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Brilliant pregnancy subtext in AOTC!

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Pyrogenic, Aug 11, 2009.

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  1. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    "I wasn't the youngest queen ever elected...but now that I think back on it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was ready."

    The etymology of "queen" is related to "quean."

    quean |kwen|
    noun archaic
    an impudent or ill-behaved girl or woman.
    ? a prostitute.
    ORIGIN Old English cwene [woman,] of Germanic origin; related to Dutch kween ?barren cow,? from an Indo-European root shared by Greek gune ?woman.?

    barren |'bar?n|
    adjective
    1 (of land) too poor to produce much or any vegetation. See note at naked .
    ? (of a tree or plant) not producing fruit or seed.
    ? archaic (of a woman) unable to have children.
    ? (of a female animal) not pregnant or unable to become so.
    ? showing no results or achievements; unproductive : much of philosophy has been barren.

    cow 1 |kou|
    noun
    a fully grown female animal of a domesticated breed of ox, used as a source of milk or beef : a dairy cow. See cattle .
    ? (loosely) a domestic bovine animal, regardless of sex or age.
    ? (in farming) a female domestic bovine animal that has borne more than one calf. Compare with heifer .
    ? the female of certain other large animals, for example elephant, rhinoceros, whale, seal, or reindeer.
    ? informal derogatory a woman, esp. a fat or stupid one : what does he see in that cow?

    Attack of the Clones is the locus of the series' themes of fertility and the mistreatment of women (here, much like the clones, as livestock). Padmé is the only female character in Star Wars who bears naturally conceived children. Everyone else is sterile. The etymology of "elected" is "picked out." The implication here is that, out of all the galaxy's infertile women, Padmé is chosen to bear children. The first lines subtextually mean something akin to "I wasn't the youngest infecund female ever chosen (by the Force) to have children...but now that I think back on it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was ready (to have kids, to die)." Fittingly, the Queen of Naboo in Revenge of the Sith is played by Keisha Castle-Hughes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisha_Castle-Hughes ), who not only had a child at a very young age, but who also later played the Virgin Mary in The Nativity Story.

    "The people you served thought you did a good job. I heard they even tried to amend the constitution so you could stay in office."

    Padmé's served many people as a result of her pregnancy. Luke and Leia became heroes.

    amend |?'mend|
    verb [ trans. ]
    make minor changes in (a text) in order to make it fairer, more accurate, or more up-to-date : the rule was amended to apply only to nonmembers.
    ? modify formally, as a legal document or legislative bill : did she amend her original will later on? | pressuring Panama to amend its banking laws.
    ? make better; improve : if you can amend or alter people's mind-set.
    ? archaic put right : a few things had gone wrong, but these had been amended.

    constitution |?känst?'t(y)oo sh ?n|
    noun
    1 a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.
    ? a written record of this : the preamble to the constitution of UNESCO.
    ? ( the Constitution) the basic written set of principles and precedents of federal government in the U.S., which came into operation in 1789 and has since been modified by twenty-seven amendments.
    2 the composition of something : the genetic constitution of a species.
    ? the forming or establishing of something : the constitution of a police authority.
    3 a person's physical state with regard to vitality, health, and strength : pregnancy had weakened her constitution.
    ? a person's mental or psychological makeup.

    To "amend the constitution" is to "make better or improve a person's physical state with regard to vitality, health, and strength," similar again to the clones in that they have a "modified genetic structure." The medical team during Padmé's delivery tried to heal her physically so that she could "stay in office," i.e., stay alive and active in a "political body." Anakin's lines subtextually read as "The people you
     
  2. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2004
    I did not get much of your post, but It seems you really can find hidden meanings where you want to find them.
     
  3. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    So every other woman in the GFFA was barren?
    And Padme was a prostitute?

    I see no subtext whatsoever; just a ton of "crazy-theories and what ifs?" trying to be made into something that they are not. No bash intended, but I find the entirety of this thread to be patently absurd.
     
  4. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2004
    I agree completely with SithStarSlayer.
     
  5. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 11, 2009
    I'm not really getting it. "Queen" (as in homosexual) is related to "quean" (as in prostitute). The relation of "quean" to "queen" (as in female ruler) is more complex; it appears English is unique among Indo-European languages in making the word for "female ruler" something other than a feminine form of "king", like Spanish has rey and reina or German has König and Kõnigin.

    And I don't think George has it in him to make such complicated Nobokovian puns.
     
  6. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    "I wasn't the youngest queen ever elected...but now that I think back on it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was ready."

    "The people you served thought you did a good job. I heard they even tried to amend the constitution so you could stay in office."

    "I was relieved when my two terms were up."

    How is this not both metaphorically and literally referencing Padmé's pregnancy?
     
