PT Books "ruining" it

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jeanine Berry, Sep 20, 2012.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's definitely part of Anakin's story in ROTS.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 21, 2012
  2. Master Valon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2012
    star 1
    I'm in total agreement with the statement that the ROTS novelization is worlds better than the film. IMO, Stover does a much more masterful job as showing how Anakin's turn is "justified" in his mind. And the italicized lines that intro each act? Absolute genius. The introspective nature of the characters that only a novel can provide enriches the plot immensely. I mean, I literally teared up and cried when I read this, which comes at the end of the novel:

    The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins- but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.
    Love is more than a candle.
    Love can ignite the stars.


    For the record....I never cried at ROTS, the film. I was depressed as Hell, sure, but....never cried. This is why I will always prefer that book.
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  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That quoted bit has been my signature here in the past and probably will be again.
  4. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I appreciate both equally, for different purposes. The novel for going inside the minds and thoughts of the characters and fleshing out everything. The movies for the sheer spectacle of SEEING it all play out.
  5. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I think the only thing I like about the RotS novel is that it gives a reason for Anakin wanting to become a Master (access to the holocron chamber), and therefore a reason for why he became angry at the Council session. It was something that didn't came out quite well in the movie, and was explained in the book.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Sep 22, 2012
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  6. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Giving Anakin such an specific reason (which is a bit silly, in my opinion) ruins it for me. Anakin wants to become a Master because he thinks he deserves it, he think he's better than the rest, and he wants recognition. It's more phsicological in the movie, and not tied to a specific mundane reason.
  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No, there is no build up in the movie to follow that reasoning. If Palpatine hadn't appointed him his representative in the Jedi Council, would he still think he deserves a Master title? Knowing for years what is required to become one?

    That isn't directly tied to becoming a Master.

    It's as mundane as searching for a dark side power to save someone and not to become more powerful himself.
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  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Except that a good, multi-dimensional, non-cookie-cutter character's motivations are never that simple, plus, deep inside I don't think that Anakin really felt that he deserved it. Arrogant people often behave that way as a cover for the opposite, very low self-esteem. And given the fact that Anakin was once someone else's property, it makes sense that he would behave arrogantly for this reason.

    I wouldn't like it if Anakin turned because he "wanted power." Why exactly did he want it? In both the film and the novel, he wanted it because he wanted to make life better (in his mind) for himself and Padme and wanted to be able to live openly with her.

    I'm glad there was an underlying motivation for his wanting Mastery, and that it was tied to his desperation to save Padme's life. After the conversation with Yoda, it was his last shot, and the Council's refusal tied to his turning to Palpatine as a final act of desperation. (Plus Palpatine certainly knew the Council would refuse to comply, and that would make Anakin angry. They played right into his hands.)

    I also liked that the novel had him refusing to sleep, afraid the nightmares would come back, pulling all-nighters in the Temple Archives looking for ways to save Padme--and then Palpatine offering to "help" by forcing the Council to give Anakin a spot.
  9. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Books (or comics or tv-series etc.) doesn't have the power to ruin anything for me. I take from them the things I like and add to my personal canon, while I ignore the the things I don't like or which doesn't make sense to me. I usually prefer the books over the movies because they offer an insight into what the characters are thinking in specific situation, and because they often offer a more "complete" picture of the story they are telling - especially in relation to RotS novel there are many scenes I thought was handled better (though there where some that I thought was done better in the movie) and there where some scenes in the book I really missed seeing in the movie.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes. He knows he has a higher midichlorian count than the Masters. He's killed a Sith. With TCW retroactively taken into account, he's trained a padawan. In AOTC he's already going on about his skills, he thinks he's ahead of Obi-Wan, and he thinks he rivals Yoda as a swordsman. Look at how easily Palpatine defeated a bunch of Masters. Anakin thinks he should be granted the title even though he arguably doesn't have the maturity for it.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 22, 2012
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Just wait, Arawn_Fenn, I'm sure Dooku will eventually survive just like Maul. [face_laugh]

    What I don't fully get is why Anakin, after years of training, seems to expect his high midis count and lightsaber (and Force?) skills translate into achieving mastery. Has the Order given him the impression that only power counts? I don't think so.

    No, maybe Palps has somehow twisted Anakin's views in this, as in other things - how the "weaker" Obi-Wan is on the Council, or something, but we don't see any of this, if it happened.

