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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 29, 2013.

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  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Jungian isn't eastern -- it just isn't Christian. But it seems you have Christianity in one hand, and all the other, evidently more minor influences in the other hand.
     
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I don't see that much Jungian influence actually and I read Jung. Jung was in favour of integrating the "shadow self" while Lucas seems more focused on how it can be defeated.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Yep, that's why Luke failed in the cave when he decapitated Vader.
     
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    As does denying it. :p

    But no, to handle more seriously the issue you've denied. The role of the Dark Side as a corruptive force is something which has heavy influences over the movie. The Dark Side is depicted not as a neutral or dangerous force inside the Star Wars Saga but as a SEDUCTIVE and CORRUPTING influence.

    Empire Strikes Back

    Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

    Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

    Return of the Jedi

    The Emperor: Patience, my friend. In time, he will seek *you* out, and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force.

    Luke: I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you.
    Anakin: You already have, Luke.

    The Emperor: [to Luke] Ah, yes. A Jedi's weapon, much like your father's. By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the Dark Side. So will it be with you.

    Luke: Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.
    Darth Vader: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.
    Luke: Then my father is truly dead.

    [The Emperor: [to Luke] The alliance... will die. As will your friends. Good, I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

    The Emperor: [To Luke] You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.

    As I mentioned before, the Star Wars SAGA is littered with stories of sin and salvation with Palpatine playing the archetypal role of Satan and a personification of the Dark Side. Many of his statements in the Saga's latter half make no sense save as a reflection of the fact he's the stand-in for Satan. The casting out into the Darkness is a bad thing.
     
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  5. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 12, 2010
    Sunlight creates vitamin D. (See? Language is a tricky thing.)

    You're missing the fundamental point. Which is that we know, largely, the sources drawn upon when the concept of the Force was created. Hyperfocus on linguistic terms is faulty because the terms are conveniences.

    Real world meditation often requires meditating "on" nothing and can have a variety of effects, some of which are amazingly vivid.
     
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  6. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    I see seductive -- I don't see corrupting. Carnal pleasures are more seductive than spiritual bliss. And that's the point.

    But now we're selectively excluding the prequel trilogy -- in which Lucas went out of his way to show that Anakin wasn't corrupted by, but chose the dark side -- to make our point.
     
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  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Nope. The body creates vit D using sunlight. Yes, language is tricky.

    I disagree. I think Lucas took great care in crafting this philosophy of his, at least back in the OT. I don't think he would call it will if he didn't mean will.
    I certainly wouldn't do it in his shoes.

    Indeed. But Jedi often are said to commune with the force.
     
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  8. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    Luke failed because he used needless aggression.

    Vader in cave seems somewhat jungian, but I think it is mostly just foreshadowing. As I said before, Lucas ignored one of the most important parts of Jung's philosophy, the integration of the shadow self.
     
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  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    [​IMG]
    I'm done wasting my time here.

    AlyxDinas I recommend you stop doing the same. And HWK-290
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Actually, the fact Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side of the Force through mundane means does not mean that he's any less of a supernatural figure of evil thereafter. It, in fact, fits well with Christian doctrines just as easily.

    Anakin Skywalker's fall to the Dark Side of the Force was brought about by the mundane sins of wrath, envy, greed, lust, and a desire to control Padme. Lucas even through in Anakin's jealousy of Obi Wan Kenobi influencing his vision of Padme's pregnancy--calling into question whether or not they were having an affair despite the idea being ludicrous.

    Anakin's headspace is misogynist and abusive. How more mundane and glamour-less can you be?

    Yet, the price of this mundane sin is hinted at throughout the Prequels as well. "Duel of the Fates" not only alludes to Darth Maul's role as the Satanic embodiment of evil (wearing on his face his demonic origins) but also the role of Qui Gon/Obi Wan versus the Sith in their control of Anakin. The tempting role of Palpatine is spread throughout the movie, showing how the road to hell is paved with the best intentions.

