PT Books "ruining" it

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jeanine Berry, Sep 20, 2012.

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  1. Jeanine Berry Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2012
    If there's already a thread on this, my apologies.

    Who else is with me on this? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the PT and OT equally, as I'm such a Star Wars nutter (who needs therapy?!). But, now that I'm getting to be a more serious fan and actually reading the books alongside watching the movies, a little part has "ruined" it for me in ROTS. Not really "ruined", but made light of the situation. I now understand the Rule of Two, and when Palpy is talking with Anakin at the opera, we're supposed to think that Palpy's such a badass meanie because he killed his mentor. Well...they all did that according to the Rule. Or perhaps because Palpy was so pleased with himself? I don't know, I'm probably overlooking something. Anyway, I would love to hear other's input.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not sure what the books ruined for you, although I'll take a stab at this and guess that it's the "badass" component. I think Lucas has done an outstanding job at showing us that there is nothing at all "badass" about being a villain. However, some people are pissed off about that.

    I definitely think Palpatine was pleased with himself for killing Plagueis. That said, IMO the ROTS novel ran circles around the movie, and that's an understatement.
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  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I've got to say, @anakinfansince1983 , I've never really understood your preference for the ROTS novelization. Not that there's anything wrong with preferring it, but you've always maintained that you can't bear to watch the ROTS film. So I guess I find it kind of odd that you would adore the book considering it's (at least in my opinion) "worse" than the movie in many respects.

    Take Anakin's reunion with Padmé, for instance. In the film, I thought the scene was perfectly done, with Anakin showing caution, fear, ecstasy at the thought of being a father. In the novel, though, as soon as they are together, they're arguing about politics, with Anakin thinking there is someone coming between them, squeezing her shoulders until she has to tell him to stop. Honestly, it made one of the happiest scenes in the film rather unpleasant.

    His outburst in the Council during the movie, while unfortunate, did not come across as nearly as arrogant as it did in the novel either.

    Nor did I like the scene with Padmé in the apartment (the "I feel lost") when he thinks of her as some sort of bug that can be squashed. He certainly sounds perturbed in the movie, but it doesn't last and he immediately stops at the threshold of the door instead of going over to her and "towering" over her, hurting her feelings.

    The turn also...I'm not blaming Stover for this because he may very well have been following old drafts, but I found the turn less logical in the novel than the film and the relish with which Anakin killed the Jedi and Separatists seemed rather out of place. In the Mustafar platform confrontation, for example, when Padmé asks Anakin about the younglings, this is his expression:

    [IMG]

    He doesn't look pleased, he doesn't ignore it -- there's just a sense of resignation, like he thinks he did did something that had to be done (and Anakin certainly does feel some guilt, considering the tears he shed on the balcony in the film).

    In the book though, he immediately gets angry that Obi-Wan is merely alive.

    Obviously, there's lots of Anakin examples, but I also had other issues with the novels, such as the fight scenes being over-the-top (repelling 10,000 blaster bolts, for example) or very long.

    Of course, on some level, I understand that you prefer the format since it lets you see into the characters' heads. I guess I've just never quite grasped why you despise the movie so much while you seem to adore the novel? This isn't meant as an attack in any way. It's just something I'm a bit curious about.

    On the whole, I've found that I always seem to prefer the movies, so I thought it would be interesting to hear your perspective.:)
  4. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    wow well said piettshat
  5. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I also adore the RotS novelization, not that I have a problem with the film.
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  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The reunion scene in the movie is one of my favorite scenes in all six films, and the only reason I own the ROTS DVD. I do prefer the movie version to the novel version there. ("There is someone else, isn't there?" Stover, are you serious?) And one thing I didn't like about the novel is that there was no balcony scene before the nightmare scene. I thought the balcony scene with Padme brushing her hair, in spite of the corny dialogue, was a great scene extending how happy they were to be reunited.

    The Council scene--I'm not at all crazy about that scene in the film, and I thought the novel scene portrayed his anger pretty well. I laughed when Anakin thought, "Vaapad this." I don't think he deserved Mastery per se but in both the film and the novel, I understood why he was angry about it. And in the novel, Obi-Wan ignored Anakin's anger and kindly asked him to sit down next to him, which I liked--Obi-Wan having a calming influence on Anakin. Whereas in the film, as I recall Obi-Wan just shook his head in disgust.

    The "I feel lost" scene--I thought the novel did a better job of demonstrating how lost Anakin really felt. Yes, he had that thought about Padme, for a split second, and then he was so ashamed of himself--and so afraid of how close to darkness he was falling altogether--that he had to hide his face so she wouldn't see how close he was to tears. That was missing in the film. "I feel like I'm free-falling, free-falling in the dark, and I don't know whether I'm going to land or crash. And lately I think it's going to be a crash." (Paraphrasing.)

