in fact worry about the recreation time of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. In fact, it is hard for me to restrain myself for crying out that we should execute them all. The fact that I do is the difference between myself and Anakin. And by your rhetoric, I suspect, myself and you.
  13. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Feb 26, 2001
    Agreed Riggs.
    If someone wants to say they would have done the same or they can understand his doing that... fine, so can I.

    But that doesn't make them right or morally justifiable.

  14. Jawa70

    Jawa70 Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 18, 2002
    Freud would love you lot.
  15. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002

    I can understand it in the context, but I was still sort of stunned, I mean it was a mass murder. I don't know what I'd do in his situation, I'd like to think I'd only lash out at the ones between me and escape, or at worst kill all the men, but who knows, how it'd feel to be him right then. Still doesn't change the fact that it was a mass murder AND that he acted out of anger. Basically double jeopardy from the Dark Side standpoint.
  16. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    You know, something about this post has been nagging at the back of my mind and I finally found it. Obi-Wan says that Anakin is not a mass murderer, he rationalizes Anakin's actions and says those who don't accuse him are Bleeding heart commie liberals. Hmmmm....seems to me, that the stereotypical liberal would in fact be rationalizing Anakin's actions, trying to find an excuse for him so he's not bad, he's just misunderstood. Methinks Obi-Wan is a liberal in conservative clothing.
  17. JEF-ST1

    JEF-ST1 Jedi Youngling

    May 24, 2002
    2 aggie you sound like a hippie for a trooper/ I hope you enjoy the gunship battle in AOTC knowing there based on the ac130 gunships that were made for village genocide.
    I posted the f M east only to drag you bleeding hearts out. peace would be great but it will never work.
    "the strog survive" might sound moronic but its carved in stone in the pentagons main lobby. (v)
  18. 0bi-Wan

    0bi-Wan Jedi Master star 2

    Nov 13, 2001
    Why do I have the feeling I have a clone...

  19. zeekveerko

    zeekveerko Jedi Knight star 5

    Apr 30, 2002
    1) i do believe in darwinism. the strong survive. i do not enjoy bringing harm to others, but if my life or those i love are in jeopardy, damn straight i'm going to do something about it.
    2) i will continue to advise all racists to find the kkk website and join them, instead of talking on star wars boards, since most of us don't want to hear that crap. i am part iranian, and take personal offense to the above statement. i say f you (whoever said it, i didn't bother to remember your name) and everyone of like mind.
    3) if you read my above definition of murder, taken from, and combine it with the word mass, meaning many, you will find that by very definition of the two words, anakin is a mass murderer, no matter the circumstances.
    4) if your heart doesn't bleed, or pump blood, then you must be dead.

    thus making this entire post a pointless attack on people who think killing is a bad thing.
  20. JEF-ST1

    JEF-ST1 Jedi Youngling

    May 24, 2002
    The names JEF-ST1 jack.
  21. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    Obi-Wan, when I wrote about Obi-Wan, I was referring to OBI-WAN not evil clone....scary, we could all be cloned anytime now, how do I know you're you, and not him, or I'm me....::looks around all paranoid now::

    zeekveerko, you've hit the nail on the head, but watch out, OBI-WAN will be trying to make a case your whole family should be wiped out soon.
  22. Tim-o-guy

    Tim-o-guy Jedi Youngling

    Jul 9, 1999
    1) Anyone who thinks Anakin was AT ALL right for killing the Tuskens is not only missing the point of that scene, but is probably also misunderstanding HUGE themes throughout the saga. In my opinion.

    2) If you think that the only bad thing Anakin did was act purely on emotion, then you must believe that it would have been equally bad for him to jump out of the ship after Padme. And if you do....well, then you have an interesting perspective.

    3) Next time you try to judge Lucas' intentions, you might want to remember that he himself is pretty much a "bleeding-heart liberal".

    Oh and, anyone who uses the term "bleeding-heart liberal commie" and means it, I'm going to have a hard time taking seriously. Sorry.
  23. Obi-Wan Harclerode

    Obi-Wan Harclerode Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 22, 2000
    Anakin's only problem is he didn't get them all. He stopped before the job was finished.
    (well maybe that is going a little far)
    However, Remember...
    The Tusken are scum, plain and simple. Killing them all would be doing Tatooine a favor.

    The only question I have is why doesn't he go back after he turns to Vader and complete the job? He hates them enough.
  24. Ewan-Kenobi

    Ewan-Kenobi Jedi Knight star 6

    Oct 21, 2000
    Just because some have the opinion that the Tuskens are souless monsters doesn't mean they really are.

    They're not wolves.

    Let's say if some of the more violent Indian tribes kidnapped your mother and beat her to death. Does that mean they're souless monsters? No, violent, savage, and acting inhuman, maybe, but they're still human.

    If they did that to your mother, would you be justified killing every single man in the villiage? No. Would you be justified killing the unarmed women and children? Hell no.

    You think the Tuskens have not been provoked at all into kidnapping and killing the Tatooine settlers?
    It doesn't justify it of course, but the settlers as a whole are not innocent.
  25. Obi-Wan Harclerode

    Obi-Wan Harclerode Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 22, 2000
    I think people need to watch the John Wayne movie called the "Searchers" which GL borrowed from a little for this portion. Which interestingly enough involved Indians.

    As for the question, yes I would kill them all after they killed my mother, assuming I could. If I don't they will kill someone else's innocent mother later. End of story.
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