Bringing Balance to the Force: In what way did Anakin fulfill the prophecy?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Protege-of-Thrawn, Feb 2, 2003.

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  1. KenKenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 6
    Starting the second page of this topic with a couple of interesting thoughts.... :)



    Balance. Equilibrium. Stability. The Chosen One. The Dark Side. The Light Side.



    The Force.





    Too many times have I heard in discussions of "balance through the Force" as an equal number or strength of both the Light and the Dark Sides of the Force. Yet, both theories are inevitably wrong.


    The Force is usually seen in two views, either as a "Light" Side or a "Dark" Side, as taken in the movies.

    Sometimes three views, should you take into consideration the "Grey Jedi" or more or less the "middle" of the Light and the Dark.



    Popular misconception, however, is that the Force is only split into these "parts". Yet, the Force as a natural occurence and being is seen in different lights.


    I like to call the Jedi and Sith point of view of the force "Portionism", as they see the Force in "Portions" of Dark and Light.

    Granted it is much more complicated than just that, and both factions (or "Orders" to be more specific") look deeper into the connection with the Force and the affect of the universe as a whole and individually (down to the last midichlorian, eh? Oh wait, shouldn't have said that word! D'oh! :p )


    Then there is the belief in Potentium, as practiced by both Vergere in the NJO and appearing in Greg Bear's "Rogue Planet" in members of the planet Zonama Sekot.

    Potentium, if you do not already know, is the belief that all things are inherintly good, and that "balance" is already achieved by the way of how this acts out.



    However, with the events of the Star Wars Saga as evidence, it is easily seen that both beleifs can seem right, although the "unbalance" in the Force during the first 5 movies (before the proposed bringing of the balance in ROTJ) shows that Portionism and the prophecy of the Chosen One is ultimately "more correct", for lack of a better word.


    Balance will be achieved by this individual as the Dark Side is completely defeated (well, the Dark Side is always available and readily prepared to embrace those who begin to rod its path, however the basis is what is to be destroyed by the Chosen One, which is determined to be Palpatine destroyed by Anakin).



    The Chosen One, simply defined by the CUSWE as:


    The Chosen One

    This individual is prophecied by ancient Jedi legends whose origins have been lost over the millennia. The basic premise of the prophecy is that a being would be born of the Force, seemingly brought into the world simply by the presence of midichlorians. The Chosen One would be born to a mother who was not morally impregnated, a conception enacted by the will of the Force. This being would be incredibly connected to the Force, with a high level of skills even before training. Eventually, the prophecy proclaims that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force throughout the galaxy. This balance, however, could only be achieved after a period in which the Dark Side of the Force grew strong.



    "The basic premise of the prophecy is that a being would be born of the Force, seemingly brought into the world simply by the presence of midichlorians. The Chosen One would be born to a mother who was not morally impregnated, a conception enacted by the will of the Force."


    Anakin, concieved by the midichlorians and born to Shmi, was a will of the Force, as proved by TPM.



    "This being would be incredibly connected to the Force, with a high level of skills even before training."


    Anakin showing skill in Podracing is a quick depiction of how this relates to him, as well as his amazing mechanical skills even in his younger years.



    "This balance, however, could only be achieved after a period in which the Dark Side of the Force grew strong."


    How could the Dark Side grow strong again? I mean, Dooku would eventually die and Darth Maul did, so if there was not another would Palpatine be enough to allow
  2. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    According to Lucas, it is the existance of the Sith that unbalances the Force. Here's my extrapolation on that:

    Evil (with a big "E") is growing stronger in the galaxy, as evidenced by the growing corruption in the Republic and as personified by the Dark Lords of the Sith. As the Sith Lords grow to dominance, the Force falls further out of balance. When the Sith Lords control the galaxy, Evil reigns supreme, and the Force is completely out of balance.

    By destroying the Sith Lords (both internally as Vader and externally as the Emperor), Anakin symbolically overthrows Evil's dominance in the galaxy. When Evil is no longer supreme, the Force is back in balance.
  3. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    I wonder:
    What if bringing the Force back into balance was destroying stability ?

    In a Democracy (the Republic), there are many different opinions that contradict each other and sort of "give life" to this gigantic entity composed of all the species living in the universe, because evrything, every aspect is always in motion, discussed and so on.

