Bush declares that fetus is a 'child' (New Abortion Debate Thread)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by PadmeSkywalker, Feb 1, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    Womberty, you can call me whatever you like.

    You do not believe a woman should be able to choose whether to continue an unwanted pregnancy or not. Enforced pregnancy is anti-choice, clearly.

    Abortion right supporters do not advocate mandatory abortion, so is that anti-life?

    The two sides want different things, true, but are not mirror opposites of each other.
  2. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Enforced pregnancy is anti-choice, clearly.

    You have to make a choice to do that certain thing in which you become pregnant. Don't want to deal with the consequences, don't do the deed.
  3. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    No birth control is 100% effective. If a woman wants only two children her entire life, does it follow that she should have sex only twice?


    (We have two kids. Should I tell my husband that our sex life is over now?)
  4. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Womberty, you can call me whatever you like.

    I call you what you choose to be called. I would prefer that you call me "anti-abortion" rather than "anti-choice" because in reality, I think that women do have rights to certain choices, but have been duped into believing that they are entitled to more choices than are rightfully theirs.


    Enforced pregnancy is anti-choice, clearly.

    I'm not forcing anyone to become pregnant. "Forcing" someone not to abort is the same to me as "forcing" someone not to throw their newborn in the trash.


    No birth control is 100% effective.

    They come pretty close these days. If both men and women took proper precautions, how many unwanted pregnancies do you suppose would result?


    If a woman wants only two children her entire life, does it follow that she should have sex only twice?

    If you're sure that you don't want to have any more children, there are procedures to ensure that you won't.


    (We have two kids. Should I tell my husband that our sex life is over now?)

    How long have you been using birth control to prevent a third child? How long has it been working for you?

    Are you telling me that if you became pregnant again, you would abort the child simply because you think that two children is your ideal number or the maximum you can handle? I find that hard to understand, especially since you or your husband could go through a simple (simpler for the man, as I understand it ;) ) procedure to prevent you from ever becoming pregnant again. Why would you still be taking your chances with birth control, since you're not confident in its effectiveness?

    And out of curiosity... If you became pregnant again, would you tell your husband? Or isn't it any of his business, since it's "your body"?
  5. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    "So go jump off a balcony" [face_laugh]
    [face_laugh] WAHHHOHOO! [face_laugh] HEHEEHEHE! [face_laugh] HAHAHA! [face_laugh]
  6. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    The thing about abortion is that it has become too polarized. Both sides have invested too much in this topic to come to the table and forge a bargain and that's a shame.
  7. Mike_Mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 2
    I haven't been able to read every page on this thread, just the first few, and the current one, but would like to join in on the debate.

    I feel that my perspective is unique because I am a Democrat who does NOT support abortion. This is a very difficult, and personal issue, and I sometimes feel that our government shouldn't interfere. Perhaps it is not their role to interfere? But then I start thinking about my own beliefs- I truly believe that abortion is murder. I was raised as a catholic-- perhaps that has something to do with it?

    For a long time I thought that I was pro-choice, until I was personally confronted with the issue. My first girlfriend was late one month while we were dating. Perhaps we shouldn't have been having sex at such a young age, but I was young and foolish (and curious) at the time. I had just started my college career. She made it very clear to me that if she were pregnant, she would have an abortion (and she was a republican!) She refused to give up her college career in order to take care of baby. It was at this point that my perspective changed forever. I was ready to put off college for a year or two. I made a mistake, and was willing to accept the consequences for my actions in order to raise MY child! Killing MY child was completely out of the question! This argument lead to our breakup. In the end, she was never pregnant, just very late.

    I remember thinking, "how could my ex girlfriend have been so selfish? Yes, it was her body, but it was also my child as much as it was hers! It's not my fault that woman are forced to carry the baby to term- that's evolution (or nature, or God, etc). I think that woman use this argument as an escape from the truth. "It's my body, and I have the right to choose" just doesn't work. You also chose to have sex, and abortion should NOT under any circumstances be viewed as a form of birth control. Now don't get me wrong, I support abortion under extreme circumstances- such as when the mother's life is at risk. I'm not radical or crazy.