    This takes place on Mustafar where Anakin is metaphorically cast into a Lake of Fire. Like Darth Maul and Palpatine before him, he is cast into the pits of hell. Unlike the others, however, Anakin is left burning on the shore rather than incinerated outright. Anakin has not been consumed by the Dark Side but he is scarred by it. Anakin's mundane sin led to him becoming a supernatural figure of evil, a living zombie in the service of the Dark Side.

    In short, Lucas isn't saying the Devil made you do it but the Devil is quite real and there to hold your hand while you're going down his road.
     
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  11. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Ah yes, hell planet. I didn't think about this before. Thanks.
     
  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Personally, the Cave Metaphor doesn't need to be treated as a Jungian metaphor because there's a very literal interpretation for the metaphor. Forget all the stuff about Shadow Self, Dream Self, and even Light and Dark Side.

    The Cave is a surprisingly straight-forward statement about Luke and his headspace.

    "If you give into your anger and hatred, Luke, you will become just like your father."

    In short, Anakin Skywalker had the road of best intentions just like Luke. However, Anakin destroyed himself by giving into his anger and rage upon the Tusken Raiders as well as Count Dooku. His wrath, even against ostensibly worthy targets, was a factor in his self-destruction. Luke's willingness to use his hatred to destroy Darth Vader would result in him becoming a figure of evil.

    Yoda: Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

    A major theme of the movie is Yoda is WRONG in this depiction. Redemption is possible in the Star Wars universe. While it's stretching, it actually shows the difference between the Jedi as Old Testament figures before Luke assumes the role as a Messianic New Testament figure.

    It's purely coincidental but this is the role in Paradise Lost of Satan as God's first Son and the Son as God's second.

    Luke is the one Chosen to replace the Chosen One.

    Curiously, this also makes Obi Wan Kenobi the Archangel Michael. He is a figure who is loyal to God and perfect but, ultimately, meant to be surpassed by the Son.
     
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  13. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 12, 2010
    At least now you're sort of getting it. The point is that the words we use don't capture the truth of the matter. When you say the Force "creates" life, you wish to imply that it does so intelligently. However, I can just as easily turn this statement around as you did mine. And I can do so using as quote from the film. (I've been building to this the whole time, by the way.) "It's an energy field created by all living things."

    To play off your quote: "Nope. Living things create the Force." or better yet "Nope. Living things create the Force using midichlorians." or some other such inversion.


    I can just as easily use the word will in relation to gravity. It is the will of gravity (read: decree, disposition, direction, property) that smaller objects are drawn to ones of larger mass. After all, gravity exerts an observable force upon those things, therefore it must be doing so deliberately, thoughtfully. You notice how ridiculous that sounds, yes? Arguably, the same thing applies to the Force. The Force is defined, as shown above, as an energy field. It gets very little definition as an thinking entity. It gets far more explanation as something which merely reacts rather than act.



    And not all people think like you do or create like you do. Looking at Lucas and going "I would have done it this way" means nothing because you are not Lucas.


    And people are said to commune with nature, among many phrases. This does not make "nature" into deity.
     
  14. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    You seem to be of the opinion that Lucas repeatedly accidentally used misleading language. I am not. I don't see the need to question the meaning of the used language when it conveys something that more or less makes logical sense in the movies.

    You are obfuscating the statements. Lucas didn't write a big critique on language. He simply made a couple good movies and reused elements already known to many in the audience.


    His interviews give the impression that he cares about the force and the overlaying themes of his movies.
     
  15. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 12, 2010
    Not at all. I'm saying that his usage is deliberate, in a way which merely does not match your assumed definitions. That the language is being used in the context of thought processes that rest largely outside the western sphere of influence. Therefore, examination through a western lens or insistence on a Judeo-Christian context which lends itself to the notion of a thinking, separate, active entity is misguided.

