Lit Bright Sith - Should we see them outside of the Old Republic?

I've been re-reading Shatterpoint specifically to get at the heart of Vaapad.

"No Jedi was perfect. All had flaws against which they struggled every day. Mace's few personal flaws were well known to every Jedi of his close acquaintance; he made no secret of them. On the contrary: it was part of Mace's particular greatness that he could freely acknowledge his weaknesses, and was not afraid to ask for help in dealing with them.
His applicable flaw, here: he liked to fight. This, in a Jedi, was especially dangerous."

This is Mace's dark side. There's a pertinent scene shortly thereafter where he and his party are attacked by three gunships, and he destroys one and the other two flee, and he's disappointed. Vaapad is him channeling his enjoyment of fighting into the fight to give him an edge. He's fighting with passion.

To be honest, this is something I'm still reading into so I don't have that much more to say about it, except to point out some quotes which may or may not coincide with it or contrast with it, namely:

"...let go your conscious self and act on instinct."

"Feel. Don't think. Trust your instincts."

AlyxDinas What are your thoughts on Vaapad?

 

The whole tricking the galaxy into a massive war so they could conquer it thing might have also had something to do with it.

That it's dangerous.

 

We're running in circles here. I will repeat it one last time: I think GL was perfectly aware of how his terminology would get interpreted by a western audience. And therefore he wouldn't use misleading terms like will and chosen one when he was actually thinking about them in an ... eastern fashion. Whatever that is supposed to be. Don't they have a word for will in east asia?

If he doesn't mean "will" or "chosen one" then why not call it "flow of the force" and "gifted one" or any such thing? Then nobody would mistakenly think about the force as god.

 

Passion that is guided, not walled away?

 

Oh, I don't have a problem with that. Palpatine as Satan metaphor and the Dark Side=Evil isn't a problem I have. I just enjoy knowing how we got from Point A: Regular Person to Point Z: Lucifer.

I understand Grand Moff Tarkin, he's a fascist monster who murdered billions with the push of a button. You take one look at him and you can get a general idea of his history. Upper-class politician who is willing to step on anyone who gets in his way. You understand how the Stormtroopers and Imperials work visually. It's a system which turns Farmboys like Luke into monsters through the banality and normalization of evil.

You can even understand if Palpatine's goal is "rule the galaxy so I never have to work again and everyone will have to respect me." It's just I dislike when Sith is substituted for character development.

It's pretty much my problem with Legacy in a nutshell. I don't believe in a sorting algorythm of evil. Grand Moff Tarkin, Jabba, and Darth Vader aren't a pyramid with the Emperor at top. Grand Moff Tarkin murdered 5 billion pacifists with his Doomsday Weapon. He's every bit as evil as the Emperor and the Empire on the ground is just as evil as the guys who are SUPERNATURALLY EVIL. The Space Nazis, which I use the term not to denegrate the real-life ones but remind people who the Empire is modeled after, is a reflection of MUNDANE evil versus supernatural evil. The Prequels are all about how the mundane reflects the Supernatural Evil.

Anakin is a Knight of the Devil and quite possibly the Anti-Christ's Right Hand but, before that, he was a guy who strangled his wife.

It's another thing I had wrong with Knight Errant. I love Kerra Holt, really. She's an adorable and plucky little Jedi but she's in Sith Country for her comic book and I find myself a little disappointed. Sith Country is North Korea basically, a nearly nonfunctional failed state (I mean the term failed state in its most literal sense) ruled by literal lunatics. The two main villains including a man who believes he's God and a Man Who Wants To Murder EveryoneTM. Later, he has a woman who randomly changes everyone's job and a pair of Creepy Twins who dominate EVERYONE.

We eventually discover how this ludicrous collection of comic-book caricatures can function with a clever Palpatine-esque puppetmaster. However, in Sith Country, we don't have people actually loyal to the Sith save through any method but brainwashing. It felt like a missed opportunity as we don't get a feeling of how the Sith and Jedi are similar but just a reinforcement that the Sith are everything BAD in the universe while Kerra is everything good.

 

Because, allegorically, they're stronger terms. Incidentally, he does use the word "flow" in relation to the Force. "A Jedi's strength flows from the Force." "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him." Both Yoda and Ben equate the communion with the Force in terms of a flow, a near Taoist dissolution of the ego in which letting go results in ease of action.