    I don't understand how some woman can be so selfish. I know that I will no doubt be attacked by several women in this forum for my comments. However, I would like to add this: If I were born a woman, and if I were to get pregnant, I would NEVER be able to live with myself if I chose to kill my unborn child simply because "I wasn't ready to have a kid" or that "it would get in the way of my life". I would accept the fact that I chose to have sex, making this baby possible. If I didn't want the child, I would at least carry it to term, and then give it up for adoption. That way that person would have the same shot at life that I (or anyone else in this forum) had at life.
  8. Cailina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 4
    MM Just so you know most of the pro-choicers here do not personally support abortion and, if confronted with an unplanned pregnancy, would not have one(myself included). Personally, I do not believe that it is a person with constitutional rights from conception therefor I do not think that outlawing abortion would be constitutional.

    Just out of curiosity-- you mention extreme circumstances...do you include rape in your list of cases when you would allow an abortion?
  9. Mike_Mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 2
    That is a tough question Cailina. Rape is a terrible crime that is wrong, and that I would never wish upon anybody. But I suppose that I am stubborn in my beliefs. My gut feeling tells me that abortion is wrong. Any child that was conceived because of rape is innocent. Does that child deserve to die? This is what makes this topic SO difficult. In a perfect world family and religion (or faith- I'm not a religious fanatic) would help people make the right choice when faced with an unwanted pregnancy. But this is not a perfect world, so perhaps our government needs to interfere?

    As much as I dislike abortion, I'm afraid that making it illegal won't change things as much as many pro-lifers would like to believe. If a woman wants an abortion, she will find a way to get it done-- perhaps by going to another country, or having it done illegally, which would be VERY dangerous. Murder is illegal, yet people still kill other people. Abortion won't stop because the government makes it illegal. If you all studied your US history, you will remember that the US once tried to make alchohol illegal. It didn't work- people still found a way to drink. I think we need to place more emphasis on funding the education of birth control, and abortion alternatives. Rather than spending money fighting abortions, we should spend it building new homes for orphans so that unwanted children can be adopted and cared for. They deserve a chance at life!

    That's where I stand as a Democrat. I don't think that making abortion illegal will solve all of our problems. This is where I disagree with the Republicans. We should focus on alternatives. As a person though, I can't accept abortion as a right, or alternative to birth control, because I morally believe that killing is wrong.
  10. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think that making abortion illegal will solve all of our problems.

    I don't think it will, either. As you said, outlawing murder doesn't prevent all murders. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal. I think that abortion should be outlawed -- hopefully that would serve as a wakeup call to anyone who thought they could rely on it to get out of an unwanted pregnancy -- but we should also promote education on safe sex and the proper use of birth control.
  11. Jedi_Ellejandra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2001
    star 1
    If you were to 'outlaw' abortion, there are many who, because of fear of the law, will have a baby whether they want it or not. There are also many who will take desperate measures to make sure this baby inside them is never born for whatever reasons they may have.

    Someone mentioned at the beginning of this thread that he's glad that his mother didn't exercise the 'right to choose'. His mother DID exercise her right to choose! She chose to have her baby boy and raise him to be a productive member of society. You have to remember here that pro-choice ISN'T pro-abortion.

    As for men having a say in a pregnancy deemed 'unwanted' by a woman... Until men can get pregnant by accident and be faced with a life changing decision, no, I don't think that they're opinion should necessarily have anything to do with a woman's choice. If the woman wants to listen to her partner's opinion, then great! Maybe he'll promise to stay with her if she has it, maybe he'll even be in the delivery room, and maybe he'll even marry her! ...
    Then again, maybe he'll feel the weight of responsiblility and want out. Maybe he'll convince her to keep the baby and then take off. There's nothing wrong with either of those choices, IF it was the woman's choice to have her baby in the first place. If they have a good relationship, he should understand, accept and support his partner's decision no matter what.

    Just because my partner wants kids and I'd rather have my tubes tied this instant if I could, doesn't mean that I should feel obligated to have babies if I don't want them. It is MY right to choose to be pregnant or not. Just as it is his right to choose to stay with me or not. He knows I will never want kids just as well has he knows that if I got pregnant by accident, I would never keep it. I have my reasons, and we've discussed them.

    We all have to make choices.

    --Avy

    This is something I feel strongly about and I have tried to get my point across as easily as I can. I hope it makes sense.. :)
  12. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Mike, your experience shouldn't deter you from the pro-life attitude. Like Cailina said, just because you oppose abortion doesn't mean you aren't pro-choice. Perhaps the issue of father's rights in abortion is neglected, but I garuntee you that the percentage of MEN whose women get abortions against their express wishes is very small.



