Brilliant pregnancy subtext in AOTC!

Remember, G-FETT ...

The Republic = Darth Vader

"I'm depending on you to be the eyes, ears and voice of the Republic" - Palpatine to Anakin

And what do we see happening to Anakin later on? He is being assembled into the mechanical Darth Vader, whilst lying on a table in the middle of the new symbol of the new Republic (i.e. Empire). An overhead shot clearly shows discrete blocks of white light wrapping around the table, and therefore Anakin, in a circle, in the unmistakable shape of the Imperial seal. The visual sounds out the truth: Anakin is the embodimment of what the Republic has turned into. It *is* still the Republic, in essence, but it has been corrupted almost beyond recognition (like Anakin), and both have been renamed by Sidious in an attempt to efface the past.

So, in this scene in AOTC, Anakin is unwittingly saying *he* needs Padme, a need which is attended to, through Luke, to his benefit, validating the statement, in ROTJ. On the face of it, what MisterVader is saying may seem unwieldly and complex, but it isn't. He's called on the power of etymology to strengthen his case, but it may, ironically, have served to obfuscate it. Just put ROTS on. That's the key. Lucas has cleverly intertwined and interlinked everything. The inexorable tragedy of the story is that Anakin aligns himself more and more with the Republic -- with a faceless, heartless, amoral political body -- in each film, until, in essence, he acquires a faceless, heartless, amoral political body; a robotic body, with the "real" Anakin buried inside, as if shut away in his own sarcophagus ("Quiet as a tomb").

How does Anakin extract himself, and the galaxy, from this "nightmare"? By taking down the Emperor, OK. But how does he do that? By finding the strength within himself to overcome his fatalistic attachment to the very system he has turned into. He discovers it is possible to overcome, to abandon, to leave. To open his eyes and no longer be blinded by power as a means to an end. To have courage in his own autonomy. Not the false autonomy of prostration to a system. Of sacrificing body and soul to the machinery of the Empire. Ditch it. Get rid. Move on. Be your own person. And it's Luke that gives him the strength to do that. Luke acting through the wisdom of Padme. Back in the time of AOTC, Anakin's greatest loyalty was to the Republic and Palpatine, not Padme. He couldn't see that at the time, but his remark to Padme is telling: "I think the Republic needs you". He's praising Padme, but he's expressing a love of the Republic more. And as he moves further to the Dark Side along with the Republic, as he blindly throws in with a system, over his Jedi brethren, over Obi-Wan, and finally, and most tragically, over Padme, he essentially *is* the Republic, because Sidious has drawn him closer and closer to its centre, and that shot of Anakin being operated on, reshaped, rebuilt ... THAT clinches it.

We all know it's a worthy story (the non-PT bashers, that is), but I think MisterVader has just tried to show us HOW WORTHY. How tightly crafted. How much layering. How much emphasis; a little on the surface, much more that can be teased out from below. Here is another tribute to Lucas and his incisiveness. How he approached dialogue. Characters. Story details. The spirituality of SW. The messages of charity, hope, fairness, love. It's all there. A little analysis goes a long way for this galaxy far, far away, and maybe not so far away.

 

Excellent post. But can you really deduce all that just from a thirty second conversation between Padme and Anakin?

I might just have to put the Prequels on again at the weekend.

 

I am really disappointed that we have a decent thread here with solid discussion potential and it's being degraded and jeopardized by such posting. This is the last chance for this thread to continue. Please no more personal attacks for someone who disagrees with you. No discussing moderator decisions. Discuss the films, not the fans. If not, this thread will be locked.

 

No, you can't. There is always a range of meaning that limits possible interpretation.

And to G-FETT: Yes, Lucas has packed ridiculous amounts of information into even the slightest gestures of characters. It all depends on what the details draw analogies to...

 

From the top.

[1] "I wasn't the youngest queen ever elected...but now that I think back on it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was ready."

All evidence from which you seek to draw _must_ be presented already in the court case known as the entire two trilogies. For your theory to work, you need to hypothesize who the 'youngest queen' indeed _was_, lest the viewer have no control substance or starting point. Was it Shmi? Lucas doesn't offer other mothers selected by the Force. The casting choice suggests Shmi was not as young as Padme at childbirth when she herself had Anakin. Pernilla August was 41 as of 1999 TPM, and Natalie Portman was 24 as of 2005 ROTS.