    Never said he didn't. I merely said that comparing how you would do something to how he did something in an empty gesture. It means nothing in the context of the discussion.

    EDIT: You might also want to consider that the reason you can make such allegorical connections is because of the emphasis on Campbell's work.
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Juyo and Vaapad: The Bright Sith's Style of Fighting

    I'd like to get a moment off the Christian and Eastern influences to go mention something I always liked about Vaapad. Basically, I *LOVE* the philosophies behind the various styles of lightsaber and how they relate to what sort of Jedi Knight you are. About the only one I dislike is Style I because I can't think of a single "philosophy" behind it other than lazy. Admittedly, it's perhaps better than Style VI, whose philosophy boils down to "can't be bothered to actually learn how to fight decent."

    Juyo is the odd man out in the Star Wars styles, however. Basically, it's the fighting style designed to win. Form V runs close to this with Darth Vader practicing it but also LUKE. Both figures recognizing that the chief purpose of a battle style is to win in a fight, which requires strength and the will to dominate. Form V is a not-very-Jedi style of fighting but it's also perfect for individuals who are aware of the seriousness of their task.

    Form VII, though, is flat-out crazy because it's the Form you adopt when not only do you want to win but you LOVE TO FIGHT. It's no wonder that the Jedi Knighthood never completed the style until Mace Windu. The very adoption of the philosophy is pretty much akin to the one the Mandalorians gave Jaina Solo.

    I can't quote any off the top of my head but the Mandalorians argument to Jaina seems to basically be, "give into the Dark Side." It's NOT, though, and I actually think Traviss was saying something clever here. The Mandalorians say that the problem isn't being able to defeat Jacen Solo in a fair fight. The problem is that she needs to be in the head space where she's ready and willing to kill her brother.

    Vaapad is pretty much all about the headspace versus the manuevers. It's the fighting style which is the deadliest and most effective of the Seven Styles because it's about killing your opponent. The very acceptance of a fighting style designed around gleeful embrace of the Force as a method of destroying your enemies is, by nature, a big step towards the Dark Side. Furthermore, it's about not thinking, instead reacting on instinct. That a Jedi Knight abandons himself to the Force to achieve his goal--which is to destroy his enemies.

    I'm going to flat out say that Mace Windu created a Sith style of fighting by creating Vapaad. The Sith have their own variant on it, used by Darth Maul, but the heart of Juyo is a fundamentally Sith idealogy. "Through passion, I gain victory." It's ironically, why Mace Windu was able to defeat Darth Sidious because he's drawing on BOTH sides of the Force to be able to reflect back the Emperor's hatred. It's the one sort of threat Darth Sidious would never have prepared for because it's ALIEN to his idealogy.

    Sidious knows how to kill Dark Siders, he knows how to kill Lightsiders. He can't fight BALANCE. So he makes one of the few mistakes of his career and just turns up the juice to overpower Mace. Which, ultimately, doesn't work. Mace has made peace with his Dark Side and turned it to the side of good. It's why he has a Purple Lightsaber (blue+red=purple) and TOTALLY NOT Samuel L. Jackson just wanted a unique one.

    It's ironic that Mace Windu is a Bright Sith and yet missed the darkness in Anakin. He might have been able to turn that around.
     
  17. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    You might as well say that about every single Christian influence because there's a corresponding equivalent in a different religion that he could also be drawing from then. I'm not making that claim about Christianity -- except when it comes to the actual metaphysics of the Force itself, an immanent energy field generated by all living things. The Christian influence on Star Wars is thematic and symbolic, but it's not well represented in the metaphysics beyond the Virgin Birth (which could have been the work of a Sith Lord) and the overlap between the immanence of the Holy Ghost and the Dao and Brahman -- but Brahman and the Holy Spirit doesn't have two sides to it like the Dao, though in the case of Brahman if viewed from Advaita Vedanta one can see the connection through Ātman is Brahman, e.g. "trust your feelings" and "feel, don't think," among other things.
     