  13. Mike_Mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 2
    Jedi Ellejandra: I understand your feelings regarding this matter, but as I said, killing is wrong. You would be willing to KILL your child simply because having it would be a 9 month "inconveniance". This reminds me of nearly any day-time soap opera on television. The characters are always killing each other off if they step on each other's shoes or get in each other's way. That is selfish, and no different than abortion, except that an unborn baby is defenseless.

    You are taking a life simply because it might interfere with your own. Abortion is NOT a form of birth control. If you don't want to get pregnant, then DON'T HAVE SEX. That is a choice too. As I said before, if the guy you're dating bolts, he is obviously a loser. However, you don't have to kill an innocent life form simply because you don't want to take care of it. There is always the ADOPTION option.

    I also stated that if I had been born a woman, I would feel no different about this. If I make the "choice" to have sex, than I should also be responsible for that decision. It's a far easier decision to live with, IMHO, than murder. Just because woman are the ones who carry the child, doesn't mean that it is their baby alone.

    I would also like to know why women feel that because they are the ones carrying the baby to term, they are justified in deciding whether or not to kill it? The whole "it's my body" argument doesn't work. It was also your body that got naked with a guy and had sex with him. If I choose to have sex, I take on the full responsibility that comes with it. Maybe women should decide before having sex with someone if that person will be responsible or not? Why take it out on an innocent life form?

    I don't mean to preach to you, but I also feel very strongly about this.

    Obi-Wan: Actually, I can't really consider myself to be Pro-Choice or Pro-Life. I think both sides are rather extreme and sometimes too radical for me. I don't take the Pro-Life stand of making abortion illegal, but I also can't accept the Pro-Choice stand because it is far too easy. I believe that abortion is wrong though-- that is what my gut is telling me. However, I'm still not sure how the government should act regarding this issue.
  14. Jedi_Ellejandra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2001
    star 1
    Mike, I can appreciate what you've said.

    I did think that this thread was just about abortion. Adoption is always an option, of course, but there are lots of wanted babies who quickly turn into unwanted toddlers, and no one is going to want to adopt an already-developing youth ot teenager. In my opinion, it's just as bad to have an abortion as it is to give it up for adoption. These reasons are part of the path I've chosen to follow and since this isn't a religious thing...

    If you have a baby and wipe your hands of it by giving it up for adoption, then how do you know what kind of life that child will have? Maybe it will find a nice family to live with and maybe it won't. Maybe it'll be stuck in the system for years and have a terrible life. Who knows. With abortion, that life can have another chance in another body...

    That's another debate entirely, and this debate isn't about adoption.

    --Avy
  15. Mike_Mothma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 2
    Well, if your religious beliefs dictate that the aborted baby would have another chance at life through another body- that's one thing. I won't try and change your religious beliefs, because I feel that they are important. However, religion is based on faith. We don't know for sure that an aborted baby would have another chance at life- it's just a religious theory. What if this was NOT the case? That baby would never EVER have another chance at life.

    If a child is adopted, the issue isn't whether or not he or she will have a good life. The fact is that good or bad, that child has a chance to live. A chance to do with his or her life whatever they please. It is not our choice to take that away from the child. Your logic leads us into playing the role of God, by determining who should live, and who should die (aka be aborted).
  16. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Mike_Mothma . . . cool to see we agree :)

    Like you, I don't like the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice labels . . . if you think about it, neither accurately reflects the true nature of the disagreement.

    The single point we MUST all agree for a successful debate is that murder is wrong.
    To summarily end someone's life, or subject them to restricted conditions, without due process of law should not be tolerated in our society.

    So, a simple question: If you did believe that a fetus is a human being, would you still condone abortion?

    MM got it dead on when he said that, ultimately, a woman has a choice. No matter the safeguards and precautions you use, you are responsible for the consequences of any action that you willfully participate in.
    I know it's tempting, but please don't bring up cases of rape just yet. That's something to decide upon if we have found a fetus to be a human being. Right now, it just clouds the issue.
  17. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Until men can get pregnant by accident and be faced with a life changing decision, no, I don't think that they're opinion should necessarily have anything to do with a woman's choice.

