Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    There are many shades of grey...
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Actually it sounds quite contradictory to me. No wonder we are arguing! First Lucas says the dark and the light side have to be kept in balance - and then he elaborates on how the dark should be avoided and defeated and how it is lesser than the light. Which is it? Is the dark lesser and bad or is it as important as the light?
    If the dark were necessary for the balance of the universe, then the Jedi shouldn't go after the Sith at all, except when they somehow manage to shift the balance.

    Edit: It seems as if he were attempting to somehow combine the eastern yin/yang with the western heaven/hell dichotomy, but this is doomed to fail as the two philosophies are inherently incompatible. Either both sides are equal - or they are not. You can't have both.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Sep 10, 2013
    tjace likes this.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It's internally consistent if you believe George Lucas' view of reality is not Taosim or Christianity but something separate from both. If you view the idea that Light and Dark are always in conflict but neither side SHOULD gain ascendance--it's a viewpoint entirely unique to Lucas but not so distinct from other religious practices.

    The conflict between Good and Evil in George Lucas' world is essential to the universe and can never end.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 10, 2013
    DigitalMessiah likes this.
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    It's his Christianity being informed by his Buddhism. Good is defined by Evil and Evil defined by Good, and neither can exist without the other.
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    That was a big deal in Dragonlance (influenced by Star Wars). The Gods of Good were beloved by the High God but Evil had to exist as an option or Good was valueless.
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    The distinction for Star Wars is that these are sides of a single entity -- if there's no dark side, then there's no light side either. And when you look at the big picture, it's still just the Force. You can't destroy a side of it -- the Force exists as a single entity or substance expressed through the dialectic.

    While I think it does break down into abstractions being defined by other abstractions, even the Force itself is indivisible but defined by opposites.

    The way Lucas talks about it, the light and dark sides are expressed more as self vs universe than good vs evil. It's about compassion and the realization that everyone is part of the same unified energy field and the self or ego is a distraction from the true nature of reality that everyone is part of the Force and "its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Lucas obviously thinks the dark side should remain small and impotent. It can't be destroyed being a supernatural power and a part of "god", of course.

    But he does think one side should gain ascendance. In the text DigitalMessiah posted he goes on and on about how to avoid falling to the dark side. Therefore he obviously views the dark side as something bad and inferior.

    A possible interpretation that might make sense is that the dark side exists as a means to test the Jedi, to force them to evolve and become stronger and better. Because with no obstacles = no evolution. But that is only my train of thought and not in the quoted text.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, I read that. He follows it up with explaining how bad the dark side is and what to do to avoid it. However he doesn't give one line of the "dangers of the light side". Therefore, for all his talk about balance, he doesn't view the sides as equal. One is bad and inherently inferior.
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5

    [IMG]
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You have no better answer but a stupid gif?
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    [IMG]
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't understand. So if you remain on the lightside you remain in balance? This is a blatant contradiction of his claim "we want to keep them in balance", because obviously, if there is no dark side, then there can't be a balance between the two sides.
  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    One of the major flaws we often hear about the prequel Jedi is that they were complacent. Which side of the Force results in complacency?
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Luke Skywalker became more complacent when he learned to use the light side? I didn't notice. Neither did I notice complacency in Qui-Gon or Mace Windu.
  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Luke is a the prequel Jedi? The prequel Jedi are comprised of Qui-Gon and Mace? Wow, I'm convinced the prequel Jedi weren't complacent. You win.

    I'm done here.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    You just invent stuff so that your weird theories make sense. But they don't solve any of the Lucas-created contradictions.
  18. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    =D=
    [IMG]
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    How about presenting some evidence, huh? The complacency of the OJO can easily be explained with the strong ties to politics and the added bureaucracy required to control a centralized huge Jedi order.

    The burden of proof regarding the hypothesis that the force creates complacency, lies on you.

    And you do notice that the Lucas text doesn't involve even one line about a flaw in the nature of the light side, right?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Sep 10, 2013
  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I suppose I could just say "obviously" or "clearly" a lot.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What? You think there can be balance in two sides of a thing when one doesn't exist? How does this make sense logically?

    Or didn't you notice how negatively he talked about the dark side in the very text you yourself quoted?
  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Wait, I am done here. All you produced so far is a big balloon of hot air with nothing but non-logic behind it.
  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    :confused:

    I'll just say that I'm assuming based on the discussion that certain facts are presumed by all parties to be in evidence, namely the films and Expanded Universe materials discussing the Force. We are on the Literature board, after all. The Mortis trilogy of episodes demonstrates the flaws of the light side of the Force as embodied in the Daughter.

    OBI-WAN: I must talk to him.
    DAUGHTER: Not until he's stronger.
    OBI-WAN: But your brother is losing himself to the dark side. He's taken our friend.
    DAUGHTER: Then he must have his reasons.
    OBI-WAN: The same reason he had for attempting to murder your father?
    DAUGHTER: He would never do such a thing.
    OBI-WAN: But I saw him.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Every Jedi is a representation of the light side as he is in-tuned with the light side. Yet you chose some dream figure that may or may not be only imagined to prove that the light side causes complacency. Logic fail.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Wait I need you to prove the Jedi are in-tune with the light side and not balanced in the Force first. Or is that what you were asking me? I'm SO CONFUSED!

    I'll just end this here. Sorry, the Force isn't God, and Star Wars isn't designed around a Christian paradigm.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013