Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    In this case I meant light side and "force" synonymously, as the Jedi never explicitly call it light side in the movies. But what they're talking about is to avoid the dark side, therefore using the force without drawing on the dark side. What remains can be shorthanded with "light side".

    Unless you think the force has a neutral side as well? It's possible, I guess.
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  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    The Force is neutral.
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  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Then you ignore that Lucas himself calls himself Methodist-buddhist.
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  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Neutral but has a dark side. Logic fail again.
  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    George Lucas isn't the Force?

    [IMG]

    @Ulicus I think I'm showing remarkable restraint. Please don't beat me.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
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  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Yes, I've seen the picture. That's a dipole, not neutral.

    Neutral would normally mean in this sense impartial. The force is anything but.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Sep 10, 2013
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  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Yeah, it is.
  8. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

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    This has no necessary bearing on how he conceives the Force. It is, shockingly, possible to hold personal beliefs that are different than the cosmology of your created art. Quite literally, this information tells us nothing useful or worth knowing outside of some trivia.
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  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    I would agree, unless of course you take the Lucas "cancer" ideal. Luke Skywalker's Unifying Force Principle as expressed in TUF actually does make it possible for the Dark Side to be destroyed as it is a corruption expressed by sentient thought.

    Sin brought to the Perfect Light Side Garden of Eden which can be theoretically cleansed.

    It could simply be the nature of the Beast. The Dark Side is hungry and ravenous, so if it's "cut loose" it grows and destroys everything. The Light Side, by nature, is passive and still. So the problem of letting it loose is different.

    That is the more Christian interpretation, definitely. It's also a valid one in Star Wars.

    My personal take on the Dark Side goes with the fact that Jedi require the Dark Side in minute amounts because anger, fear, and aggression have a role to play in life. However, they are primitive emotions versus the "higher emotions" of the Light Side. In that respect, Mace Windu had a very close view on the subject.

    The Dark Side is not something for Jedi to defeat but simply fight and grow stronger for the experience.

    To be fair, I think the Light Side doesn't lead to ossification necessarily. However, the Jedi Knighthood lost a great sense of dynamism. Whether this is because of the difference between the Living Force and the Unifying Force is another matter entirely.

    Which brings down to the actual issue that is at the heart of this debate. That the Force may be used as a metaphor for real-life issues of sin, salvation, damnation, chi, and pantheism but it's role in the Star Wars Universe is subject to the whims of writers. George Lucas' own views on the subject are authoratative but they are not omnipresent in the Expanded Universe since other writers bring their own ideas to it.

    The question isn't "what is right" but the issue of "what makes a better story."

    There are a dozen equally valid interpretations of the Force because it can change from writer to writer.
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  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    The Living Force and Unifying Force are the immanent and transcendent aspects of the Force -- that the Jedi became complacent, static, and reliant upon farseeing through the latter doesn't mean that the latter is responsible for that complacency or stasis.

    In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
    Finally, he saw the truth.
    This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .
    just --
    didn't --
    have it.
    He'd never had it. He had lost before it started.
    He had lost before he was born.
    The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' of intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
    They had become new.
    While the Jedi --
    The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

    Stasis and change.

    And I agree -- there's a particular writer whom I think is the best writer of SW fiction, and whose view is the one with which I agree -- and apparently, so does Lucas. And that view was the fuel behind the greatest achievement of the Expanded Universe as well.

    I'm not sure if you could call that bias.

    BUT WE'RE WAY OFF TOPIC.

    How does Vaapad fit your conception of a "Bright Sith," Charlemagne? Does that essentially render Mace Windu as functionally identical to your conception of one?
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
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  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    But yes, to pull back, I don't think I'd like the Dark Side to be redeemed. I like the Dark Side as having an essentially toxic quality to it. If the Jedi Knights are throwing around Force lightning and force-choking, not to mention using their anger to fuel their powers--it seems to me like they should suffer some consequences.

    Of course, I like the idea the Dark Side is the part of the Force which has an inherently corrosive nature. It doesn't MAKE you evil but to access it's full power, you have to empty yourself of everything but evil. It's pretty similar to what Darth Bane said about the Dark Side that you have to change yourself to access it's power by becoming obsessed with nothing BUT power.

    A Bright Sith would be an individual who manages to channel the Light Side of the Force through their Sith training. He would either seek Balance between the Light and the Dark Side of the Force or he would use positive emotions to supplement his use of the Force.

    This is, coincidentally, pretty damn similar to the way the Jed'ai of the DOTJ series are portrayed. So, really, it might be that this particular ship has already sailed. Likewise, Xesh as the "Darksider seduced by the Power of the Lightside" is another character that fills much of my idea.

    Part of the reason I'm intrigued by the idea of the Light Side Sith is because I'm a big fan of "Light within Darkness" stories. One of my favorite Pulp-Fantasy stories growing up was RA Salvatore's "Dark Elf" trilogy where, essentially, the main character grows up in a Sith-like environment. He resists it daily until he realizes he can no longer stand to live in the darkness.

    It's a pity RA Salvatore has sworn off writing Star Wars forever because he'd be perfect for writing the Sith in their natural society.