[2] "But when the queen asked me to serve as senator...I couldn't refuse her."

Kenobi was accorded rank of Master as of TPM, and was on the Jedi Council (I think as of AOTC), and Ewan McGregor was 34 y.o. as of ROTS. If you are strenuously adamant, I can see where you would want to claim reasonable doubt in insisting that Kenobi/McGregor qualifies as a -senatus-. Fine.

But mapping "senator" > senatus > 'old man' > Kenobi does not inherently explain what the Heavenly / Assumed Padme _DOES_. You can suggest that she prompts a memory of Earthly / Corporeal Padme in the discussion between Luke and Leia. But this cannot be validated - it can remain only a conjecture. Padme is certainly not referenced by Alec Guiness or crimson-sabred, sable-armored Darth Vader, nor is her metaphorical, symbolic or representative voice brought forward in any of their dialogue.

(A) Both Ewan McGregor and Alec Guiness lost faith in Anakin, whereas Padme did not. And (B) where Alec Guiness admonishes Luke to use the Force, Padme had no access to it. Even if you hypothesize the Force selected her as a vessel (cinematically plausible if you're applying literary criticism to Star Wars), that does not dictate that she had any Force abilities. You need to strictly outline some mechanism of continuity between her dying faith in Anakin and Luke's emergent same. Postulating a quantum entanglement across 20 years is as they say in physics, hand waving. Again, I see only conjecture with the forest evening scene. Luke, the Hero, _may_ have had that ideal or inspiration himself, sans muse. That's the simplest.

{Note on opening post: You cannot use "almost" in a mathematical argument. The juxtaposition is a simile or it is not; there is no almost. Strengthen the relevant opening claim.}

[3] "padawan"

I conservatively assume that this word did not exist prior to the writing of TPM, and that it came into existence essentially at the same time as Lucas' use of the non-English word "padme". Yes, David Prowse and Sebastian Shaw learn from Mark Hamil, but how Mark Hamil learns from Natalie Portman is conjecture. Without that, this linguistic observation is footnote.

[4] "The people you served thought you did a good job. I heard they even tried to amend the constitution so you could stay in office."

As of end of ROTS: Yes, it is the nascent Rebellion, capital "R", presently steered by none other than Senator Bail Organa, and it is not quite an Alliance, and the (Imperial) Senate still 'performs' representation, and the local systems are not yet kept in line by fear of this battle station. However, your theory requires a temporal cart before the horse. All parties that were present to observe the _performance_ of the awful risk known as Luke Skywalker included Force-Kenobi, Force-Yoda, and living Darth Vader. That is the very first moment that "the people [whom Heavenly / Assumed Padme] served _COULD_ think she had done a good job. Up until then, Luke's destiny was quite in flux. The OOOO-Bahhh midwife and Dr. Float could not have _known_ anything about the twins they just retrieved. There was no "good job", having been accomplished, so as to merit reward or remuneration in the form of additional medical attention. I should think it was quite the reverse: She received emergency medical attention or an attempt to amend her constitution _because_ someone suspected that her childbearing may s

 

Actually, Kenobi was accorded the rank of Knight as of TPM, and was on the Council in ROTS but not AOTC.

 

No, by "autonomous" I mean "having its own laws," i.e., very intentional and very independent. Everything in Star Wars has hidden meaning that most people wouldn't recognize if it punched them in the face. I have yet to see anyone arguing in this thread counter the etymology I have thoroughly explained.

 

It never occurred to me either, but I'm sure that going forward I won't ever be able to watch this part without thinking about this now...

 

At least it wasn't a sperm whale.

That would be pushing it.

 

Me neither . Alfred Hitchcock had his train tunnels, George Lucas has his whales.

At least it wasn't a sperm whale blowing water through its hole.

--MissPadme

 

There is no subtext in any of the lines discussed in this thread. They are present to explain how loved Amidala was as queen, how she felt about being elected so young, and why she is a Senator in this film rather than a Queen as she was in the previous.

You would do well to remember that the scene you refer to was originally much longer and was trimmed down so that it would be less disruptive in the general connectivity of the final picture. Here is the scene in its entirety as it appeared in the script:

--------

EXTERIOR: NABOO PALACE, GRAND COURTYARD - AFTERNOON

The speeder bus pulls up and stops. PADMÉ, ANAKIN, and
ARTOO get out. The great courtyard stretches before them,
and they see the rose-colored domes of the palace on the
far side. ARTOO WHISTLES. They pick up their gear and start
to cross the courtyard. ARTOO trundles behind them.