    I do understand that to Anakin, a former slave, having power equates to having control, but the way it plays out leaves me with questions as to those "missing" years between TPM and AoTC.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Sep 22, 2012
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  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The novelization indicated that Anakin knew that his name had come up for Mastery several times but that the Council kept saying he was too "unpredictable". Which...yeah. If predictability is a prerequisite, Anakin wasn't getting Mastery any time soon, if at all.

    To me the tantrum came down to two issues: one, this was his last shot at getting help from the Jedi to save Padme, and two, he wanted the Jedi to acknowledge the areas in which he was skilled, even if emotional control wasn't one of those areas.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 22, 2012
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  13. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Again, knowing for years what is required to become one? And I think the one about him being better than Yoda was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else.

    P.S: My argument was regarding the movies only.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Sep 22, 2012
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    The way I've alway understood it, Valairy_Scot, is that Anakin thinks of individual value primarily in terms of skills and abilities. We see this crop up in TPM, when he mentions to Padmé that he wouldn't have lasted with Watto so long if he weren't so good at fixing things, when he sarcastically quips to Sebulba that it would be a pity if he had to pay for him if Sebulba killed him, and him wanting to be useful to Qui-Gon by entering the race.

    His life has, overwhelmingly, been defined by what he can do and what services he can provide. So when he sees himself accomplishing things that the other Masters can do (and even some things they can't), I think it bothers him because he doesn't understand why he isn't elevated to their level. Because, in terms of completed missions, Anakin is certainly accomplished. I think he largely fails to realize that bequeathing Mastery is done in terms of self-Mastery, not in terms of achievements. It's not a checklist of requisite skill sets.

    And so, I think he feels alienated by the Council. He feels as though they unfairly don't treat him as an equal, even though he can complete any mission they can. And I think this was especially exacerbated when he found out he wasn't going to be a Master. Because initially, he believed they wouldn't grant him a seat, but when they did, he must have thought that them accepting him on the Council would mean he'd be made a Master as was the tradition. Therefore, when he wasn't, he was confused, disappointed, and angry -- he'd gotten his hopes up prematurely, in essence.



    Oh, and just to clarify some of my earlier statements, in regards to the ROTS novel, I don't think it by any means "ruins" anything. I was just curious as to the preference for the novel over the movie. That's all.
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  15. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @PiettsHat, I totally get what you're saying and largely agree EXCEPT that I think Anakin should have KNOWN by now that the Council puts a different "value" on the qualifications for mastery and so should not have been expecting them to follow HIS reasoning for why he should have mastery. (By his reasoning, yes, he should have been a knight some years before he was and a master sooner; he should have been a knight before AoTC going by his self- beliefs which to him, of course, were perfectly valid and correct.)

    I really think those missing years are something to mourn, at least on one level. Sure, we can understand Anakin all we want, extrapolate his thoughts and attitudes, but we never really get to see them in conflict, sublimated to, meshed with, or have any contact with Jedi training. Was this not a problem for some time, only acerbated by Palps manipulations and words in late adolescence - so many adolescents start to think they know better than their elders - that they will be the ones to reform the world as it should be and did Palps pick up on that? Was Anakin too angry and/or annoyed with the Order all those years but was forced to keep his mouth shut about it while he was a padawan?

    Anakin was not raised in isolation from Jedi values, but he seems to have absorbed none of them (as respects self-control, emotional release into the Force). I'm not arguing that the Jedi were always right,or if they practiced no emotion or emotional release.

    My "argument" is simply that Anakin should have known better how the Order awarded promotions regardless of how he felt about it and so he shouldn't have felt so betrayed. Granted, his fears for Padme affected his thinking; I'll not deny that.
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  16. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    I guess I'm in the minority, as well, because I didn't care for the novelization, either. While there are several minor reasons (like directly translating Artoo's dialogue), the main reason I have is that the novel seems to change Anakin's character. He's not so much a flawed, but basically good man who made the awful choice to use evil to achieve his goals, as he is mentally ill, possibly with a multiple personality disorder, and went into a psychotic break. (For example, putting on "his Anakin face" before meeting Padme on Mustafar.)

    But, I don't consider that "ruining it". I just put it aside and say to myself, "Girl in Lover's Lane," and go with the movie.
  17. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Hey, extreme exhaustion may come off as mental illness...