  7. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    MisterVader's interpretation of these lines is congruent with Padme's name, especially in light of the fact that, on the surface, at least, she's talking exclusively about herself in this scene -- i.e. Padme. Even a marginally astute viewer/reader should be able to note the influence of Buddhism in SW and the life of George Lucas (who has called himself a "Methodist Buddhist" before); Padme's name is derived from a Buddhist mantra; the most auspicious of all Buddhist mantras, and, by extension, one of the most famous mantras in the world:

    http://www.google.co.uk/#q="om+mani+padme+hum"

    To simplify:

    "Om Mani Padme Hum" = "Hail The Jewel In The Lotus"

    One will need to pursue multiple search results in the above link for a deeper answer, but, in short: Padme's name alludes to her character's fate and over-arching symbolic function in the story of SW. Given the fact that Padme is fated to die in the OT-PT reverse-chronology of the SW saga, Lucas is suggesting an influence tied to her death; one that also stretches beyond it. Finally, given the cavalcade of other etymologically-sound names and wordplay in the saga (the PT, especially), it is more than likely that these connections were consciously intended. Lucas is much more steeped in history, culture and language than people are aware, and I thank MisterVader for his charitable effort in attempting to parse one such example and elucidate this to fellow fans.
     
  8. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 6, 2001
    Guys... Paul is dead. Seriously it's buried all over the Beatles' albums. You all should check it out sometime. It's BRILLIANT SUBTEXT by the Beatles... well the three that remained after Paul was killed.
     
  9. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Why the dismissive sarcasm? I'm only going by what words mean. Did anyone even read (let alone consider) my posts besides Cryo?
     
  10. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    This thread would be brilliant parody if not for the fact that I'm convinced its genuinely sincere. I wish I could add something constructive here, but honestly it takes me aback that fans read this much meaning into the film. I suppose I must applaud your creativity and devotion of thought.
     
  11. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Your response would be a brilliant parody if not for the fact that I'm convinced you don't understand English. You're arguing against the actual definitions of words. It takes me aback how fascistic these responses are. "Clones can think creatively." What a joke.

    Strilo edit: You need to relax. Stop being insulting. Telling users they don't understand English and calling their responses fascist is over the line. It stops now, please.
     
  12. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Clever, MisterVader, and reaching.

    I also like to champion Padme where possible. I'll purchase the theory that Lucas may have been unconsciously thinking of Padme's death at pregnancy when he wrote the line about "two terms", with the result being a happy shade of accidental genius. Your take on "amend the constitution" is slightly beyond my understanding of Lucas' delicacy. And to my knowledge Lucas doesn't smoke the finest weed in the South Farthing, and I'd be amazed if it could be proved that he paid as much attention to Old and Middle English etymologies as to Asian, Eastern and Classical Latin.

    IF Lucas had _meant_ or _intended_ a supposition that Padme's pregnancy was _on purpose_ by _some supernatural agency or Providence_ _IN ORDER THAT_ there might be a backup plan to the fact that the Chosen One prophecy was derailed, THEN that causes a snag with the fact that the pregnancy was conceived prior to Anakin's turn, UNLESS you hypothesize that the Force / Providence _knew_ that Anakin would turn based solely on the turn to the dark side with the Sandpeople.

    I don't know if you run an awful risk with this theory. It seems pretty harmless, except that it strangely awards Padme a consolation-prize significance to be apprehended only by literature or language buffs when almost every editing choice concerning deleted scenes would contradict that Padme has any centrality as an agent mother above and beyond the classical Greek and parochial ideal that all women are interchangeable (Luce Irigaray), comparable to fertile land.

    As far as the commentary goes, this exchange concerning terms is a foil to Palpatine's politically refusing to let the suns set, refusing to participate in a symbian circle, and finding a way to adapt to the displacement from his native planet, and introduction into a blazing center of power, at the cost of his soul, as well as (inferred) executing the one fellow Force-user who had discovered how to keep himself from dying, the very thing both Qui-Gon and Yoda accept as an morally and philosophically compatible eventuality. In fewest words, that discussion is really about Palpatine, who is the ubiloz, the evil, the uppity, the out of context. Padme is not out of context. The absence of female characters and traditional mothers has an easier explanation to be found in the serial origins.
     
  13. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    Artists don't unconsciously do things like this--they are fully aware of the choices they make. Anything else would be aleatory, tensionless, and heteronomous. There is absolutely no need for this scene's exposition other than to provide exactly the reading I've provided.

    Considering that in ROTS we hear "Medically, she is completely healthy" despite the fact that Padmé is moments from death, the assertion that the line sporting "amend the constitution" does not bear the connotation of "make better the physical state with regard to vitality, health, and strength" is absolutely ridiculous.

    All of the elements perfectly demonstrate the metaphor, without reaching. Why else do you think they have this discussion? It's superficially *pointless*. Just some random banter from the master of ironic analogies, George Lucas? It is to laugh.

    "I heard they even tried to amend the constitution to keep you in office" is a measure that failed because Padmé was relieved (released from duty; caused pain, distress, or difficulty to become less severe or serious) when her two pregnancy terms ended.

