CT Body disappearing

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DoubleGold, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. DoubleGold Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2013
    star 1
    In Episode 1, when Maul gets cut with the lightsaber, he gets cut in half.
    In Episode 4, Darth Vader strikes Kenobi down at about the same level, place and height as Maul, about waist high.
    Either they should both disappear, or they should both be cut in half, what gives? Other than obvious reasons that special effects were upgraded a lot since the 70's, I want to make sense of this from a narrative point of view.

    Edit: didn't see the questions thread, I'm sure this can be merged though, a lot of forums can merge new threads onto existing ones.
    Last edited by DoubleGold, Nov 8, 2013
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Kenobi is a practitioner of a technique, taught to him by Qui-Gon's ghost, that allows him to "become one with the Force, yet still have influence" and "return from the netherworld of the Force"

    As a result, he can "fade away" when struck down.

    Yoda does something similar, in RoTJ.

    Maul, by contrast, is a Sith- the Sith can't learn that precise technique, because it requires selflessness.

    Also - in the TCW series and comics, we find that he used the Dark Side to survive being cut in half. Eventually, he ends up on a junk planet, and puts together a lower body for himself.
    Immortiss likes this.
  3. The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Well...

    Qui-Gon is the first Jedi character in the films who doesn't disappear when he dies, revealing that the disappearing act wasn't common among Jedi during that time. Despite the fact that his body did not disappear, however, Qui-Gon's spirit was able to live on in the Force after his death, returning to instruct Yoda and Obi-Wan after the destruction of the Jedi Order.
    From Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda learned how to become one with the Force at the moment of their deaths, making their bodies disappear and returning as force ghosts.


    Maul, on the other hand, did not know of the technique.
    Last edited by The Star Wars Archivist, Nov 8, 2013
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Obi-Wan goes on to teach Anakin how to do this, in the moment after his death.

    Depending on the source, Anakin's body may then fade away (or not, if you reject the sources that say it does in favour of the ones that imply it doesn't).
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    We see Anakin die and he doesn't fade away. Also Obi-Wan has been dead for years before Anakin died, at what point would he have taught him? I always though he just became a ghost because he is the Chosen One.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    This is the scene shown from Anakin's point of view:

    Closing his eyes as he slumped back againt the shuttle ramp, Anakin Skywalker had every reason to believe he was finally about to embrace perpetual darkness.
    Not for the first time, he was wrong.

    Initially, there was darkness for Anakin Skywalker, a boundless shadowy realm, like a universe without stars. But then, from somewhere at the edge of his awareness, he perceived a distant, shimmering light, then heard a voice say, Anakin.
    The voice was familiar.
    Although Anakin no longer had a body or mouth with which to speak, he somehow answered, Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very very
    Anakin, listen carefully, Obi-Wan interrupted, and Anakin was aware that the distant light was either growing brighter or closer, or perhaps both. You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force, If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades.
    Knowing he was beyond redemption, Anakin said, But Master ... why me?
    Because you ended the horror, Anakin, Obi-Wan said. Because you fulfilled the prophesy.
    The light was very bright now.
    Anakin's first thought was that he might be able to see his children again. He said, Thank you, Master.

    This is the scene from Obi-Wan's point of view:

    Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.
    Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.
    Obi-Wan recalled what Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit had told him so long ago, when he said that Obi-Wan was not ready, and that he failed to understand. For so many years, Obi-Wan had thought Qui-Gon meant that he wasn't ready to comprehend details about Anakin's conversion to the dark side. But now, he finally understood his Master's words.
    I wasn't ready to forgive Anakin. And he won't be entirely free unless I do.
    Unfortunately, just as Obi-Wan realised that Anakin Skywalker lived, he also knew that Anakin would not live much longer. As Luke hauled his dying father toward a shuttle, Obi-Wan's spirit shifted his own psyche to another realm. And he waited.

    After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."
    A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness. "Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—"
    "Anakin, listen carefully," Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
    Obi-Wan sensed confusion and remorse in Anakin's psyche, then Anakin answered, "But Master ... why me?"
    "Because you ended the horror, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are ... The Chosen One."
    But Obi-Wan knew in his heart that those were not the only reasons. He added, "Because I was wrong about you. And because I am your friend."
    Anakin answered quietly, "Thank you, Master."

    Both are from books that revisit the events of the OT and the PT, and intermingle them with a few notable EU events as well. The two books are The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, and The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi - both by Ryder Windham- who is pretty much the go-to guy for Star Wars background books these days.
    It may have taken a few minutes- since Anakin had yet to learn to "become one with the Force". According to Wookieepedia- the StarWars.com Databank explicitly stated Vader's body faded away, leaving only the armour:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_ghost
    However, the Talk section for that entry, suggests it's a bit more ambiguous.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  7. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    I'll go with the movies as my source. Anakin's body didn't disappear.
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  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Didn't disappear while Luke was holding it. I notice though that Luke put Vader's helmet back on before cremating the suit- so we don't know that there's actually a head in there.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Lucas referred to Luke burning his father's body on the DVD commentary.
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Champions of the Force had been written long before the DVD came out.

