Bogus Visions of the Future.

The More i watch ROTS, the more i wonder about Anakin and Luke's ability to actually see the future.

To watch Rots shows anakin having visions about padme dying in childbirth, she is yelling for anakin to help her(which never happens, on screen anyway) and she also see's obi wan there, uttering lines that he doesnt utter.

When Palpatine reveals himself to be the sith lord, he tells anakin that he knows about the dreams. I think Palpatine used the force and planted the dreams of padme's death in anakins subconcious.

Moreover i think Vader did the same thing to luke. It seems like to much of a coincidence that everytime someone has a premonition that it leads to a trap of the darkside.

Just a suggestion, discuss fine discussers

So, you are saying that, throughout the Saga, premonitions of the future are planted by the Dark Side?

That is an interesting thought. Both Luke and Anakin were lured into traps because they had premonitions that people close to them would suffer. Did Vader learn that trick from Palpatine? Perhaps.

I think there's definitely something odd about the fact that we see Anakin's visions of Padmes death in a way we didn't see his visions of his mother. Personally, I don't think it's anything to do with Palpatine's influence though- just the fact that Anakin was scared of the consequences of her pregnancy, and his dreams reflected what was on his mind.

Sometimes Jedi dreams are visions of the future, sure. But surely sometimes they are just ordinary dreams?

That's something I've been struggling with too - that the visions might have been from Palpatine/Sidious. Another possibility is that Sidious conducted himself much like the Dark Lord Sauron from Lord of the Rings, and allowed people to only see that which he wanted them to see. He showed them the truth, or at least the likely future, yet he only showed them as much as he wanted them to see.

In that manner, perhaps Palpatine/Sidious foresaw the whole of the birth (and Schmi's death - I have theories that he may have engineered both deaths) and then sent to Anakin selected excerpts. Of course it seems equally possible that Anakin's subconcious deliberately sought out visions he was afraid of - this serves both the Light side and the Dark. The Light side would see these visions as examples of what a person must conquer. The Dark side would see them as a source of motivation and strength. Yoda himself seemed to see facing one's fears as a vital part of training (later, with Luke at the cave).

If Anakin had abilities in drawing forth visions, then perhaps his subconcious mind did it for him.

Other arguments could be made about midichlorinians, but I'll skip those and move on to something more "real". Were the dreams real? Certainly his mother died, as did Padme, so something should be said about that. Either the person sending the dreams was knowledgeable about how things would happen (ie, Sidious engineered the deaths of Schmi and Padme), or they were true visions springing from the Force and colored by Anakin's exposure to the Dark side.

You can say "but Obi Wan didn't say 'conserve your strength' on screen to Padme", but that doesn't wash with me. Obi Wan was there with Padme for the entire birth. That entire event was not on screen. I find it very possible that he said something like that, and that Padme said "Anakin! Anakin! I love you!" as she did in the vision. Seems likely to me.

Actually, those parts of Padme's death scene WERE in, but they were cut out.

What the script says:



226 INT. POLIS MASSA-MEDICAL CENTER-NIGHT

POLIS MEDICS work, on PADME in an operating theater. OBI-WAN and one of the MEDICAL DROIDS enter an observation room where BAIL and YODA are waiting.

MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She's dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

BAIL ORGANA: Babies??!!

MEDICAL DROID: She's carrying twins.

YODA: Save them, we must. They are our last hope.

The MEDICAL DROID rushes back to the operating room. ARTOO and THREEPIO watch, greatly puzzled. ARTOO BEEPS.

C-3PO: It s some kind of reproductive process, I think.

227 INT. CORUSCANT-IMPERIAL REHAB CENTER-DAY

ANAKIN, in the medical capsule, is lifted onto a table in the Rehab Center. DROIDS go to work on him. ANAKIN has new legs and a new arm.