ANAKIN: If I grew up here, I don't think I'd ever leave.

PADMÉ: (laughing) I doubt that.

ANAKIN: No, really. When I started my training, I was very
homesick and very lonely. This city and my Mom were the
only pleasant things I had to think about... The problem
was, the more I thought about my Mom, the worse I felt. But
I would feel better if I thought about the palace - the way
it shimmers in the sunlight - the way the air always smells
of flowers...

PADMÉ: ...and the soft sound of the distant waterfalls. The
first time I saw the Capital, I was very young... I'd never
seen a waterfall before. I thought they were so
beautiful... I never dreamed one day I'd live in the
palace.

ANAKIN: Well, tell me, did you dream of power and politics
when you were a little girl?

PADMÉ: (laughing) No! That was the last thing I thought of,
but the more history I studied, the more I realized how
much good politicians could do. After school, I became a
Senatorial advisor with such a passion that, before I knew
it, I was elected Queen. For the most part it was because
of my conviction that reform was possible. I wasn't the
youngest Queen ever elected, but now that I think back on
it, I'm not sure I was old enough. I'm not sure I was
ready.

ANAKIN: The people you served thought you did a good job. I
heard they tried to amend the Constitution so you could
stay in office.

PADMÉ: Popular rule is not democracy, Annie. It gives the
people what they want, not what they need. And, truthfully,
I was relieved when my two terms were up. So were my
parents. They worried about me during the blockade and
couldn't wait for it all to be over. Actually, I was hoping
to have a family by now... My sisters have the most
amazing, wonderful kids... So when the Queen asked me to
serve as Senator, I couldn't refuse her.

ANAKIN: I agree! I think the Republic needs you... I'm glad
you chose to serve. I feel things are going to happen in
our generation that will change the galaxy in profound
ways.

PADMÉ: I think so too.

ANAKIN and PADMÉ walk toward the palace. ARTOO continues to
follow.

--------

I recommend reading the Attack of the Clones script in its entirety and then watching the deleted scenes on the DVD. Anakin and Amidala were meant to have greater depth in their histories and personal lives that was left greatly unexplored in the final cut of the film. What was left was bits and pieces of characterizations. The dialogue in question serves only as brief filler before the three characters reach the palace. Using the traditional rule of filmmaking - that is, that every scene should serve to advance the plot, background information was added to what would have otherwise been quiet scenes of three characters walking along. It's completely transitory.

There is a lot of subtext in the visual side of Star Wars and the themes that are interwoven into the stories, but the dialogue does not contain hidden meaning. It is written in the style of the old Republic serials - very simple and straight to the point. There is no hidden meaning behind this bit of dialogue. It simply is what it is.

 

You did not refute the etymology of the lines. All of the lines contain hidden meaning through their etymology.

How could anyone ever know or believe that about anything, especially when all the proof in the world has been presented to the contrary?

 

The issue isn't whether or not the etymologies you copy-pasted are correct; the issue is whether or not they have any significant relevance.

Unless you can prove that Lucas really chose these words because he was aware of these etymological connections, they're nothing more than a cute coincidence.

For example, I could note that the Hebrew Bible tells of a King named Saul who had fallen from God's grace and went to see a witch in a village of Endor on the eve of battle. The witch conjured the ghost of Samuel, the prophet who had anointed Saul as king, who tells Saul that he will lose the coming battle. In the end Saul falls on his own sword as his army is defeated.

And hey! In Star Wars, Anakin is a great warrior 'anointed by the prophets' in the Chosen One prophecy, who after a visit to Endor is responsible for his own death while his forces are defeated in battle around him.

OBVIOUSLY that's intentional subtext, and irrefutable proof that Lucas is an amazing writer!

 

I have yet to see a refutation of the etymology of the words that George Lucas wrote for this scene in Attack of the Clones and its precise allusion to the events surrounding Padmé in Revenge of the Sith.

 

OF COURSE YOU HAVEN'T. And I'm not going to see any refutation of Endor being the village where Saul saw a witch in the Bible.

But the existence of the etymology is in no way proof that these words were chosen by Lucas for etymological reasons.

