Bolsheviks on the JC? Or, the Have's and the Have-not's strike again.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Wattowatta, May 6, 2002.

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Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    And no ofefnse to you, but I don't care if I'm popular.

    I applaud you for that, Sapient. A good mod can't care about whether or not he's popular. But what I'm saying is, many of the mods today take that view to extremes. It appears that none of them give two thoughts to what the people want. That doesnt' make for a leader that the people want to like, and respect. It makes for an efficient one, and probably a fair one, but let's face it. In a community such as this, having power and being popular at the same time is such a plus. I know many mods who are like that. Gatherer and Kadue come to mind. But for every one of those guys, I could name one that people have had so many problems with, and it's because they come off as uncaring. And then you guys gripe when we say you're too harsh or abusive. Take the time to become part of the community again, rather than just someone with access to the ban button.

    JMA
  2. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6
    No problem. Someone's gotta watch your back... ;)

  3. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    You're gonna wash my back?
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JMA...
    "But there are others, such as DarthLudicrous lately, Gandolf the Grey who's actions are questionable to say the least at times. And let's not forget Padme Bra and Commander Antilles, both mods who come into the Lit forum from time to time to do nothing but bash on the EU."

    Can you cite some example threads (if they haven't been deleted) for the following:

      1. Darth Ludicrous' "questionable" behavior
      2. Gandolf the Grey's "questionable" behavior
      3. Padme Bra coming into Lit. forum to do nothing but bash on the EU
      4. Commander Antilles coming into Lit. forum to do nothing but bash on the EU
    I only ask because a major point of Communications is to get away from vague innuendo.

    You obviously had to have some examples in mind.

    When it comes to Darth Ludicrous, I hardly see how his modding behavior has changed in the last three years. He's been doing the same thing he's been doing since I've been here. Strike that - there has been one major change - better acceptance of Marvel's Star Wars, which is certainly a plus for the EU forums.

    When it comes to Gandolf, which actions are "questionable to say the least." If we
    "say the most," are they still questionable? What are the examples? I'd say the Lit. forums are a better place post-GtG/Sturm than priot to GtG/Sturm.

    When it comes to Padme Bra and Commander Antilles, I can guarentee you that they come to the Lit. boards for things other than for bashing on the EU. I have numerous PM's to show where they've come and genuinely helped out the EU forums, making them a better place. Why should people be barred from certain forums anyway just for holding a minority or not well-liked opinion. It seems they're unfairly being attacked for having vocal opinions on what they view "Star Wars" is. Limiting people from forums/threads based on their opinion - as you seem to want to do to Padme Bra and Commander Antilles - seems to be the most elitist thing anyone's brought up here yet, IMO.
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Okay, I think that's pushing it too far, JMA.

    As Sapient pointed out earlier, there is a real person behind every name, and I think most of the moderators do care. Sometimes the ways of going about things may not be the best, but such things can be pointed out politely in private messages and such.

    A good moderator is impartial on various issues and objective. If it comes across as too detatched, well, that's part of the job sometimes. The key is being able to discuss issues on a personal level with those concerned and not coming across as uncaring.

    I think moderators usually try to do the right thing, but sometimes just don't go about it in the "best" way, or sometimes even the way they meant to.
  6. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6
  7. Wattowatta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2000
    star 4
    Sape, I think we're missing a point. To be pretty blunt, I don't give a damn about what you're doing over at the Prequel end of the JC. I'm sure you're doing a great job, but since I don't see the results of your work on a daily basis, I really have nothing but apathy here.

    But, you came to power by saying "I really really love the JC, make me a mod." You were a new-comer to the boards then, and the "Can I be a mod" demographic is pretty high amongst newbies that don't know any better. Then, all of a sudden, you got the job. That connotates an image that by sucking up, anyone can get a slot on the Mod Squad. (That was underscored with the whole farry issue.)

    That's the crux of this matter, Sape, and saying that "No, guys, I reallly do love this place!" is about the hardest sell you can possibly make. There, quite simply, are quite a bit of folks that won't believe that.
  8. Melyanna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2001
    star 4
    First of all, your comparison of this to communism is a bit... exaggerated. On top of that, there are many users here who once lived under communism, and they will be quick to tell you that not only are you wrong, you're also offending people by that comparison.

    Secondly, if you really have a problem with someone, don't bring it up in public. Work in out with the person privately. You're only opening yourself up for flaming and eventual banishment by this kind of posting, no matter how well supported your argument is.