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  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Oh, I actually think the Cave is very Jungian. Then again, I think the nature of storytelling is Jungian. I just wanted to bring up the fact that the metaphor isn't all that deep.

    Jung's methodology is about describing how we associate symbols, dreams, and metaphor to real life.

    As a Jungian believer and author, I tend to think that EVERYTHING is Jung.

    :D
     
  19. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Freud also liked to analyze dreams for symbolism.

    So you do believe he was criticizing language and even the thought process of western thinkers in his movies?

    Do you have any evidence for that?

    If someone cares about something, he usually spends more effort on it.
     
  20. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    What happened to the question about Bright Sith?
     
  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    All good threads go off topic. It's a sign people are passionate about stuff. I figure the Vapaad stuff is worth a discussion for a bit.

    At some point, I want to discuss my disappointment with Darth Krayt's One Sith and the Brotherhood of Darkness.
     
  22. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Why not begin now
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Mostly, I wanted to hear people's reactions to the Vaapad article first and if anyone had any comments. :)
     
  24. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

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    That's what you got out of what I said? Seriously? Do you even read what people write or do you make up stuff that you want to reply to? I said that he's writing his philosophy largely off of eastern notions, which informs our understanding of the setting's cosmology and Force philosophy. Taoism, Buddhism. Et cetera. Not that he's writing a critique of the western thought process. I'm saying that when he uses, say, the word "will" he's not talking about a giant god in the sky dishing out divine inspiration or intervention. He's talking about something more comparable to the ebb and flow of a tide or the "will" of a natural phenomenon like gravity or entropy.

    Now you are, quite literally, saying nothing. The point was that he does care but he cares about it in a different way than you, not less. That comparing how you'd conceive of something to how Lucas conceives of something is a complete waste of time because the thing, the art already exists and has been created

    I have no damned clue. We're getting to the point where the category means so little that we're basically including Mace Windu into it. Or arguing that Mace is "balanced" because he uses Vaapad as well as the light side or something weird like that. The term keeps on morphing into whatever Charles wants it to mean whenever he needs it to change.

    I think that you've an uphill battle if you want to equate Mace fighting with Vaapad to anything resembling "balance."
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    A Bright Sith is a good guy Sith. Mace Windu isn't one. I just was being controversial. Sorry.

    I'll start us off with my Legacy disappointment.

    There's not much to say really but I felt kind of cheated by Legacy because you had the whole idea behind the "One Sith" where Darth Krayt had created a NSO which didn't have the faults of the previous group. They didn't have the same level of backstabbing and everything was for the glory of the Many Rather than the One. Instead, the group was primarily treated as a bunch of redsabers (Redshirts joke) who were somehow more evil than the Imperials.

    There was a big disappointing moment where the Imperial Loyalists (to Krayt) were HORRIFIED to discover that their ace pilots would be replaced by the Sith. Aside from the question of how the hell they have enough Sith to do this, the big reaction was that the Sith were MONSTERS compared to regular people.

    For me, the question became "why?" Why are these guys more evil than the Imperial Space Nazis? Is it because they use the Dark Side? Is it because their cult environment encouraged them to be psychopaths? Is it because being a Sith magically makes you more evil than an Imperial? I have no problem with Darth Krayt being a psychopath. I mostly am complaining about the fact we never got into the One Sith's headspace. They were just axiomatically evil and only Palpatine is that way in the Trilogy.

    They are evil because they are Sith.
    Sith are evil because they are Sith.

    I mean, we don't get any real sense about what the Sith WANT the entire book despite having much access to it. Darth Wyrrlock is the only one we get a sense of the actual views of. It's why I was disappointed Darth Krayt replaced him as he seemed so much more interesting and nuanced than the ex-Tusken Jedi.

    In short, in STAR WARS, a universe not known for its nuanced depictions of good vs. evil--I didn't buy the Sith as bad guys.

    Weird, huh?
     
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