    Mustafar is lost on me in both the film and the novel, however, I felt that in the novel, the aftermath describes what is inside Anakin's head well enough that we are easily able to tell that he just snapped. I felt that I could see how insane Anakin really was when reading both his thoughts during that scene, which were sociopathic, and his thoughts afterwards, which were very much along the lines of "How could I have thought that she was lying, and how could I have thought that attacking her would solve the problem?" The passage beginning with "This is what it is like to be Anakin Skywalker, forever," makes me cry no matter how many times I read it. This is the horror that the man in the suit is forced to live with...forever. The nightmare of destroying everything he tried to save, all because he was stupid enough to look for salvation in the wrong place.

    That is missing from the film, simply because the filmmakers could not get inside Anakin's head.
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  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @anakinfansince1983

    One reason I preferred the Council scene in the movie to the book was that it really highlighted the gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin in that I think it's pretty clear that the Jedi Order, in many ways, comes between them. I personally thought Obi-Wan's response in the movie was more in character. Anakin was embarrassing himself and talking back to not only respected Masters, but Obi-Wan's close friends. I think his response was more appropriate in that regard.

    That's actually one of the things I dislike about Stover's novel is, in part, his handling of Obi-Wan. It's like he's trying to absolve Obi-Wan of blame that was never his in the first place. For example, in the shuttle scene with Mace and Yoda, Obi-Wan in the movie says that Anakin wasn't happy about the assignment (and Obi-Wan clearly had some reservations about it), but Obi-Wan also had faith in the mission. In the book, though, Obi-Wan's going on and on about how Anakin shouldn't trust them after this. And I found it completely illogical -- I can't imagine that if Obi-Wan really thought such a thing that he would actually ask Anakin to do it. But it seems like Stover is trying to make it sound like Obi-Wan "realized" that it would push Anakin to the Dark Side which is really flying in the face of logic. Not to mention the fact that in the novel, Padmé wants to tell Obi-Wan about her meetings with the Senators while in the deleted scenes, Lucas makes it clear that she wanted to tell Anakin.

    There's also the "Palpatine's shuttle arriving" excuse that Stover uses for why Obi-Wan didn't finish off Anakin. Is it really so bad if Obi-Wan was simply emotionally overwhelmed? Plus, it's a rather horrible excuse anyway considering that it would have taken Obi-Wan, at most, one second to finish Anakin off as he saw the shuttle arriving.

    As for the Padmé-Anakin relationship, I was just rather uncomfortable with how controlling and borderline abusive it came across as, at times -- with Anakin almost hurting Padmé, interrogating her, or being extremely controlling. That's not to say that the movie's relationship was perfectly healthy, though (obviously not). But Anakin never did anything to harm her until the Force choke and I thought it was, overall, better handled than the novel. Though you are right that there was some great dialogue in the book, but I don't feel it can counterbalance some of the rather awful implications it brings up.

    I don't know...I realize I'm in the vast minority here, but I just didn't feel that the novel captured the tone of the film all that well. Anakin complaining about Obi-Wan's lectures during the Mustafar duel was rather jarring, for instance. I also would have liked if Stover inserted some of Anakin's thoughts during the battle as well -- to serve as a contrast to Obi-Wan's. I often felt like the characters weren't really...themselves. That's one of my personal issues with the EU, though, I guess is that since it's not Lucas writing and putting the material together himself, you are (by necessity) reading an interpretation of the character through more of a fans' lens.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Sep 20, 2012
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  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think Obi-Wan really was on Anakin's side as far as that assignment, I think he knew how Anakin would react when it was given, which is one reason I liked the novel scene better. I think it's possible that Obi-Wan would give Anakin the assignment because he always deferred to the Council (with the exception of the end of TPM) and because he realized that it was necessary to get someone to spy on Palpatine and Anakin was their only choice--but he still felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. And he knew he would never be able to make Mace and Yoda understand the implications.

    As far as Padme wanting to tell Anakin about the Senators' meetings, she did want to tell Obi-Wan in the novel but she also felt really horrible about feeling forced to lie to her husband, so I didn't see much discrepancy.

    I will agree with you that for the most part, the Padme/Anakin scenes were better in the movie.
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  9. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    The only recollection I have of the ROTS novel consists of Anakin offering up some awful Freddy Krueger-esque punchlines while murdering the Separatists.

    IMHO, prose doesn't suit Star Wars. A comic book or screenplay may fare well, but the interior nature of the novel clashes mightily with Lucas's purely archetypal vision.
    Last edited by drg4, Sep 20, 2012
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, those were stupid. But I skip Mustafar in both the film and the novel.