    Finally, I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to help out on the boards. Personally, I love this community and I do what I can to help the members, both new and old. However, I think we're forgetting one very important thing - it's an internet message board service. Is it really worth all this bickering?
  9. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Ghengis

    Hmmm. That post was a bit rash wasn't it? I guess, seeing the recent stuff brought up with farraday, and the problems with Darth Ludicrous and Valyn, have shaken my faith a little bit in the moderators of the forum.

    1. Problems with Ludicrous:

    I started a whole thread on the topic of my, and the forums, problems with him, that was recently closed upon completion with Kadue. As I understand it, these problems have now been resolved. But as I also understand it, Valyn isn't the only one to have had problems with Ludicrous in the past. I'd have to ask around, but until I have evidence, I'm only stating that as an opinion.

    2. Problems with Gandolf the Grey:

    I'm currently in PM with him, trying to resolve these issues. Until then, I'd rather not mention specific instances, and if you'd like, I'll retract my public complaint about him. I don't have anything against him personally, I just don't feel he was the best choice for a mod, that's all.

    3 and 4. Problems with Padme Bra and CommanderAntilles:

    I'm going to be forced to retract these as well, since I really don't have the energy to go searching for the example that sticks out in my mind. What I'm thinking of is the "Canon" debates that pop up in the forums from time to time. I remember being shocked by the fact that Padme and Antilles participated in it as if they were any other poster. Rather than adding constructively to the conversation, they were acting extremely immaturely. I guess I just expect more from mods.

    So if I offended any of these guys, I apologize, and retract my statements. My opinion and statements that came from it are based on my limited experience with Padme and Antilles. I should perhaps research before saying anything else like this.

    Limiting people from forums/threads based on their opinion - as you seem to want to do to Padme Bra and Commander Antilles - seems to be the most elitist thing anyone's brought up here yet, IMO.

    ?[face_plain]

    Who said anything about restriction? I respect your opinion Ghengis, but please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not wanting to limit anyone to a certain forum based on opinion. I would just hope that if a movie purist moderator would come into the EU forum, he/she would use more common courtesy than I feel that those two have exhibited, in my limited experience.

    JMA
  10. DarthLothi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    However, I think we're forgetting one very important thing - it's an internet message board service. Is it really worth all this bickering?

    Hear, hear...
  11. Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 5
    I think some people take this whole message board too seriously.

    And I wasn't trying to impersonate anyone with those random mark up codes. Really, I wasn't.

    What? Stop glaring at me.
  12. MetallicPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    Sape, I think we're missing a point. To be pretty blunt, I don't give a damn about what you're doing over at the Prequel end of the JC.

    Well great then. For those of us who do spend a great deal of time in the PSA realize the how well Sape does his job.

    It would be a different story if he became mod and did a terrible job, but that is not the case.
  13. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Do I bash EU?
    Yes, I admit I don't like it, and it's not a requirement for mods to like EU.

    Do I let myself behave unprofessionally because of it?
    No. I clean up problems and such in the EU forum when needed. Jedi Merkurian, Genghis12, etc, know I'll go in and not let my personal opinions get in the way.
  14. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, I admit I don't like it, and it's not a requirement for mods to like EU.

    Never said it was, CA. It is required for a mod to act at a level of maturity above the normal poster, however. I'm going to try to do some digging for these canon debates now, in search of proof...

    JMA
  15. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Thanks, Mely.

    Yes, Communism is a really touchy topic for me, since I come from a post-Communistic country (even though it's been 12 years since Communism fell in Czechoslovakia). To be honest, just the title and the end of the first post made my blood boil.

    There is no need to insult communism. - No offense, but if you posted this, then you don't have a slightest clue what you're talking about.

    I'm not going to go into any discussion about Communism, but just let me remind you that anyone who praises Communists either doesn't know the real history or is just plain blind. But of course, I'm not asking of you to understand it. It's because most of you guys are Americans and you'll never fully understand it, because you never experienced it. I have.

    //end rant
  16. Wattowatta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2000
    star 4
    You're missing the point, Metallic. His performance as a mod is not the issue, and it's certainly to late to back-track and revoke his mod powers. So, we're left with how he came to his position, by actively campaigning for the slot. Under the conditions that I and many others came into the JC with, that would be instant reason to discard Sape from a possible slot.

    Nearly every newbie that comes on the boards says, "Can I be a mod? Ooooh! Oooooh! I'll do a good job, I promise!" It was only the truly dedicated that just went around their daily life here, and quietly made things better in their own way. Those were the people that became mods.