    It's again, a reason why I like Xesh because taking a walk on the Dark Side is always fun. I enjoyed the books from the perspective of Darth Maul, Darth Plagueis, and Darth Bane. However, the vast majority of these works never offer the possibility of redemption for our heroes.

    I'd really love to see some Sith books set in the Sith Empire so we can see the softer side of the Dark Lords. If Palpatine are at one end of the spectrum, Darth Imperius and Starkiller at the other, surely there has to be a group in-between.
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  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Has Salvatore sworn off SW? He wrote AOTC a few years after Vector Prime.

    As to the light and dark sides -- I think there's different gradations. For example, Vaapad. Is it the dark side for Mace to use his emotions in a fight, or is it merely skirting close to the dark side? Back to Witwer's quote:
    I think the Universe is too complex for someone to stay strictly on one side or the other 100% of the time. Killing is fundamentally destructive and thus dark -- but the act is balanced out by the Jedi only using it in defense of themselves or defense of others, theoretically speaking. I don't think there's a moral distinction between using the Force to kill and killing with weapons or bare hands. The Jedi aren't wholly Light: if you want a group that is, look no further than the Fallanassi, whom hide and do nothing. If the Jedi were wholly Light, there would never be any danger to them falling to the dark side because they'd never even come up to the boundary, let alone cross it.
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    That's what I heard, don't quote me on it.

    I also tend to agree.

    A Jedi Knight who kills gives into the Dark Side in the theoretical sense, even if it's in the name of defense and thus of the Light.

    We're getting into the "stealing M&M's" area of sin, however.
  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Well, you get the Jedi Covenant, for instance.

    [IMG]

    I wouldn't define that as stealing M&Ms, but they are attempting to circumvent a prophecy that they believe will result in a resurgence of the Sith. They aren't killing for defense though -- it's preemptive. I think most everyone will agree that is crossing the line as dark side, despite the intentions behind it.

    I suppose the inverse is Starkiller bringing together the Rebel Alliance with the intent that he's creating a distraction so that he and Vader can kill Sidious. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon discuss this in "Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan: The Aurorient Express."

    OBI-WAN: But master... a noble act committed for despicable purposes would be sullied by the mere existence of malevolent thought.

    QUI-GON: True, but a despicable act committed for noble purposes brings that very malevolence to the surface and gives it life.

    OBI-WAN: Then which is more acceptable -- a noble act committed for despicable purposes... or a despicable act committed for noble purposes? How can one be morally justifiable and not the other?

    QUI-GON: You must learn, as I did from my own master, that the true moral value of an act can be calculated by weighing the spirit of the motivation against the benefit of the result.

    OBI-WAN: He actually believed that certain despicable behaviors can be conscionable?

    QUI-GON: If it is overshadowed by a greater outcome, yes.

    OBI-WAN: I have a feeling Master Yoda would find issue with that theory...

    QUI-GON: I know for a fact that he does.
  15. tjace Force Ghost

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    That's an interesting passage. I can just hear Neeson and McGregor in those lines. It's interesting that Qui-Gon seems to be holding to at least some of his master's teachings, especially since he's held up as the best the OJO had to offer.
  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I think it's based on how Qui-Gon is overly fond of using Jedi mind tricks to his advantage -- he would view getting a transport from the Gungans they would not be inclined to give up to warn the Naboo overall in their best interests, or saddling Watto with a devalued currency in exchange for ship parts a worthwhile means to the end of getting the Queen to safety. Not to mention sorta cheating Watto at gambling to get the Chosen One trained as a Jedi.
    Edit: Not to mention this.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 10, 2013
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    There's some evidence for my theory. Ian McDiarmid has compared Palpatine to Satan and he was involved in production. The Jedi are called Jedi knights and knights are traditionally christian. The Sith look like demons and devils. Maul even has the appropriate horns. The Sith also indulge in the seven deadly sins, while the Jedi practice agape, a christian concept.

    I am not saying it is 100 percent certain that Lucas modelled the force after christian elements, but it certainly looks like it. It looks like a mix of Taoism and christian belief to me.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Lucas has always been fairly upfront that the Force is an attempt to model a universalist religion. Basically, his idea of the "truth" which might exist behind all religions.
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  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    The elephant parable.
  20. AlyxDinas Force Ghost

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    Confirmation bias is pretty strong here.
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Compassion is for those who deserve it.
  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    If George Lucas is one thing, then focused on symbolism. I am pretty sure he was aware of the implications of his choices (like calling the Jedi knights).
  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Admittedly, about 80% of Star Wars symbolism is, "George Lucas is including something cool like stuff from Westerns, Samurai movies, and WW2 pictures."
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Jedi comes from Jidaigeki, which Lucas would be familiar with through films such as The Hidden Fortress and Throne of Blood. The lightsaber and a Jedi's relationship with it is modeled on a samurai and his katana. The selfless vs selfish conflict is pure Buddhism -- self is an illusion that leads to suffering. The Force is generally speaking the Dao, with a dash of Brahman. Force powers are siddhi. The personal dark side is Jung, e.g. the Cave of Evil.
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  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    The Hidden Fortress is a treat for all Star Wars fans. You get Leia, 3PO, Artoo, and Obi Wan's origins.
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