    As PiettsHat mentioned already, the main reason I prefer the novel is that it gets inside Anakin's head. In years of discussions on these boards, I've seen a lot of "why the hell did Anakin do that?" discussions as well as assumptions that I thought were far-fetched regarding his motivations and inner thoughts. The novel, with the exception of a few scenes, does a better job explaining those, as does the AOTC novel. It's an area that I believe film sorely lacks.
  11. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I thought all Sith apprentices advanced to Master by killing the (former) master to answer an earlier question.

    As to Obi-Wan's "headshake" in the Council scene, I took it as a small, unconscious gesture of disappointment rather than an overt intended gesture of disgust. Haven't we all (I have) done that little head shake thing at reading something or seeing something on the news - a kind of "I can't believe that" shake of the head?
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @anakinfansince1983

    I see your points. I guess for me, the biggest problem I have with Obi-Wan's reaction to the assignment in the book is that I just can't imagine him asking that of Anakin if he really thought it would destroy the trust between them. The way I've always read Obi-Wan's character is that he remains in the dark about a lot of Anakin's problems, in part because they have difficulty connecting due to their upbringings, and in part due to Anakin's reticence to talk to him (such as when Obi-Wan is leaving to go capture Grievous).

    I felt Obi-Wan's reaction in the Council scene in the movie was also more appropriate because it was understandable -- much as he loves Anakin, he also loves and admires Yoda and Mace, and I don't think he would want Anakin behaving towards them in such a manner. He also must realize that Anakin isn't helping his case by lashing out, either. The scene in the film was also (fortunately) briefer, so Obi-Wan didn't even need to intervene.

    But, anyway, thank you for replying. I can see why you like the novel more than the film. Although, speaking for myself, I think I'll stick with the movie. :p
  13. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    I don't think RotS was "ruined" very much by books. RotJ was ruined much more by the books.
  14. Zer0 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I think TCW ruin the movies far more then the books could.
  15. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I tend to agree with @PiettsHat . I liked the ROTS novel, but I liked ROTS the movie more. Granted, novels in general are often better than movies based on them because they have a lot more time and opportunity to delve into things more. But in SW, the movies are not based on the novels, and I think that's noteworthy. Also, I agree with @drg4 that SW just seems best suited to the visual format more than anything else. I enjoyed the SW novels that I have read so far, but I don't think they were on the same level as the films at all. And from what I've heard, the novels that I've read are apparently a lot better in many people's opinions than a lot of the other EU content that's out there.
  16. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I also agree with PiettsHat and drg4. Star Wars is more suited to the visual format. I haven't read many of the novels, but in my opinion, the ROTS novel is rather weak, and Anakin is portrayed as a psycopath, willingly accepting the Dark Side, proud of being Lord Vader and being more of a bad-ass. I find the movie-Anakin much more interesting, fascinating and "realistic".
  17. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin was "proud of being Lord Vader?" What novel were you reading?
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  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Possibly the line about how he was now truly "The Hero with No Fear".
  19. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The "This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever" section completely cancels that out.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True- but I was guessing "proud of being Lord Vader" could be applied to a very short period, in the criticism.

    Him "weighing Padme's life against the entire Jedi Order- it was no contest" might have qualified as "willingly accepting the Dark Side".

    But that isn't necessarily any different from what we see on screen.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Willingly accepting the dark side? That's part of the story, no matter what version you're looking at. The dark side is like a vampire. You have to let the vampire in.
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  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Except, apparently, in Dark Empire, when Luke is forcibly brainwashed.
  23. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Um, no. He went there with the intention to turn.
  24. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    He tried to destroy it from within. It failed horribly and then he got brainwashed

    So from a point of view he still let it in
    Last edited by Esg, Sep 21, 2012
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    With the intention of learning Palpatine's secrets, at least. His plan was to learn everything he needed to know to defeat Palpatine- without getting corrupted by him. There's a certain amount of debate as to whether Luke had been corrupted at all- and if so- whether it was due to voluntary action by him- at the point when he sought to kill Palpatine.

    After losing the fight, Palpatine says "It is not your time to die- it is your time to submit- the Dark Side will break you!" and then, in the audio drama, the brainwashing begins:

    Emperor: You. Are. Nothing.
    Luke: Where am I?
    Emperor: Alone.
    Luke: No - Help me-
    Emperor: There is no one. There is only the Dark Side.
    Luke: I... am... a Jedi. Aaaaah!
    Emperor: You are not Jedi. You are nothing. You have no name.
    Luke: My name - is - Skywalker! AAAAAAH!
    Emperor: YOU. HAVE. NO. NAME!
    Luke: I-
    Emperor: Listen to the Dark Side. You have no name.
    Luke: I have... *dully* no name.
    Emperor: You serve the Dark Side.
    Luke: I... s-serve...
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 21, 2012
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