    However, here he is, a mod with colors and a crazy little icon to boot. The connotation is that he is no different from any other newbie on the forum, except that he licked the most dirt off the boots of the admins. That's what's wrong here, and that's what never should have happened.
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    It is required for a mod to act at a level of maturity above the normal poster, however

    What? Moderators are people too. I think all posters should be mature, but none of this "more mature than normal people" stuff. That's not reality, and it wouldn't be right if it were.
  18. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    What? Moderators are people too. I think all posters should be mature, but none of this "more mature than normal people" stuff. That's not reality, and it wouldn't be right if it were.

    I beg your pardon, but I seriously disagree. Someone with the ability to censor, and to even keep other people from being able to post, has got to act on a higher and more responsible level with his posts than the average JC forum poster. Responsibility and maturity should be two of the most important requirements to become a mod. I don't see how this is debatable.

    JMA
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Someone with the ability to censor, and to even keep other people from being able to post, has got to act on a higher and more responsible level with his posts than the average JC forum poster.

    You want them to be more mature than the rest, and yet stay part of the community and be able to relate with others?

    I don't think so. Moderators are no more or less human than regular members, and a good level of maturity and responsibility is what is necessary, just as it is with all members.
  20. MetallicPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 4
    Nearly every newbie that comes on the boards says, "Can I be a mod? Ooooh! Oooooh! I'll do a good job, I promise!"

    The difference being, Sape led by example long before he became a mod. PSA can be a nightmare. To be honest I don't have the patience a lot of time to point people in the right direction, and often resort to some kind of sarcastic comment (I'm sorry). Sape pointed people in the right direction, which ultimately is what a good mod does.

    So what he may have lacked in longevity, he made up for it by being helpful.

    (Take a look at his Episode III Forum Reference Thread, which he created before becoming a mod)
  21. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    You want them to be more mature than the rest, and yet stay part of the community and be able to relate with others?

    Yes. Is this too much to ask? Simply because they're "human" as you put it does not mean they can't meet those standards. I know several people in life who are in positions of authority, yet manage to act responsbily and mature, still being "one of the guys".

    I don't think so. Moderators are no more or less human than regular members, and a good level of maturity and responsibility is what is necessary, just as it is with all members.

    Sure it's necessary with all members. Let me ask you this. How often does it happen? How many of the tens of thousands of posters on these boards, are really mature, quality posters? Less than half, I'm willing to bet. Mods are the select few of us that have been chosen by other mods to exert authority on the forums. They are expected to be more MATURE and RESPONSIBLE than the average JC poster. This isn't an unreasonable request.

    JMA
  22. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yes. Is this too much to ask? Simply because they're "human" as you put it does not mean they can't meet those standards. I know several people in life who are in positions of authority, yet manage to act responsbily and mature, still being "one of the guys".

    It's simply not reality, and if you have a problem with that, you're probably on the wrong message board (although I doubt you'll find much difference with this particular issue anywhere else).

    Sure it's necessary with all members. Let me ask you this. How often does it happen? How many of the tens of thousands of posters on these boards, are really mature, quality posters? Less than half, I'm willing to bet. Mods are the select few of us that have been chosen by other mods to exert authority on the forums. They are expected to be more MATURE and RESPONSIBLE than the average JC poster. This isn't an unreasonable request.

    Moderators should be mature, responsible members, just as all members should be. Just because all members aren't is irrelevant to the issue. If you have a bunch of 18 year old teenagers who are acting immaturely, and a few who aren't, should the ones who are acting their age have to act any more adult than they really are just because of the others? In short, moderators and members should try for the same standard of maturity and responsibility, regardless of whether or not others cannot handle that standard.


  23. Wattowatta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2000
    star 4
    Pea, some people would say that I've done the same stuff as Sape, but I'm not a mod. Where the hell are my colors? The image is that Sapient simply licked harder and licked longer.
  24. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    It's simply not reality,

    ?[face_plain]

    Maybe you didn't read my post. I said I know several who fit the mold.

    Just because all members aren't is irrelevant to the issue.

    Again... ?[face_plain]

    How so? I see it as very relevant.

    Also, you might want to cool down a tad. I'm not looking for hostility here, merely a way to discuss my opinions.

    JMA
  25. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Being a mod doesn't mean you can't say what you think about aspects of Star Wars.

    Do you have any actual evidence of me behaving irresponsibly, bashing Lit posters, or letting my views cloud my actions as a moderator?
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