Vaapad assumes that the individual is the one in control. That they can temper and adequately hone their passion. But its very nature is to use that passion in a fundamentally unhealthy and dishonest way. It's not some type of cathartic release of passions into a guided, well crafted state. It's a self deceptive indulgence.

 

There was a good moment in Darth Bane's first novel where we get him and his buddies in a foxhole. People hated the Republic enough that they were actually ready and willing to join the Sith VOLUNTARILY.

It was similar to the situation with Revan and Malak.

People didn't just join the Sith because they wanted to be the ones who kicked dogs instead of the dog being kicked.

 

So far nothing you stated proves your hypothesis about the use of words like will and chosen one and so on is true. GL being interested in eastern religion doesn't make him suddenly forget how his mothers tongue works.

I don't deny there are some Taoist influences in SW. I admitted that a couple pages back. I just think christian influences also play an important role.

 

Yeah, that's not evil though. I want to see some emotional Force Users--especially ones who come from a Sith background.

 

How can I when you keep presuming to know what my supposed hypothesis is yet keep shifting around the apparent thesis? This is, of course, assuming I actually have one.

 

Feeling a little left out here.

WHAT are you guys talking about?

Serious, I'd love to jump in but I missed the ball some time ago it seems.

 

Your theory was that Lucas didn't use language in a way normal US citizens do.

Before you were just deconstructing.

Edit: But I need to sleep now. You can do more deconstructing tomorrow.

 

I don't think even Pevra knows what they want to talk about anymore. Apparently, I have some sort of hypothesis.

EDIT: Ah! There's the apparent hypothesis. Which is not remotely close to anything I've suggested thus far. Pev: just stop. I'll keep replying, because I don't enjoy ending discussion with people but if you're just going to keep making up things or consistently misinterpreting me, I'm forced to ask myself what the point is.

 

I love this kind of stuff, and think it's worth thinking about (my first post was on this topic, although in kind of a noobish fashion ). I think that Shii-Cho and Niman often get a bad rap, especially since the section in the EGttF. I think of Shii-Cho as more of a style that you would see on a medieval battlefield, aggressive like Kit Fisto in the Cestus Deception and doing what it takes to win, just not as focused as forms V or VII. It also is good for fighting multiple opponents (per KOTOR II) and thus seems to be focused on defeating an opponent as quickly as possible. So basically, the opposite of the lame collection of velocities that Cin Drallig makes it out to be. I also think that Niman should be used more by Jedi who fight more with Force abilities.

Anyway, on to your actual post. One thing that I think is interesting is that as much as Vaapad is built to win, Mace doesn't really seem to have that much emphasis on winning: "I don't have to win, all I have to do is fight." He tends to rely more on his wits and shatterpoint ability, imo. I agree that it makes sense that Vaapad didn't appear before then, as the user needs to have extreme self-discipline to master Vaapad, and to avoid Vaapad mastering them. Mace with his devotion to civilization and Depa with her Chalactan discipline being the only known masters.

I agree about Traviss making sense, but I think it could have been presented a little better to help draw the distinction between "JUST USE YOUR ANGER, DUH" and doing what is necessary.

"Vaapad is pretty much all about the headspace versus the manuevers. It's the fighting style which is the deadliest and most effective of the Seven Styles because it's about killing your opponent. The very acceptance of a fighting style designed around gleeful embrace of the Force as a method of destroying your enemies is, by nature, a big step towards the Dark Side. Furthermore, it's about not thinking, instead reacting on instinct. That a Jedi Knight abandons himself to the Force to achieve his goal--which is to destroy his enemies."

This is a very good description of it, and the only reason that Mace can use it and remain a Jedi is that he never abandons his restraint. If a Jedi just fought as hard as they could with everything they had all the time they will fall to the dark side like Depa did, especially with this form. A lot of good lessons to be learned in Shatterpoint.

The idea of Mace being Sith to any degree seems a little strange to me (although I don't know that you're wrong), but I do agree that his usage of Vaapad was dark, and that it makes him an interesting example of "balance" within a Jedi.

 

The issue is that "balance" in an individual isn't really some type of math game where their LS points align with their DS points. Balance is a state of mind and Vaapad doesn't really fit the bill.