    Personally, I love 'em both though in some cases I prefer the movie and some the novel.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Except for the part about Ahsoka, everything I mentioned was from the movies. He might not really think he's better than Yoda. But I have a feeling he thought he was better than a lot of Masters, including Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 22, 2012
  19. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_laugh] Why not? With EU these days, "all bets are off".....:rolleyes:o_O;)


    Four words: "The plot demands it".


    Cue the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" hail-Mary pass....o_O
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 22, 2012
  20. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Yeah, yeah, yeah :Dbut *I* don't see anything pointing to anything even partially conclusive; I have just a lot of half-baked theories.
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  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I loved that.

    ARTOO SPEAKS!
  22. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    This is the first time I've seen someone imply that it's badass to kill someone in his sleep. That's an interesting take on it!

    As far as Star Wars novelizations go, they're usually really good. I have yet to read the AOTC and ROTS ones, but I really enjoyed the other ones!
    I'll always prefer the films, though. What I've heard about the ROTS novel sounds interesting, but in the end, it's just fluff. I don't need more than what the film gives me to understand the characters and their motivations.
    It's also affected me a great deal emotionally. The youngling scene even made me cry once. That usually never happens with movies.





    Murder - it's badass
    /LM
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's cool, I wouldn't say that I needed more than that either, the novel just reaffirmed what I already knew.

    But I've seen so much commentary over the years from people who, basing their opinion only what was straightforward on the screen, did not understand the characters' motivations at all, and said so. And for the most part I think the printed word does a much better job of getting across the thoughts and feelings of characters than a film does.
  24. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I liked the TPM and AotC ones, but not RotS. But like you, I always prefer the movies.
  25. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think on some level, Anakin is shown understanding what they want. But I think he doesn't really get it. I think it's a similar idea to how he views attachment: he knows that Jedi are supposed to detach themselves from what they love but he can't really comprehend how it's done or why it is done. And so he mimics the behavior as best he can and tries to live up to the standards set up by the Jedi without truly understanding why and how they function. And I imagine, that that leads to a great deal of frustration. Just look at the AOTC scene where Anakin whines about Obi-Wan -- he says how he's ahead of him in many ways and that it's not fair that Obi-Wan won't let him move on because he's too unpredictable. So I do think there's a bit of a disconnect there. I don't think Anakin always realizes what Obi-Wan (and the Jedi Order) are truly getting at, and so he mimes the behavior as best he can.

    I think one of the reasons Lucas might have chosen to skip much of Anakin's day to day classwork (although this is only a pet theory of mine, granted) is that it can't really illustrate the difficulty of Anakin's choices. He only learns about detachment and Jedi philosophy in theory during those times and I think he does understand that to some degree. It's not difficult to detach yourself when you are separated from those you love, for example. AOTC, I believe, was Lucas' starting point for the next film because it's really where Anakin's difficulties with the Jedi philosophy and his non-Jedi past crop up and collide with what he has been taught. In many ways, also, I think Anakin's dissatisfactions and Palpatine's manipulation can't be separated because they've coexisted together for Anakin's entire life within the Jedi Order. The two are deeply intertwined.

    I would say that Anakin did absorb the values, but he's always had trouble truly understanding them or believing them. Thus, he puts up a "facade" and broadcasts what he believes a Jedi should feel. The problem with using masks, though, is that they can slip, and I think that's why Obi-Wan finds Anakin's behavior unpredictable -- because as long as he can repress those emotions, he is being a "good" Jedi. But it never lasts because the foundation is so shaky that Anakin can't really build upon it. But he does show improvements in self-control (the biggest one being not going after his mother for so long, when it's clear he's concerned about her) and emotional release into the Force (we see him attempt to this, again, during the meditation scene in AOTC) -- he just often, largely, fails in such endeavors. But I don't think that's a result of not comprehending the principles in theory.

    I think Anakin's problem (besides not truly understanding the rationale) is also that he very much wants to be seen as an equal. And thus when it seems like the Council has agreed to make him an equal -- a Council member -- it must have made him happy to be recognized as such. When they suddenly decided not to grant him Mastery, though, it seemed like they were singling him out and this feeling, unfortunately, continues for a long time since Anakin often feels as though he is being excluded from the Council. I think, to be honest, that a better course of action would have been to let Anakin know, up front, that he wouldn't be made a Master and that his opinions wouldn't carry any weight. Or to just not let him on the Council in the first place.
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