    Palpatine and his totalitarian Empire scleroses, makes rigid the universe. Noone can think of his own.

    We know that the Force is Life, and life is always in motion (or it is death).

    So would it make sense to consider that bringing the Force back into balance is the same as set this "congealed" rigid universe free and so let it live again ?
  4. ObidioJuan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2002
    star 3
    I guess nobody read my post.

    GL has said it already, there is no need to hack and slash, geeezzz ;)

    Balance of the force is no evil. Kill the emperor. This is a simple story of the Hero destroying the evil, with a tragic twist.

    I don't see the point of disecting this like KenKenobi did (don't get me wrong, I agree with your discertion (sp?)). But,

    GL has asnwered this in an interview already. I won't post again, as I'm sure all of you can watch the interview in the ANH SE.
  5. OLLIEVARR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 1
    This is an portion of a post I wrote about who the chosen one was, but it fits here.



    The Jedi are STAGNANT! They have lost the freedom to follow the Living Force
    because of their massive set of codes. The Republic is representative of the same
    stagnation. It no longer functions for essentially the same reasons. Both need a
    really good shake up. Anakin does this my serving the Emperor. Job one-- done.
    Then, the the Emperor dominates the scene-- he and his empire become stagnant in
    its EVIL. They must be overthrown. Anakin does this by killing the Emperor. Thus,
    Anakin was "used" by the Force to 1) burn up thousands of years worth of
    stagnation and 2) to eliminated the "burning" catalyst (the Empire).

    But why would the Force use such great EVIL to do this? Well, it's a dualistic force,
    right? Would you expect an impersonal force that is equal parts good and evil to only
    use good to fix the universe? Probably not.



    Here's a related thought. What is Luke ALWAYS told about the Dark Side? That once one starts down the dark path it will forever dominate that one's destiny. What is he told to do about Vader? Go kill him; he cannot be turned back. What does Luke do? Turns his father back. This goes against EVERYTHING Luke was taught about the Dark Side. I think this fact is proof of the Jedi stagnation. They had locked themselves and their ideology so much into "light and dark," "good and evil" that they lost touch with the Living Force. Luke had NOT lost touch, and his experience with his father must have corrected in his mind the errant ideas that the old order Jedi taught him. Thus, Luke can raise up a New Order that does not suffer from this stagnation-- yet. Therefore, even IF Luke forms a new order, balance could STILL be maintained.
  6. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Excellent post OLLIEVARR. I didn't dare to write what you said but think it too.
    The Jedi Order is rigid, like the Empire, in another way.
  7. Darth_Mideon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2003
    I know a lot of peoplw have put forward massive cases on what they think it is. But thought from the moment Mace said the chosen one would bring balance to the force, I thought it was ecuase as DARK LADY MARA said Anakin Started as good and then turned to Evil, and then back again. Whose to day that the spirit we see in ROTJ is completly good again, why can he not be able to use both sides of the force, the light and dark, kinda like the old saying "the Whole, greater then the sum of its parts" to be perfect is in effect a defect the same way it is to be totally imperfect.

    You can look to real life this aswell, i feel i have bad streak in me as much as i know i have a good streak. So i feel i have a balanced persona. Which is what i think Anakin is at the end. i like to think once he moved on to the next plane of existance he became one with both sides of the force.

    This is also demonstrated by how the Jedi being perfect started to lose the hold on everything, like someone said earlier, they were stagnant. The sith on the other hand Sidious / Palpatine mainly was so emersed into the dark side his "over confidence was his weakness" he failed to see that Vader could turm on him.

    but then thats just what i think, i'm sure lucas wil have another way of explaining it far better then me.

    DM.
  8. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    My thoughts run semi-parallel to what has already been covered.

    Yes, he killed Palpatine, and YES, he stopped the evil Jedi Order from prolifieration..

    But consider, he ALSO managed to herald a new (or perhaps the extremely old new again) form of Jedi.

    Luke (and in all possibility Leia) are Jedi unlike that of the Old Republic's Order. They have none of the arrogance, but all of the idealism, goodwill, control, and discipline that their historic brethren seemed to lack.

    Consider Tarkin's words about Anakin Skywalker, someone whom Obi-Wan described with "his powers have made him arrogant", and to which Yoda replied "a growing problem, amongst the Jedi this is."

