Bleeding Hearts call Anakin a mass murderer

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by 0Bl-WAN, May 28, 2002.

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  1. Maulfly Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 7
    As a normal person, Anakin had a relatively normal reaction to his mother's torture and death...though I don't condone him killing children, mothers, and probably their pet "dogs".

    As a Jedi, on the other hand, his reaction was extreme and totally wrong. Jedi use their skills for knowledge and defence, NEVER for attack...at least that's the ideal. Animal or not, wasn't it Qui Gon who said something about ALL beings having a place in the universe, no matter how small. For a Jedi to do what Anakin did, to "animals" or "people", is something that should cause anyone great pause...unless you're on the Darkside.

    (Of course, Anakin should never have been in such a situation in the first place. He WAS too old to start his training afterall. He's probably the only Jedi to know and have a connection with his parent, something that only complicates his training...but that's another subject for another thread.)

    Anyway, though what we've seen of the Tusken males may not give you the warm and fuzzies for the species, there is a reason why Lucas introduced the women and children in this movie...who ran away when they saw Anakin while the males attempted to defend them from the intruder. (And also, keep in mind that there are probably still cultures/tribes of humans to this day throughout the real world who's lives echo that of the tuskens, rare though they may be.)

    And if you consider the Tuskens just animals that happen to have technology, language, culture, and animal domestication which should have been slaughtered, I urge you to once again remember that Anakin is supposed to be a Jedi and Jedi do not just kill entire groups of animals--Sith do that. Also, it's been shown that those who kill and torture animals often move on to murdering people...
  2. Darth_me_ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    I think there is a few things people are missing here.

    This is a device that GL is using to show us the start of the fall of Anakin. For this to be true the tuskens would have to have a sort of value wouldnt they? I mean if Ani killed a bunch of gophers one wouldnt care, or a pack or rabid wolves, people might give you a medal for that. But these arent rabid wolves or gophers, they are people. YES they are people, even Ani him self knows this to be true. He says it himself "women and children" too when discribing the attack. Not sows, or doe's or caves and pups, they are discribed as women and children.

    Tuskens might seem to some a brutal race. But they are a race, bred to live in the harshest climate a desert planet. Nowhere in movie cannon have they killed anything other then defence or survival...They are discribed as Raiders not killers. They steal to sell things for food, or for the betterment of the tribe. Thats why the attacked Luke to get what he had on his speeder and perhaps the droids if they were following R2's trail. Our indian culture did similar things, and by the white men that came here they were savages too.

    They live together, seem to have their own culture, and are smart enough to have their own tactics. Their children play games, they wear clothing and fashion there own equiptment, they train their own beasts of burden and care for them, they have pets. Name one animal that does all this things? I can only name one and that is man. Not very savage to me.

    They have shown mercy, letting luke live. The only time they killed was in defence of the tribe killing the "hunting party" that came after them. They did not kill Shmi outright, why they were holding her, we do not know why from the movies, but to keep someone alive for over a month one would have to think some sort of care was given. Id like to see a dog tend to someones wounds and feed them. Perhaps answers to this question lies in the cannon novels of the movies, or the last film?

    He killed people, to the last, left no one standing. There is tremendous evil in that.
  3. Charlie_Martel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2001
    star 4
    "Let's say if some of the more violent Indian tribes kidnapped your mother and beat her to death. Does that mean they're souless monsters? No, violent, savage, and acting inhuman, maybe, but they're still human."

    There is no comparrison. This is fantasy. Tuskens are not Indians. Tuskens are not even human. In the movies they are portrayed as violent savages, the men at least. The women and children are the innocent ones. The men are just parasities. Stop comparing them to Indians!

    "They have shown mercy, letting luke live."

    And how do you know they were planning to let him live? Why did they even bother dragging him with them? Were they just helping escort Luke back to his speeder, from which they just start taking things?

    "The only time they killed was in defence of the tribe killing the "hunting party" that came after them. They did not kill Shmi outright, why they were holding her, we do not know why from the movies, but to keep someone alive for over a month one would have to think some sort of care was given."

    They abducted her to give her care? Riiiight. Guess what, Shmi still died after what they did to her! They tortured her. And what happened to that podracer when they shot up his pod and he went flying? If he didn't die then that must have seriously injured him. "I don't care what universe you're from, that's 'gotta hurt!" :D

    "He killed people, to the last, left no one standing. There is tremendous evil in that."