    I suppose that, if the DVD makes it clear it's the body, and not just the armour, that's being burned, then that's a retcon of C-canon by G-canon.

    Still, Wookieepedia doesn't seem to have gotten round to fixing it.

    Anakin Skywalker page:

    When Vader re-embraced the light side of the Force, his organic body dematerialized and became one with the Force; Luke cremated only his father's armor with its prosthetics.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  11. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    It's not a retcon of anything. That is how it was when released in 1983, regardless of what any EU source said later. The suit was still in the shape of a body, not just a few cybernetic arms and legs.

    The Wook isn't official anyway.

    And do you really think Luke would drag empty armor off of the exploding Death Star and spend all that time making a funeral pyre for it?
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 8, 2013
    darth ladnar likes this.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Only after reading Champions of The Force- it didn't occur to me at the time to be sceptical of the assertion.

    Given that Mara Jade was portrayed as not "fading away" until several hours after her death, in Sacrifice, the idea that the fade wouldn't occur instantly, didn't pose me a problem.

    In Star Wars Poster Monthly, back in 1977, the suit is portrayed as "a walking iron lung".
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  13. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    EU aside, the movie shows no evidence of the body disappearing and the creator himself said it didn't.

    Iron lung is a type of respirator, which the suit was. That doesn't mean the suit was solid like medieval plate armor. It is clear as day that the suit is a soft flexible material.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Some of it is. Some of it is hard plating.

    Maybe you could quote, word for word, the section of the DVD that makes it clear that by "body" Lucas means Anakin's flesh, not just his suit & cybernetics?

    It's not like it would be easy to tell if there's anything of Anakin in the suit from the photo, in any case.
  15. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    Most of it is. The "hard plating" is around the shoulders, cod piece, and boots. The arms, main body, and legs are made of a soft material.

    If you have the DVD you can watch it and listen yourself. Having said that, body refers to just that, the body. If all that was left was armor and cybernetics, that is not the person's body.

    Actually, it is pretty easy to tell from a photo that Anakin's body is in the armor:
    [IMG]
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    On searching the forums- it looks like this topic has been hashed out a lot of times before. An example was given of a person who only faded away while actually on their funeral pyre (Kol Skywalker).

    I believe a big part of the reasoning why "Anakin must have faded away offscreen" was that both Yoda and Obi-Wan faded before later being seen as Force Ghosts.

    Qui-Gon never faded- and Qui-Gon has never been seen onscreen as a ghost. In fact, there's been theories that he cannot take form as a visible ghost- he can only be a Voice.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  17. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    Come on man, there is visual evidence that his body is in there. Comic characters from c.2010 don't really apply to movies from 1983.

    Jinn not appearing as a ghost has nothing to do with his body. It has to do with him not being accomplished enough in the technique to do it. Straight from GL.
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    And the evidence that he was not accomplished enough in the technique- could be his body not fading away.
  19. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    ugh....:oops:

    The evidence is that he doesn't appear as a ghost
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 8, 2013
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    If we look to the EU, besides Qui-Gon (and possibly Anakin) I can't think of any Jedi that became Ghosts but did not, at some point, fade.

    EDIT: Lucas may have changed his mind on this one ("Pabs" in this case, may be Pablo Hidalgo):

    http://forum1.aimoo.com/thehomepage...d-Anakin-disappear-when-he-died-1-875118.html

    According to Pabs on hyperspace today, George Lucas insisted that the starwars.com databank and the encylopedia state that Anakin disappear.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  21. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    maybe true, but the EU has nothing to do with whether Anakin disappeared at the end of RotJ.

    Let's not forget that the EU also has Sith ghosts, but we know from GL himself that Sith can't retain their identities, only Jedi can.

    EU ghosts do not matter.
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    How about books like The Star Wars Encyclopaedia? EU - but reference books.
  23. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    trumped by movies and GL
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    It may be hearsay- but if it's true that Lucas insisted sources state Anakin's body disappear- maybe the commentary shouldn't be read so literally.

    Given that David Prowse wasn't actually lying in a fire for that shot- how did they create it- with a dummy wearing the suit?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 8, 2013
  25. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    I go by what was said and what is proven, not what may have happened. We know GL said Luke burned his body. We know when they filmed the scene, the body was supposed to be there. We have no proof Lucas ever said or told anyone anything different.