    The Jedi are dead my friend, you are all that is left of their religion.


    Anakin was the epitome, the climax, the "chosen one" of the old order. So perfectly representative of the old order, his power's were absolute (he topped off Palpatine, no small feat) and so was his weakness to the Dark Side.


    Luke was something new. He did not fail, despite the temptation told to him by his father and Palpatine. He was different, he grew up with a family of sorts, he had time to love, he had time to enjoy the comradrie of friends.

    He was a pilot, a soldier and one with the people: he didn't succumb to the "ivory tower" elitism of the Jedi Order.

    He was the first of the new, and thus he was a TRUE agent of the Force, whilst all those who had come before him were failing in some way, not true avatars of the Force's will, hence they were ALL unbalancing the Force.

    Even Yoda...from a certain point of view. ;)
  9. Darth_Zidious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    Why do people insist on continuing a debate that is settled?

    Lucas: Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. LINK
  10. Yomin_Carr Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2002
    star 4
    Hmmmm... Well Yoda explains balancing the Force in one of the Tales comics...

    He takes two grains of salt and says "The Sith, these are." Then next to the two, he puts ten thousand grains of salt. "The Jedi, these are." Then he says something like 'Like a great wind come the Sith, changing everything." He then wipes the 'Jedi' off the table, and remains with only two grains. 'Now, balanced.'

    That's basically what I think balancing the Force means. However, I don't see why the Force didn't just 'create' more Sith, and have them grow to the size of the Jedi Order, thus, balancing the Force. Surely it would be easier to find 10,000 Force sensitives than to kill 10,000 Jedi under the protection of a Republic?

    The EU shows how the Sith rose again and again through the years that the Republic existed. My theory is that it put too much of a strain on the Force to bear so many Force users, so it had to balance the Force by killing 10,000 Jedi, rather than doubling the number of Force users in the galaxy. Perhaps with so many midichlorians accessing the Force, the Force became drained?

    But maybe killing all of the Jedi wasn't all Anakin was supposed to do, or even what he was supposed to do. For at the end of ROTJ, Vader kills Palpatine, bringing the Force into balance, with a Darksider and a Lightsider remaining (I believe Vader killed Palpatine in anger, and wasn't redeemed until a few minutes after he killed Palps). Thus, he balanced it...

    *continues rambling on for a few more minutes until sinking into a stupor*
  11. dark_jedi666 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    I feel that when Vader turned back to the light and killed Palpatine, that is when he brought balance back to the Force. Even when there were two Jedi and two Sith the Force was not in balance as the Sith were stronger. The death of Palpatine, brought the Force back into balance in the way that I feel Lucas meant.
  12. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    I like that analogy that you posted up there Yomin, the Sith (Palpatine and Vader) wipe out the Jedi until only two remain (Yoda and Obi Wan).

    I've been reading through a few other threads and now I'm wondering if it wasn't just an imbalance in the Light and Dark Sides of the force but in the Living and Unifying aspects of the Force as well (as mentioned in the TPM novelisation).

    If we look at it like that, I think that Qui-Gon and Maul were more or less the last Force practioners who worked solely around the Living Force, using it in the moment for immediate results. All that was left after they cancelled each other out in TPM was a group of people constantly looking to the future for guidance by using the Unifying side of the Force. The Dark Side obviously had the ability make it difficualt to see the future clearly which crippled the Jedi and made it easier for the Sith to gain ascendence.

    With Luke, we have a balance in the Unifying (ie: he can see the future pretty clearly when he see's Han/Leia at Cloud City) and the Living Force (he has an empathy for those around him and can use the Force to help them and himself). In that way, I guess Luke isthe balance. Anakin did bring balance to the Force by fathering Luke.

    ;)
  13. DarthSithLord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2001
    star 4
    I believe he killed Vader inside of him killing One Sith Lord, so thats 1 down, 1 to go... 1 final Sith as well... that was Palatine.... He and Palaptine killed each other.