    Absolutely... the women and children were innocent :)
  4. Charlie_Martel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2001
    star 4
    I'm done with this... this is a waste of time :D
  5. Grieve Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 1
    So the women and children are all innocent, but all of the men are guilty? Why? What makes you think that every male tusken raider was involved in the attacks?

    Only the Tuskens that carried out the attack are guilty. I don't see how killing an male who did nothing is justified and killing a female or child isn't.
  6. shogun_1138 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 2
    If any of you want to read up on Tusken Raiders and their culture, pick up a copy of "The Wildlife of Star Wars". It's a dandy little book about all the creatures in the movies (and some from the books). In the section on banthas, there're a couple pages on their relationship with the Tuskens, which is equally touching and enthralling. BTW, it shouldn't be considered EU.
  7. Maulfly Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 7
    Grieve: I don't know if you're responding to my post or not, but here goes.

    I never said that all of the males were guilty and deserved to die, that was not my intention. I just said that what we've seen of them (which is almost all we've seen of the Tuskens at all) may not give you warm feelings for them as a group. Part of my point above is that Lucas obviously introduced the concept of Tuskens having families much like any humans that live in such an environment for a reason. It helps bring home the point of just how out of control and dangerous Anakin has become. A key point in his turning to the Darkside.

    As a Jedi, Anakin had absolutely NO business killing/slaughtering anyone or anything. As a Jedi it would be his duty to get out of there in a non-violent manner. If that wasn't possible, to inflict as little damage as possible in the act of defending himself. Think of what Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon, Mace, or a score of other Jedi (or their Padawans) would have done in his place. Revenge had NO place with those trained to be Jedi.

    I understand how one may feel that Anakin did the correct thing after the torture and death of his mother. But Anakin is NOT just some average Joe, he's a Jedi Padawan. This whole scene (no matter if Tuskens are "people" or "animals"; no matter if all but one are inocent or if the men, women, children, 'dogs', and womp rats all took turns beating Shmi) is only to clearly illustrate Anakin's fall to the Darkside and how he might be too far gone to save at this point.
  8. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    aggie you sound like a hippie for a trooper - JEF-ST1

    [face_plain]

  9. Ogun Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    I think people are going to have to agree to disagree but some of the stuff I've read on here is scary.

    Forgiving him for doing it I can understand. Wanting to do it yourself if you were unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation, I understand but I really don't understand how anyone can think his actions were right.

    Riggs, Aggie and Binary and any other bleeding heart commie/liberals, you've restored my faith in humanity
  10. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Many thanks Ogun . . . may want to edit your post so we can keep this thread unlocked ;)

    FYI - there is still room to be in our club (check out the sig) :p
  11. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    If Anakin is a mass murderer for killing Tuskens, I'm a mass murderer for blowing up several anthills each 4th of July.

    Someone commit me.
  12. RiggsWolfe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    Pooja,

    you need to rewatch the movie and pay attention. Ants don't talk, wear clothes, use weapons, both melee and projectile, domesticate animals, or build huts.

    To the guy who said thank you to the bleeding heart liberal/commies. I'm a moderate. I understand what Anakin did, but I oppose trying to rationalize it cause they were "animals" as George Lucas went out of his way to show they were not. OBI-WAN still hasn't explained to me how his arguments aren't really more liberal than mine as he's trying to find a way to make sure Anakin doesn't take responsibility for his mass murders.
  13. trilete Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 1999
    (from the official site)

    Fearsome desert savages inhabiting the rocky Jundland Wastes, Tusken Raiders are the foremost reason Tatooine colonists do not wander far from their isolated communities. Extremely territorial and xenophobic, Tusken Raiders will attack with very little provocation. They show no allegiance to even their native world-mates, as these nomads have attacked Jawa scouting parties on occasion. They have even gathered numbers large enough to attack the outskirts of smaller towns like Anchorhead.

    That's interesting SantoroSM. I think the key is that the Tusken Raiders are clearly the natives and everyone else the colonists. So what's the big deal -- of course they're defending their land. Those who call the Tusken Raiders sub-human or animal ARE no better than those who call gypsies sub-human or native Americans sub-human. If you want to make an argument for genocide of a 'less civilized' race, go ahead -- but clearly the sand people are human, and Anakin's murder of them was intended to mark his first major turn to the dark side (or George Lucas condones genocide).
  14. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    First off, some people in this thread are acting as if I have personally directed comments toward them, that is innaccurate. I made my statements and directed them outward, only to be claimed by those for whom they applied. I rarely even pay attention to the name on the post unless I find it exceptionally clever.

