Bringing balance to the force

Discussion in 'Milwaukee, WI' started by Mace_Master, May 23, 2002.

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  1. Mace_Master Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Okay, here's something I have been wondering about for quite a while. Yoda and Mace keep talking about a prophecy of an individual who will bring balance to the force, like it's a good thing.

    Yet, from what I understand of religions that have the concept of balance, the general focus on a thoguht similar to yin/yen, which is that for every good, there needs to be an equal evil to balance out. Holding along that theory, since the sith were believed to be non-existent, and thus only good is present, why would they look forward to someone bringing balance (evil) to the force?

    I must be missing something here.
  2. bwing53 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    I don't think they neccessarily think it's a good thing. If you recall, they were trying to convince Qui Gon that the boy wasn't to be trained in TPM. It may be that they know that the "evil" half of the balance WILL come to fruition at some poiint, but that they must allow it to do so. They may have known all along that Anakin was indeed the chosen one, but they were attempting to stall this inevitable conclusion that you have suggested. They are Jedi masters, so its quite possible they know something about this destiny that we don't.
  3. jedisister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2001
    star 3
    Ok, if this theory is accurate, which it does make sense to me but, why then would Qui-Gon be so addiment in bringing Anakin in? He was a bit of a rebel, but he still sought for the greater good and was faithful to his calling as a jedi. If this relization was recognized by the masters, I would think Qui-Gon would have realized that as well and therefore wouldn't have wanted the "darkside" balance to come about. Know what I mean?
  4. bwing53 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    True; I see your argument, and its hard to defend against that. My only rebuttal can be that either Qui Gon wasn't clear on what "bringing balance to the force" meant, or he intended to manipulate Anakin in such a way so as to cheat the dark side. That makes no sense. Hold on, how about this--The jedi council fears what Anakin can become, yet Qui Gon's stubbornness makes them consider that maybe, just maybe, this kid can somehow become the strongest ally they have in defeating the remaining sith. I get the feeling (having seen AOTC twice now) that they STILL are awfully wary of his potential, right from the beginning of the movie. Even though Obi Wan has made strides with him, I think they sense something within him; they just can't put their finger on it or bring themselves to condemn him in any way.

    Does any of this make sense? Pleas, someone take this burden from me!
  5. jedisister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2001
    star 3
    Actually, both of those possiblities "work". It is hard to say and since we really DON'T know exactly what the prophecy means and HOW it means, or what it is exactly, its hard to figure out. Although, having seen the movie and started reading the book, I think the perspective on the balance being a darkside balance makes sense and as mentioned, the masters knew this. So, then the question is why the heck would they take that risk?!?! Sure its possible that they hope he is strong enough to overcome the darkside and who knows maybe he could have if he didn't seek Palpy's advice or have his mother brutalized and then die in his arms, but still, why take such a tremedously huge risk knowing the prophesy will more than likely come true, since "true"(to the SW galaxy that is) prophecies have away of doing that.
  6. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    *sigh*

    This thread is wrong for this forum. I'm really getting frustrated with these redundant threads cropping up all the time, and I know you're all getting equally frustrated with me. But that's just tough shizite.

    AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

    TAKE THIS STUFF TO THE PUBLIC FORUMS!!!
  7. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    Why? I don't read the public forums. 100% of my time in Jedi Council is in the Milwaukee forum. I don't even pause to look at anything else.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, just stating facts.

    Jeff
  8. solo414 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 4
    I find that the regular JC forums move so quick you have to check in almost every hour if not more. :(

    This forum has people I know and like and it doesn't move at lightspeed. I don't try to make trouble, Tom. I just feel more comfortable here, if that makes sense. :)
  9. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
  10. bwing53 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    Very amusing, My apologies--Just following the lead here. Sorry!
  11. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    I agree with Jeff.

    In looking at other official forums (Chicago, Cinci, Indy) there are plenty of threads that are SW specific.

    Edit: I will, however, admit that this discusion really belongs in the exisiting SW reactions thread.
  12. The4Fetts Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    I agree with Bishop76. I also spend 100% of my time on the Milwaukee forum.
  13. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    No, it doesn't belong in the Reactions thread.
  14. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    Christ Tom - back off already.
  15. jedisister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2001
    star 3
    Ok, back to the original topic, bwing if you still look at this thread, I'd like your take on what I mentioned above, why would the masters take the risk?(look up a few post to read my thopughts on that question or leading to that question)Or anyone else give your thoughts.
  16. TheWampas1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 4
    I think, once again, we should all take our lessons from the ultimate in essays on humanity, and that of course is, the Simpsons. When Homer wished for world peace, everyone got rid of their weapons, and the planet was subsequently raided by aliens and conquered. Yoda and Mace perhaps don't understand what balance means. Maybe they think that it will mean "no dark side" because the dark side is diminishing their power, and since they believe the Force is a tool for good, that balancing it will be good. When in fact, balancing the Force means, "Two dark all the time, alright, but now, only two light Jedi too." Hence, Obi Wan and Yoda. Obi Wan is killed, and Luke becomes a Jedi. I don't think Yoda and Mace knew balance would include the slaughter of all their bowling team. Anakin does bring balance, but it's a very bad way to go about it.