228 INT. POLIS MASSA-MEDICAL CENTER-NIGHT

The TWINS are being delivered as BAIL ORGANA, YODA, ARTOO, and THREEPIO watch. OBI-WAN is in the operating theater with PADME. He takes her hand.

OBI-WAN: Don't give up, Padme.

PADME winces from the pain. The MEDICAL DROID is holding the BABY.

MEDICAL DROID: It's a boy.

PADME: Luke . . .

PADME can only offer up a faint smile. She struggles to touch the baby on the forehead.

MEDICAL DROID: ... and a girl.

PADME: . . . Leia.

R2-D2, THREEPIO and BAIL ORGANA watch from an adjoining space.

229 INT. CORUSCANT-IMPERIAL REHAB CENTER-DAY

VADER, dressed in his black body armor, lies on the table. Nose plugs are inserted and the mask drops from above, sealing tightly. The helmet is fitted and VADER begins breathing.

230 INT. POLIS MASSA-MEDICAL CENTER-NIGHT

OBI WAN leans over PADME and softly speaks to her.

OBI-WAN: You have twins, Padme They need you . . . hang on.

PADME: I can't . . .

PADME winces again and takes OBI-WAN's hand. She is holding Anakin's japor snippet.

OBI-WAN: Save your energy.

PADME: Obi-Wan . . . there . . . is good in him. I know there is ... still . . .

A last gasp, and she dies. Obi-Wan studies the necklace.

I'm interested in the parallels between Luke's vision and Anakin's vision. That would make this topic fit better with the purpose of the Saga forum.

<<To watch Rots shows anakin having visions about padme dying in childbirth, she is yelling for anakin to help her(which never happens, on screen anyway) >>

Even without the explanation that the lines were cut from the film, I'd think this could be because "always in motion is the future." The visions shifted with the currents of the force, in response to changes in the future. A "butterfly effect," if you will.

As to Anakin and Luke both suffering dire consequences because of the visions, that's an interesting point. As undesirable an outcome as their resulting actions would seem, however, I wonder whether they were nevertheless the purpose of the force. For the circle events to reach its natural conclusion, perhaps these things had to be brought about?

I agree with chaos 9001. Bogus visions. It follows with GL's tradition of introducing a concept in the OT, then bringing it back in the PT and making it more obvious.

Luke's mistake in ESB was instrumental in his Jedi training. He learned so much from the events in the cloud city, that it gave him the clarity of mind to resolve the crises he caused (Han in the deep-freeze) and those he was burdened with since birth (personally fear, and socially the empire)

The main lesson I'd take out of this is, always learn from your mistakes. Luke does, Anikin can't because at that point he's so consumed with fear of the Jedi's dissaproval, hate for those who wronged him, the desire for more power, and Palpatine's influence.

double post, sorry

I agree with the fact that both visions were reflecting the course the future COULD take from the events as they happened to that point. One way or the other, padme was going to die. The way that it happened, anakin played the crucial part in killing her. BUT, the first vision has anakin (I presume from the dialogue) with padme. At this point, perhaps palpatine would have used a more direct method to ensnare anakin, i.e. framing the jedi in some way for padme's death to make him angry enough to turn. Once anakin decides to prevent this version of her death, he is now replaced by obi-wan in the vision by her side. Maybe the self-fulfilling prophecy was only self-fulfilling because of the particular path anakin's choices took.

The source of the Skywalker's dreams is irrelevant.

If either of them (well, especially, Anakin) had actually listened to Master Yoda's advice ("You must teach yourself to let go!"),so much tragedy in the GFFA could have been averted, if not nipped in the bud from day one.

I think Anakin´s dreams about Padme were real visions but that he just saw one possible future - after all, the future is always in motion - and then thought that the future had to be like that if he didn´t act, when in fact his actions made them come true.

Anakin´s dreams about his mother and Padme were different. In the case of Padme he saw one possible future. In the case of his mother he seems to have sensed what was happening to his mother just then as they seem to have started when she was captured by the Sand People.