And to respond to a previous argument of yours ("There is absolutely no need for this scene's exposition other than to provide exactly the reading I've provided"):

Sure there is. It explains to the audience that Naboo queens have term limits, and why Padme is now a Senator instead of Queen (or a civilian). It also conveys how beloved Amidala is on Naboo, supporting the idea that this is probably the safest place in the galaxy for her to 'hide' from assassins, despite being one of the first places one would look for her.

 

You have not provided a refutation of the etymology of the words that George Lucas wrote for this scene in Attack of the Clones and its precise allusion to the events surrounding Padmé in Revenge of the Sith.

 

And I won't. No one will. Because the etymology is an established fact. This debate is not about whether or not those words have those etymologies, because they DO; it is about your the conclusions you've drawn from said etymology:

Which is a fine interpretation, if you so choose. But your ability to interpret the words in this way is in no way evidence that Lucas intended them as such. Neither is your interpretation something anyone else should feel essential to an understanding of the film, in the way that the expositional face value of the words are.

There's nothing wrong with these sorts of interpretations. It's often interesting to see what people are able to get from films, even if it's something that has nothing to do with the filmmaker's intentions. But ANY film can be subjected to such convoluted interpretations; the fact that you've identified these etymological connections in AotC is no more 'PROOF' of Lucas's being a great artist than a similar etymological interpretation of Batman and Robin would be 'proof' that THAT is a great movie.

The fact is, people find here find more to read into in these movies because they're bigger FANS of these movies. You should see the enormous tracts people put together on the minutiae of bad movies like The Matrix sequels or Terminator 3. The existence of these interpretations does not prove their 'worthiness' as artistic works.

So please, feel free to continue sharing these interpretations of yours. Just be honest about the fact that that's all they are, and stop all the posturing about 'proving' Lucas's artistic genius.

 

Do you really think this is an acceptable way to debate and discuss? Repeating yourself almost verbatim twice in a row? Let me say no. Either discuss this in an open and acceptable manner or don't discuss it at all.

 

Yes, it is acceptable. For instance:

"Strilo, you have not provided a refutation of the etymology of the words that George Lucas wrote for this scene in Attack of the Clones and its precise allusion to the events surrounding Padmé in Revenge of the Sith."

This is true. Now:

Someone, anyone...if you disagree with my interpretation, then refute my interpretation.

What's the point of believing anything at all if you can't accept that things are true without unknowable intent?

 

Let me say this. This is not an acceptable way to discuss things here. If you would like your thread locked, please continue to do this.

 

These are the official rules? OK.

What's the point of believing anything at all if you can't accept that things are true without unknowable intent?

 

JKH, there *is* evidence.

Exhibit A: The etymologies of the names in SW (of ships, planets, characters, etc.). In this case, "Padme" is clearly derived from the Buddhist mantra, "om mani padme hum", which roughly translates to "hail the jewel in the lotus", and "padme" means "lotus". The lotus has great symbolic/metaphysical significance in the East, connected to life and death and the concept of compassion. As reinforcement of this auspicious link, many of Padme character's dresses actually feature a lotus motif, and the character leads a fatefully short life, before giving birth and expiring with the compassionate words, "There's good in him, I know there's still..."

Exhibit B: The films are full of allegorical plot points and metaphorical allusions. In this case, Palpatine, also Darth Sidious, tells Anakin Skywalker, also Darth Vader, that he's "depending on [him] to be the eyes, ears and voice of the Republic" (DVD Chapter 11: The Chancellor's Request), and when Anakin is being assembled into the mechanical carapace/ambulatory life support of Darth Vader, we have an ominous overhead view of Anakin being operated/augmented, in which the seal of the Empire is clearly visible around the operating table, with Anakin at its centre (DVD Chapter 46: Birth and Rebirth). If this is reconciled with the idea that Anakin now sees, hears and speaks via artificial or "unnatural" means, it works as fulfillment of Sidious' earlier words, hidden in the guise of the avuncular and palatable Palpatine and given the more palpable (but false) context of a seemingly benign political injunction, when the real context is much more thematically significant and emotionally poignant.

Now, you can ignore these blatant connections if you like, and pretend that Lucas is just a cad, little or no better than J.J. Abrams or Michael Bay, or you can acknowledge them, granting Lucas the primacy and authorship I think he's earned, and accordingly, it becomes virtually impossible to dismiss the tight interpretation that MisterVader has presented on the grounds that this paradigm "wasn't intended", let alone that it's "extreme" or "crazy".

 

Overthink things much?

 

Kvetching humor hints?