    He fullfilled the Prohesy by killing both of the Sith... and banishing them from the whole force.
  14. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    "Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
    --George Lucas
  15. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    I agree with OLLIEVARR. The prophecy was to bring balance to the force, not to kill all the sith. I think the prophecy was in 2 parts. The first was to destroy the Jedi order, second was to destroy the sith. Only then will both sides of the force be equal due to nobody being left except luke. Luke, is kind of close to the middle leaning towards the lightside, he was tempted by the darkside and because of that he allows the force to start over with as close to balance that it has been in for 1000's of years.
  16. Sara_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 7
    I've always held the idea that Anakin was the Balance himself. Darth Vader was a living sense of everything that was evil, but Luke still could sense the goodness in him, which I felt Obi-Wan believed was impossible. That you can't be both good and evil. But I think Anakin was the perfect Balance of both worlds.

    As for Anakin fulfilling the prophecy, I think he did that when he became Darth Vader, and helped the Sith gain power against the Jedi. It brought the Dark Side equal Balance by the Dark Side (Sith) rising and meeting the Light Side. (Jedi)
  17. Cheebs Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2003
    He was the chosen one. He brought balance from the light side to the dark side then killed Palpy getting rid of the sith for good.
  18. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    Here is a different theory. Maybe Anakin balanced the force by destroying the lightside and darkside followings, this opened the door for Luke (who I beleive is the most neutral of the Jedi). Maybe the force wants Jedi that do not disregard the darkside or the lightside of the force. Maybe true balance in the force means that Jedi learn all aspects of the force. Just like the Yin-Yang, it needs both halves to be complete.
  19. MrMan77 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    In the PT there are thousands (?) of Jedi Masters and apprentices and one sith master and one sith apprentice. This is unbalanced. Anakin kills all the Jedi except for Obi-Wan and his former master, Yoda. Therefore there is one Sith Master and one Sith Lord, and one Jedi Master and one Jedi Knight...a balance in the force. When Luke essentially becomes Obi-Wan's padawan in ANH the force is again unbalanced for there is now three Jedi (Yoda/Obi/Luke) and two Sith (Palp/Vader). Anakin again balances this out by killing Obi-Wan, so there are two sith and two Jedi. In ROTJ, Yoda dies making the count two sith and one Jedi...again the force is unbalanced. Anakin balances the force one last time when he kills palpatine. After palpatine's death there is one Jedi Knight (Luke) and one Sith Lord (Vader). Balance finally and definately brought and the prophecy fufilled Anakin returns to the force.

    The prophecy doesn't pan out the way the council forsaw it, but it does just the same.
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Anakin controlls the Force itself, though unconsciously.


    His connection to it - his origins - cause the Force to follow him in whichever side he leans to. In TPM, Anakin is untrained. Totally good. Likewise, the Force was basically "light". In AotC, Anakin slips closer to the dark side. The galaxy itself becomes a darker place, and those who use the light side diminish in power.


    In RotJ, Luke has come back into Vader's life, Anakin has reawakened, and the Force "lightens up" a bit. ;) The Emperor's powers begin to diminish. ("I have felt [Luke], my master." - Vader "Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader" -Palpatine)


    When Anakin destroys Palpatine, and turns back to the light side, the anchor in the Force caused by Anakin dissolves, and the Force goes back into balance.


    Just one of my theories. :)
  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Here's some old Prophecy material.

    "LUKE STARKILLER a short, chubby boy about eighteen years old. He
    is a son of the Starkiller. Luke might be the subject of the
    prophecy -- "...And in the time of greatest despair there shall
    come a savior, and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUNS."
    (Journal of the Whills, 3:127) A Seer tells him, "Your fate is
    clouded...but the will of the force has set your path. The man
    you seek you'll find inside (Solo); the one who needs you, you'll
    find in time (Deak). Fear not, for the "son of the suns" will
    free us all." "The son of the suns" is the last of the Starkiller
    line, whom the seers have said would bring down the Empire. (This
    is Luke, a son born under the twin suns.) Raised on Utapau by the
    Lars family, Luke lived with them and his mother until she died."


    Now before you go saying "I knew Luke was the chosen one!", do realize that in this early draft, Leia is the Lars' daughter and in love with Luke, Solo is a headstrong cabin boy who's only a few years older than Luke, Luke's father is Deak Starkiller, and Darth Vader may or may not have been killed in the Battle of Yavin.

    Other than that, this is the most I've ever seen printed about the Prophecy, so make of it what you will. :)
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