    Secondly, once again, since it keeps getting lost, I have conceded that Anakin did something bad. However, as the title of the thread indicates, I do not call what Anakin did "murder." Anakin defended the civil inhabitants of Tattoine from an elusive and persistant threat. Such a threat can only be eliminated by search and destroy, otherwise it hides until it's victims are defenseless. You don't defend Osama Bin Laden by saying, "yeh, but what has he done lately?" We have learned that such a threat as this will return, it's only a matter of time. All of Tattoine knows this of the Tuskens.

    While the female Tuskens and the "children" are not directly responsible for the murder, they are indirectly responsible. The "innocents" allow it to happen, enable the males and the children grow up to become savages just the same. The children Anakin killed were contemporaries of the Tuskens who tried to kill Luke. Anakin just made a pre-emtive strike.

    Too many of you are becoming personally effected by this. I don't agree with your politics but this topic is not intended as a personal affront. It should never have been construed as such. It just strikes me that so many are quick to grant forgiveness to those who have wronged others. I doubt many of the September 11th families are weeping over the plight of the terrorists in Getmo. Only those with the luxury of separation from tragedy seem to be so generous with "understanding" and "compassion" for the opposition.
  15. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Read my sig . . . Do you think I have separation from tragedy and agony?

    One cannot condemn all for the actions of a few. The guilty Tuskens reaped what they sowed. The innocent were murdered.
  16. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I wondered when this would really get going.

    What Anakin did was wrong, there can be no doubt of that. Those Tuskens were brutally and senselessly murdered by him.

    But what it conveys at least to me, is that anyone who witnesses something horrible or bad whether it be seeing a lover in bed with another person or your mother/wife/children dying in front of your eyes because of someone else's evil attack, the person who witnessed that will feel uncontrollable rage or anger and will lash out and make those who have hurt them suffer.

    Now Anakin witnessed his mother die in front of his very eyes and it is plain to see that the Tuskens had been torturing her and bringing her closer to death. Anakin as we know is someone who has uncontrollable emotions and he lashes out. He committs an evil act, one which he has to live with for the rest of his life. But the key is he felt his rage and he gave into his rage.

    Now who is to say that anyone of us would not have given into our rage, as Anakin did, and do exactly what he did?
    A gut instinct is to say "no i wouldnt never give into my rage" but is that true? Placed in his situation and knowing the tension etc of the situation I believe you would have done what Anakin had done. I would have done it, I dont think I could contain my rage if I saw my mother had been killed by a bunch of lethal nomads.

    But it doesn't make it right. Anakin did a bad thing. But he is no means alone. We all do bad things in our life time, no one can truely be like Obi-Wan or Yoda. Anakin is every person in that audience, and thats a frightening realisation. To know that you could do what the hero did is not an easy thing to swallow. It makes you think, Lucas has then done his job.

    The object is not to say that Anakin is a bad person or that he did the right thing,but to realise that in Anakin we see ourselves and our own emotions displayed in this hero archetype.

    I also think the world we live in is so judgemental, too focused on whats right and whats wrong, who is good or bad. Deflecting the real issues about ourselves, and understanding ourselves better. Lucas is showing it clearly in Anakin and even more clearly in the death of Shmi, the Tusken slaughter and Anakins confession.
    Thats what we should be looking at.
  17. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    "Pooja,

    you need to rewatch the movie and pay attention. Ants don't talk, wear clothes, use weapons, both melee and projectile, domesticate animals, or build huts."

    You're kidding.
  18. JEF-ST1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    is this the most political thread?
    I just want vader to be evil. not some lost soul .in the OT hes evil plain and simple.
    Murder is wrong- Killing murderes good.
    if hes just some guy whos had a couple bad days, then his son tells him to smarten up itll make the saga suck.he needs to slaughter more in epIII to stress hes a bad mofo and not in the good way like Mace.
    to those offended by my other post. F is better than saying Nuke em or somthing like that .Im sure theres some good souls in the M-E .I just seem to run into the ones that like to shoot at me .
    Ill just say F endor.
    I guess theres always going to be people who put flowers in guns and people to pull the triggers.BANG
  19. RiggsWolfe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    OBI-WAN,

    your thread title, as well as your first post was intended to be a challenge. It was a borderline troll. And I still maintain that your actual argument is really more liberal than anything else.