    Marcy had a pizza analogy that was rather... involved. It sounded simpler than the Benz Chrysler merger, only... tasty. I've reduced the analogy to this:

    Dark side and Light side order a pizza (in times of war in ancient cultures, frequently they took off certain holidays, granted they didn't get together over pizza, but follow along). Dark side wants anchovies on their half, because they are evil and so are anchovies and all other tiny, salty, hairy (Marcy says they are hairy) fish. The light side orders mushrooms on their half. You've heard Yoda talk, he's had a mushroom or two. Now, they think that when Anakin comes along, he's going to put mushrooms on the darkside, and anchovies on the light side. WRONG little green man. He's going to eat the anchovies on the dark side, the mushrooms on the light, and everyone gets a cheese pizza. Balanced, but, not quite like they expected.

    I think it's sort of like going to see someone about balancing your tires. If you go to Jiffy Lube, they'll probably inflate the tires to the proper limit. If you go to a guy named "Manny the blade" he'll pop your tires, hence, balancing them. So, what have we learned? Yoda and Mace think that with the monkey paw, young Anakin will wish for a nice pizza with both toppings, but they don't know he's going to turn into Manny the Blade, where he will eat all the pizza, pop their tires, and force them to order Chinese. Balance.

    Dwayne
  17. Zepo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    Wanpas1138 (Dwayne),

    That analogy is probably the most interesting use of pizza to describe Star Wars ever.

    My hat is off to you, Master...

    :) :)
  18. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    I don't know whats more disturbing - the pizza post itself or the fact that it makes sense to me.

    It would be interesting to know who made the prophecy and in what context. I'm sure that would clear up some issues.
  19. jedisister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2001
    star 3
    Yikes!!! That was scary!! LOL though, dfinately a different perspective on the balancing act!! I think I got it?!

    I agree w/you, Mauler, Knowing who spoke the prophecy and what the prophecy actually says,and as you said, what context it was in, would help. All we know of this prophecy is that there is a chosen one to bring balance. IMO, that's extremely vague, I'd think that there would be more to it than just that.
  20. solo414 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 4
    That is the best explination I have EVER heard! So simple and easy...not to mention that I'm now going to order a pizza for my lunch/dinner. I'm going to steal that... hope you don't mind. :D GOOD JOB!
  21. TheWampas1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 4
    It was Marcy's analogy to begin with, and I think it works. I don't know why it makes sense, but if you've ever tried to order a pizza where one person likes black olives and one doesn't because they look like frog eyes, you can feel the epic struggle of dark and light.

    Truth be told, it was meant to be funny, but, I think descriptive too. Pizza once again brings the world together.

    Dwayne
  22. SySnootles Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2002
    star 3
    Frogs eyes? What kind of frogs have you been exposed to? Those would be huge eyes!!

    Brava to Marcy, who has made understandable and digestable (pun intended) a rather oblique concept. I love analogies for explaining bizarre theories. Putting things into different a perspective almost always helps others to understand them. It's something of a game for me to figure out what's the best analogy for explaining a concept to someone who doesn't understand it in it's basic form. (I've found when explaining computer systems to others, a '70's high-fi stereo analogy works well. There is a receiver (CPU), tape deck (floppy drive), record player (CD-ROM drive), etc...)

    On to the topic -- It is necessary to know more about the specifics of the prophecy in order to understand it. Who said it, when, in what form, and what was the exact wording. Take an example from the Bible. In the Book of Revelations, it says something about the earth opening up and a giant beast with multiple heads will reign over the earth for a period of time (destroying the earth as we know it) before it is smoted and all the righteous are "saved." Does anyone believe this to be taken literally? I sure as heck don't. I'm not even sure how to interpret this. (I have thoughts on the BofR myself, but that's neither here nor there. They just go to show how I'm a really baaaaad Christian.) Maybe it's a reference to Rush Limbaugh and he was smoted deaf. Yay!

    My wandering point is this: Prophecies are almost always very vague, symbolic, and mean different things to different people. A favorite quote of mine is "We see what our knowledge is telling us we are seeing." That makes interpretations very personal. I know a car with dark smoke billowing from the rear is most likely burning oil. Someone who doesn't know that might assume the car is on fire, or a 007 get-away ploy. Maybe some hot shot on the Council gave his interpretation about the balance prophecy years ago, and it just stuck. (Kinda like King James and his version of the Bible. Bad Christian!) Maybe something had been changed in a translation. Who knows? But it sure is fun to speculate.
  23. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    I think it's the pizza/inflation combo that's really genius.
  24. Zepo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    Though Yoda and the rest of the Jedi identify Anakin as the person that brings balance to the force, they have misidentified that person. It is not Anakin...

    It is Luke.

    That's why Yoda says "there is another" in ESB" (refering to leia if Luke fails in that role), and why "Star Wars" was retitled "A New Hope."

    Anakin is their father, though, and as such he must bear children who bring balance to the force. And as Yoda can see the future ("Hard to see it is.") perhaps he knows not to warn away Padme from the (Tusken) babykiller...

    (Makes Anakin sound a lot worse doesn't it...)

    Makes one think.
  25. Auraveda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 4
    Good analogy, make me hungry though.

    Mmmmmmm.... pizza!
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