 

I don't ascribe to the math game mentality myself, which was why balance was in quotes. It is still interesting to see how math mentality balance would work out, even if it isn't the same as actual balance. By itself I agree that Vaapad is a pretty unbalanced state of mind.

 

I think Form VI got a beneift in the D20 supplements where, by nature, you don't want any Form to be completely nerfed or no one would take it. Form VI got described as including the Light Side version of Dun Mok (I think that's how it spelled). I.e. that it was designed to intimidate opponents so that they could be subdued peacefully either with words or methods not designed to kill them.

In short, it's the opposite of Form VII. The form designed to not hurt your enemy--no wonder so many died.

I like Traviss as a person and her writing but I do think that a few tweaks would have helped fandom's reception of her work. Even so, she was always going to ruffle a few feathers along the way. I got what she was saying, though, that holding back against Jacen was dangerous. Denning, himself, used that as Luke's rationale for killing Jacen.

Please forget I said that because it's stupid and, again, mostly wanted people to comment on it. Which was dumb. Mace Windu is absolutely a Jedi but he fights like I imagine a Bright Sith would--using his passions and his emotions for a positive end.

I agree Mace's restraint is the only reason he didn't fall to the Dark Side. He kept in mind the one lesson any Juyo user would need.

"You have to never use Vapaad unless it's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY."

Mace manages it by channeling his desire and will to win into battle against proper foes. The difference is he's able to stop, hold himself back, and even lose if necessary. I agree it's a dangerous style but it's also something you may need when facing something like the Supreme Overlord. The way Luke just mowed down the Vong is pretty much when/if I see Vapaad.

I actually was in a Podcast with James Luceno and he said, "Sure, why not" when I asked if Luke was using Juyo then.

Mace Windu should make a koan. "To master Form VII, you have to master Form 0."

 

You had it pegged back at confirmation bias.

The use of a single word doesn't really override the fact that the Force is a single entity with a light side and a dark side -- something which the Christian God doesn't have. Even if we were to pretend that the Force was a personality, it's not a GOOD personality, and thus not the Christian God, because the dark side is as much a part of it as the light side, if not more so taking into account the fact that the Force is out of balance for nearly the entirety of the film saga.

We hear about how the Force "shows" Jedi visions -- but in Attack of the Clones Yoda says he can't see squat, and Mace says their ability to use the Force has been diminished. Then the Force "shows" Anakin a vision which leads him to become Darth Vader. The Force sounds pretty sinister to me!

 

Never claimed the force is 100% benevolent.

Oh, so now I am the one wasting your time? Wasn't it you who went on a massive tangent about the tricky nature of language? And now it turns out you didn't want to prove anything with it. Babbling for the sake of babbling.

 

Yes?

 

Oh really? Fine. You and DigitalMessiah, just go on living in the little fantasy dream world you built for yourself! Because that is where you obviously belong. A mystical magical pixie land, where Vergere isn't a Sith, Star Wars and Taoism are as one and Stover is the most enlightened human being on earth.

I've had it with you and especially your discussion style.
DigitalMessiah ... nothing but hot air and gifs instead of logical arguments!
You, nothing but questioning every little detail, beating around every bush and missing the forest for the trees! But guess what? Questioning language doesn't make facts invalid.

 

Another thought that occurs to me is this is the reason why the Modern Jedi Knights are so ineffective at wartime. War is, fundamentally, a butcher's game. It's about slaughtering as many (relatively) innocent people as you can until their leadership is forced to surrender or captured. It's, by nature, an inherently stupid system that relies on the people actually responsible for the war to be farthest away from its reprocussions.

The Jed'aii had it easier because they understood the Dark Side and were willing to get their hands dirty in the name of the greater good. It wasn't a perfect system as the Jedi are very good at preventing war in a way the original probably weren't. However, the Jedi mindset tends to crack once you realize the point of war is to break the spirits of one's opponents.

It's why Barriss and Depa both were broken.

The Sith have no such ethical boundaries, which is probably why Juyo is probably widely practiced by them. I wonder what they call it.

 

Juyo

 

At the same time, historically, we pretty much know it facilitates a certain type of laxness that will allow Rajivari and others to twist such notions into something overly aggressive. It's a mixed bag. The Jed'aii might have a more expansive attitude towards the Force but it is not necessarily the safest or most responsible one.

 

It worked for ten thousand years and wasn't disrupted until there was an outside influence.