    This is all so mind-shatteringly obvious to me that I am genuinely alarmed and frustrated by the outright, baseless denial by other posters of these definitional and etymological FACTS. You don't think Lucas is smart enough to do this? Sorry to burst your bubble, but he is.

    I asserted that Padmé was selected (presumably by the Force) to be the only woman in the entire series to carry children naturally. If you don't buy that, then she was naturally selected. That is irrelevant. What matters is that "elected" means "picked out."

    You don't need to be a literature or language buff to understa
     
  14. X-Factor

    X-Factor Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2009
    If only I could be as half as intelligent as some of the above users...
    But I do think you're trying to add subtext to where there simply isn't any. I think sometimes we overanalyze these movies way too much and try to make them into something they're not.
     
  15. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    How am I adding subtext that isn't there when the words spoken by the characters mean exactly what I am asserting they mean?!

    SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THESE WORDS DON'T MEAN WHAT THEY DO.8-}
     
  16. Darth_Laudrup

    Darth_Laudrup Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2004
    I personally think you are overanalyzing.

    But I am sure that last smiley you posted helped a lot in making us want to debate the subject with you.
     
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    We can't. You've created a crumb trail that only you (and one or two others) can follow.

    I took Padme's mention of two terms as a slick minded Lucas' joke. When do Queens serve 4 year terms like a US Senator? I thought her comment was included to shine light on the fact that as a Senator and by movie's end THEE Chancellor, PALPATINE was about to rule indefinitely. I don't know if anyone else, saw it like that... and I've never once thought about starting a thread to convince others of what George intended with her dialogue, and political position within the GFFA. George is deeper than given credit for, I agree, but all this for some corny/awkward dialog?

    I highly doubt George sat down at his yellow pad and cooked up a handful of ways to subliminally state a backup plan that the Force willed. At that moment in time, (arguing with his master is not betraying, it's called teen petulance) Anakin had yet to betray his training...

    I appreciate the effort and time spent cooking this theory up, but I can't buy what's being peddled on the corner in here. To be valid across the board, your application needs to hold true for every character and their situational dialog. I don't see that as even remotely possible based solely on the interest of time. By your methods, it would take forever to write one rough draft of one script. And thus, your soliloquy sounds more like crazy theory than hidden subtext...

    If I applied your reasoning to every character/dialog in the movies, I'd end up spending time in padded rooms.
     
  18. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 6, 2001
    MisterVader you need to calm down. Insulting people who disagree with your post and analysis will get you nowhere.
     
  19. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I suppose this took talent but these films aren't that deep. There aren't so many layers of meaning. This isn't Shakespeare.
     
  20. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 30, 2005
    Then the joke is on us. We've devoted a fair share of our lives to this thirty-two year old space opera; if we aren't willing to plumb its depths, even at the risk of looking/sounding the fool, then we should in fact move on to Shakespeare.

    Anywho...though I can't subscribe to the notion that this subtext was deliberately planted?-all for the good, since I'm not intelligent enough to be a useful ally to Mister Vader?-it nicely supports Padme's role in the series. That she entered her lover's life in his childhood, and not adolescence, affirms her mystique is one of fertility, rather than sensuality. She is first and foremost a mother surrogate to Anakin, taking him into her arms in the wake of his breakdown on the farm, keeping her boy psychologically grounded throughout the Clone Wars, maintaining faith in him even in the face of child slaughter, and infusing in her next son, Luke, the desire to wrest him away from the tyrant who corrupted him. No wonder her voice was so flat in her Queen iteration: she's a momma, not a monarch.

    I'm very interested to see where this thread will go.
     
  21. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    I saw the title of this thread and thought it was going to be about the end of the Naboo picnic scene where Padme ends up on top of Anakin and the start of the next scene where the elongated flying Whale bursts out of the water on Kamino, which I've always thought hinted at... Well you know....[face_mischief]

    Seriously though, a nicely thought out post. I'm not sure I even begin to believe it, but I personally enjoy these in-depth analysis type discussions. Thanks for posting a very thought-provoking thread MisterVader. :)
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Well, now you've ruined that scene for me.:p
     
  23. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    There you go. Sex--->birth.

    One thing I've failed to mention is the actual scene where the dialogue exchange takes place. The first section is a single shot of Anakin and Padmé walking on a bridge over water;), and off in the distance, as Padmé says "I was relieved when my two terms were up," you can see a family with a couple little kids running around. The deleted scene's extra dialogue is concerned with Padmé starting a family and her sister's "wonderful kids." And like I said, "it's these funny little cuts on the side that give it away," i.e., spoil the subtextual nature of the scene. It's just like how the Padmé dinner scene was removed, in my opinion, to not ruin the fact that only Luke and Leia have two biological parents.
     
  24. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Yeah, that... and every bit of leaping dolphin footage here on earth.
     
  25. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Cone on guys, you've never watched Padme on top of Anakin for that lingering shot and then gone to the whale bursting out of the water and thought there was something kind of subliminal about it? [face_laugh]
     
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