    "Your honor, he's not a bad guy. He just was upset, his mother had died. I mean, they're practically animals anyway. So what if he even killed children, he said he was sorry."

    Jef,

    you've missed the entire point of the whole Star Wars saga. I feel sorry for you.
  20. Jar Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    Well, I'm not one for putting flowers in gun barrels, nor am I a peace-loving hippie (not that world peace is bad thing. What, would you rather be at war?), but I do know there is a time when violence is the only answer and when it is not.

    In Anakin's case it was not.

    It's simple black and white, good and evil. Anakin could have walked away after his mother died (just to vent on some rocks if for no other reason). Anakin could have killed the guilty tuskens.. GULP! Anakin could have even tried to heal relations between the Tuskens and the people of Tatooine to create a lasting peace so that nothing like this happened again. Any of these options were possible, any combination of these options were possible, and all these actions would have kept him in balance with the force.

    Anakin did none of the above. He acted on impulse and did what immediately sprang to mind. I've heard it said that Anakin's problem is his emotions are out of control, that is not the problem. The problem is that he lacks both discipline and paitience and in my travels in life I can say he reflects many MANY people of my generation. To get back to the film, this is more than likely something that Palpatine has reinforced on many occasions so that only worsens the problem.

    Also, as I have already said, Anakin has a higher standard to live up to the Joe Schmo farmer and he does not.

    Also Jef, I hope we do not see a mass slaughter on Anakin's part in Episode 3 to mark his fall. For one, that's predictable, for two it'll likely be rated PG-13 at most, for three that cheapens the film and what has been a long build up and for four that kind of scene would have no impact for me at all..

    Scenes like the Tusken massacre do. Scenes like these strike me multiple levels than just my want for sensless action, and they make me think.

    Why else would I still be posting here? :)

  21. 0bi-Wan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 2
    The fact that some people are comparing real life tragedies to Anakin's suffering is pathetic.

    --O.W.
  22. Obi-Wan Harclerode Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2000
    star 3
    Keep in mind those three Tuskens by the door did draw down on Anakin with their Gaffi sticks when he steps out.

    So technically those three were in self-defence.

    I feel what we have here our two different world views, both equally valid. By the Tuskens own rules, they prey on the weak.
    Might makes right, this is part of their code.

    By their own code if Anakin is able to, he hase the right to kill them all. He is after all proven stronger.

    I also think comparing them to any but the most violent American Indians is wrong. Most Indians did not senselessy kill, the Tuskens do.

    But this is all part of what GL has said many times, the prequels deal with shades of grey, not black and white. The actions Anakin takes in this movie are borderline. THey are neither completely wrong nor completely right, at this point. As GL has stated the lines have blurred.
  23. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    RiggsWolfe, don't feel sorry for me daddio. Feel sorry for the Tuskens. After all, they are the victims here right? This thread is not a troll. It is polarizing, and intentionally so, but I am actually enjoying the debate so it served me well. It was certainly Lucas' intention that this topic be one of debate.

    Aggie-Wan, I did see your tag prior to my 911 comment. ...and I offer my sincere empathy. My point stands though.

    My detractors are idealists. I am a realist. I love peace, I love democracy, but we don't live in a perfect world. Sometimes you must level the playing field in order to defend yourself. The Tuskens wouldn't have hunted Anakin. Why? Because Anakin could have wiped out 1,000 of them alone. Tuskens hunt down Shmi, who was defenseless. Tuskens are cowards. They do not fight, they attack the helpless. That said, the only way to be rid of them is to go on the offensive. I have to draw the parallel to Earth terrorists. Bin Laden attacks unarmed civilians, but runs and hides from our military. So would we be murdering he and his pals because it is WE who hunt him down?

  24. LordMelkor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Obi-Wan, would you justify the murder of Bin Laden`s children?
  25. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    LordMelkor, I wouldn't justify killing Bin Laden's children. On a side note, I would personlly slash their throats if given the opportunity. But let's not get boggled down in semantics.
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