Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Pretty much the title.

    There's the option to play Bright Sith in Star Wars: The Old Republic but, bluntly, we've rarely seen anything like it in the EU. There's people who are REDEEMED but almost no one who is the inverse of a Dark Jedi.

    Would this make the Sith more interesting?

    Discuss.
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    My understanding was that the "Bright Sith" (is that an actual term? Yikes) only remain "Sith" at all because of their strong cultural bonds with the Dromund Kaas Empire. Once you remove the DKE from the equation, why would we still be seeing them?

    EDIT: Though, I suppose it's possible you could see something similar with the One Sith. Didn't Talon give Cade some spiel about how there was more to Krayt's Sith than the dark side? It's been a while since I read through it.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Aug 29, 2013
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  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    I mostly use the term "Bright Sith" because it sounds a little cutsey and that's the most unlikely thing you might ever associate with Sith.

    As for Bright Sith, I can think of numerous reasons why they exist. The first being, of course, that just because you're in disagreement with traditional Sith philosophy doesn't mean you're going to switch to the Jedi philosophy. People have mentioned passion and love are emotions which can be a great source of good after all and there's nothing wrong with "through the force my chains are broken."

    If you're trained as a Sith and continue to use the Force, even in the service of the Lightside, you're not a Jedi. You're a Sith who just happens to have turned against the Dark Side.

    The Sith Warrior and Sith Inquistor are both Sith and continue to follow the Sith Code in the game when they switch to the Light Side. They just don't believe that the Sith code necessitates them being complete barves.

    I was hoping for maybe something like this with Krayt's group but they're all basically hillbilly psychos who grew up on Korriban and are EVILLLLL.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013
  4. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    Apr 12, 2013
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    Are you talking about the Sith species or the Sith order here?

    Because there was a few Sith (species) that served in the Jedi Order back in the day, and obviously they were lightsiders.

    But I can't see a person being a Sith of the Sith Order, and being anything but a darksider, since following the Dark Side is the core tenet of that order. A member of it who turned to follow the other side of the force would no longer be welcome.
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Isn't that the same as saying you can't see a Dark Jedi?

    Basically, I think that a lot of the recent use of the Sith have been somewhat uninspired because while it's great to have really evil psychopath guys, it's interesting to explore the area where one might encounter the Sith and learn their ways but not really fall for them. Either rebelling against them and remaining a protagonist and/or supporting character or being a character who attempts to form his own offshoot.

    Starkiller wanted to be a Jedi so he doesn't count but is otherwise a fairly typical example of what I'm talking about. Basically, Starkiller was trained by the Sith and until Rhom Kota never encounters anything resembling the Jedi Order yet continues to serve as a good guy. Similarly, Visa Marr is a Sith but is a Good GuyTM.

    You could even argue the same about Maarek Stele, even though he was never much of a Sith Acolyte. I think it's interesting to contemplate the nature of Good vs. Evil to believe that Evil is actually weaker than evil. That when exposed to the Light Side, many Sith will be as tempted by it as the Jedi but perhaps not abandon completely the idea of drawing the power of the force from emotion.

    I think part of the reason I want to see this is I've seen literally hundreds of evil Jedi but only one or two good Sith.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013
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  6. DarthVengeant Force Ghost

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    If you are outside of the beliefs of Sith, or "turned against the darkside", then you aren't a Sith anymore. Period. There is no such thing as a "bright sith". The term is a complete oxymoron contradiction, and laughable. Just like there is no such thing as a "dark jedi" because if you are dark then you aren't a Jedi anymore. These terms people have made up are frankly ridiculous and make no sense. No such thing as an Evil Jedi...contradiction. No such thing as a Good Sith....contradiction.

    You can use the force and not be Jedi or Sith. One doesn't have to have a label of Sith or Jedi. They can just be a force user.
    Last edited by DarthVengeant, Aug 29, 2013
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  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    I'm sure that's the religious orthodox view of both.

    One which I heartily disagree with.

    Then let me correct: A person who uses the Light Side of the Force who has Sith training and still self-identifies as a Sith.

    :)
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  8. Ulicus Lit'ari

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  9. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    As explained in TOR, there's the Sith Order and then there's the Empires that they rule.
  10. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    This would be my view as well.


    Though I could also see it popping up in the New Sith Wars, particularly the dark ages - in places the Sith controlled, it would be entirely possible for an essentially decent force user to be drafted as a Sith Apprentice, or born into a Sith family, or join out of desperation as there is no jedi order to provide a meaningful alternative.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    There's also the fact there's Good Sith. Just as there's Bad Jedi.
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  12. Trip Force Ghost

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    Dec 7, 2003
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    no
  13. Shadow Trooper Jedi Grand Master

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    Precisely. There was a Sith of Bane's order, Darth Gravid, mentioned in the Darth Plagieus novel, who believed the Sith should start using the Light side and that the Dark side was the Sith's biggest flaw, therefore he attempted to destroy Sith lore to remold the order to fit his new ideas.There was also Darth Vectivus from the LotF betrayal novel, who didn't do anything evil and was pretty much just a normal guy. Both Darth Gravid and Darth Vectivus fit the definition of good Sith, despite being part of Bane's lineage.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Good points.