    Every time a woman gets pregnant, there's a man somewhere that got pregnant with her. She has the power to force that man to become a father, holding him responsible for that child's welfare through child support at least (if he does not want or cannot get custody).

    You wouldn't dare allow a man to make the decision to abort a child, and you won't allow him the decision to keep it, either -- instead, you're giving that choice entirely to the woman. Both the man and the woman made the decision to have sex, and most likely (except in very rare cases, I would think) did not decide to prevent the pregnancy.


    It is MY right to choose to be pregnant or not.

    Yes! And your partner has the same choice. But neither of you have the right to terminate a child's life if you fail to choose to prevent a pregnancy.


    Perhaps the issue of father's rights in abortion is neglected, but I garuntee you that the percentage of MEN whose women get abortions against their express wishes is very small.

    There are probably many, many cases when the men have no idea that the woman was ever pregnant.


    With abortion, that life can have another chance in another body...

    If a mother tosses her newborn in the dumpster, does that life get another chance? If so, why should that be illegal? If not, at one point is that life "committed" to that body? I find it extremely hard to believe that this happens at the precise moment that the baby exits the womb.
  18. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Jedi_Ellejandra
    "Until men can get pregnant by accident and be faced with a life changing decision, no, I don't think that they're opinion should necessarily have anything to do with a woman's choice. "

    You don't think pregnancy causes the male partner to face a life changing decision? I think your being a bit self-centered.

    "If the woman wants to listen to her partner's opinion, then great!"

    Oh, how magnanimous of you. I really hope this doesn't accurately reflect your attitude towards men. If it does, it's pretty disgusting.
  19. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    This may not be entirely on topic, but after seeing the way the feminist organizations have started trying to defend the woman who drowned her five kids in a bath tub, I've come to the conclusion that feminism is primarliy about giving women the right to kill their children. Abortion was just the first step, now on to making it legal after they're born.
  20. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    Yes, feminism is really about allowing women to kill children. We even have a secret handshake on it.
  21. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    OK, no blasters, that's fine, but I hope you aren't one who accuses pro-life men of having a secret handshake with an evil agenda to control women and keep them in their place. Because that is equally as ludicrous.

    And by the way, do you defend Yates, or were you only defending feminism?
  22. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    You won't find me anywhere on the net accusing men of some "conspiracy". I simply met what I think is a ridiculous theory ("I've come to the conclusion that feminism is primarily about giving women the right to kill their children) with an equally ridiculous response.

    "I've come to the conclusion that feminism is primarily about giving women the right to kill their children."

    What unadulterated nonsense!

    As far as Yates goes, I'll leave that for another thread, since it is most decidedly off topic.

  23. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    no blasters!
    OK, just checking :). Unadulterated nonsense comes from all sides. I wouldn't want us to have to battle it out in Dungaroo court :p.

    I understand where AJA is coming from, but I agree we have to be careful painting with such a broad brush.
  24. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    The chance to live. Well, perhaps we should be more concerned with the millions of starving babies in foreign countries if we actually cared. Maybe we should spend less money blowing up people and more money distributing the totally un-equal distribution of wealth in the world. Maybe you should all give up your nice houses and televisions and computers so children in third world countries can eat. We live in a paradise and our comforts are met beyond expectation, yet we aren't willing to give it up to help the rest of the world. We would all rather sit here on a pile of money than give up all but what we need to live to the rest of the world so that they may have better lives. Perhaps we should get rid of the death penalty because innocent lives are lost every year.

    Pro-life, in my opinion, is such a subjective and at times hypocritical stance. None of you really seem to care about the millions of already alive babies in the world, you seem to harp on the fact that a mother is an irresponsible slut who wants abortions against the will of all these fathers out there who SO WANT to stay and take care of the child. The hypocrasy makes me sick. None of you actually want the responsibilty of PAYING for these children with your tax dollars, you just want to pass the back and then rest comfortably with your enhanced sense of morality.

    Or is it just American "unborn fetuses" that you care so much about saving? All right, how can I come on when I know I'm just as guilty as the rest of you for not caring? Well, I admit, that I don't really care about the starving suffering world. I admit it, I don't care one bit. I'd like to, in theory I feel bad and that they should have it better, yet I admit, that I don't really care because "out of sight, out of mind." But at least I admit I don't care, rather than pretending to from an ivory tower.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.