    Yeah, my main concern is if there's hundreds of bad Jedi (The Jedi Covenant, Jerec, Kadann, and so on) and no Bright Sith (Revan's cult and the Jensaarai aside) it gives the false impression the Dark Side is stronger. But really, we just need someone who is trained as a Sith, redeemed, and DOESN'T become a Jedi.
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  15. Shadow Trooper Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah other than TOR Sith PCs and Darth Gravid, I can't really think of any Sith who renounced the Dark Side but still identify as a Sith. I thought Vestara Khai was going this way in FotJ unti l Denning decideed to make her evil again in Apocalypse and Crucible.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Well, obviously, the issue would be making them and EU about them.

    :)
  17. Shadow Trooper Jedi Grand Master

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    I imagine the reason this issue isn't expounded upon is that such individuals probably wouldn't last long in the Sith if they had such light side tendencies and thus would either wind up dead or redeemed. Sith academies are usually filled with infighting and back stabbing, and I imagine any Sith recruit who tried to play nice wouldn't last long. Same thing applies to the Rule of Two Sith.Gravid sure didn't last long after he got the ridiculous notion to be a good sith, with his plan to reform the Sith going awry when his pissed apprentice showed up and killed him.
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  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Good does not mean weak.

    It's one of the reasons I liked the Light Side Sith plots of the Old Republic, actually. The Sith are cold blooded killers and skilled but the very fact they DON'T constantly betray each other results in them surviving where the backstab Sith destroy themselves. It's an interesting statement, I think.
  19. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

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    Jul 12, 2010
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    Just to establish, we're talking about "bright" Sith here. In that case, all we're dealing with are Sith that are progressive. The use of the word bright is something of a serious misnomer, then.

    To use TOR, look at someone like Darth Marr. Very strong, clearly dedicated to the dark side of the Force but in the face of a crumbling Empire, he searches to build a unified front. One such way is by challenging the old notions of species within the Empire. He actively pushes for diversity because he believes that anyone who proves they have sufficient might should be able to earn their place. That's about as "bright" as he gets and roughly about as "bright" a Sith might get.

    The fundamental issue is that Sith philosophy and Sith society can only lend itself to so much tolerance and progressive thought. So Darth Marr can preach about a Sith society in which diversity is a fact and where the notion of patriotism/nationalism does away with detrimental battles between power bases all he wants but the question is if these things are feasible. Arguably, yes. The One Sith show that it can happen on a large scale. But that was also a philosophical different and it only worked so much before it started fraying; Krayt was, after all, betrayed by Wyyrlok.

    When you think of a Sith with these characteristics, you might want to consider Kaan alongside Marr but I'd argue they have fundamentally idealistic ideas about the Sith that don't match the reality. Could we have an individual character that might fit the bill? I think we could. JJM showed us that the Dark Age setting is prime for Sith of incredibly diverse philosophies.

    But at the end of the day, a character like this cannot function the same way that a dark Jedi does. Dark Jedi is a catch all term, for all intents and purpose. An inversion of this for the Sith has a very important thing stopping it from being as all encompassing: they're still Sith. Sith is a belief. And because of this, you're only allowed so much free space. Even the most progressive thinking Sith is a servant of the dark side. That means a lot of irreconcilable things must be in place.

    EDIT: I should add that there's no way they work in the Banite Sith at all. Gravid doesn't really count because he's an outlier who basically managed to pull off self redemption. Vectivus doesn't count because I doubt the reality matches the lie. We are, after all, talking about the guy who perfected Force Phantoms.
    Last edited by AlyxDinas, Aug 29, 2013
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    It's in the context of the opposite of a Dark Jedi. Basically, a Sith who chooses to follow the Light Side of the Force. He can be an emotional torrent, thrive on passions, and even potentially be a brooding anti-hero like Starkiller but he's ultimately on the side of the angels.

    Starkiller
    Mara Jade
    Darth Gradis
    The cult of Revan
    An actual redeemed Vestra Khai

    Maybe a kind of Sith Batman would be cool, too.
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  21. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

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    I wouldn't count Revan' s cult on the list because their philosophy is distinct from the Sith in some ways. That and they're demonstrably insane. Insofar as "a Sith who chooses to follow the Light Side of the Force"....I would tell you that such a thing cannot exist. Sith is a category, with criteria. The closest thing you get is Ashara Zavros but she's hardly a model of self honesty.
  22. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sith who stick together would definitely help to stop the EU's biggest problem: it repeats the same story over and over.
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  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Well, as Dark Jedi are heretics to the Jedi so would Bright Sith be followers of a heretical philosophy. I'm not saying the Sith Order should be redeemed (though a small Light Sith Order would be interesting) but it'd be interesting for various reasons. After all, we've already got the Imperial Knights who betray every principle of democracy and freedom the Jedi stand for yet still are Lightsiders.

    Mostly.
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  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Amen. That's my big problem. I love Star Wars myself but I don't need the OT and Prequels retold with the numbers filed off.
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  25. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

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    You gotta find a better term than Bright Sith.
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