FF:VIC Bush's intentions now clear: Or why PoT doesn't want to be in this country anymore.

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Protege-of-Thrawn, Mar 18, 2003.

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  1. HawkNC Former RSA: Oceania

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 6
    I'm all for intelligent discussion about the war, but if I don't start seeing some of it from BOTH sides I'm going to have to lock this thread.
  2. MarvinTheMartian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 5
    Please don't close this thread! I'm enjoying PoT's lexical exploits ;)

    What a silly poster.

    Obviously Right Wing propaganda. I demand it be smited from the record.

    And demand to know why this...thing, is still posting in my thread after being asked to leave? Is this not the essence of trolling Mr. RSA?


    Hehehe :D

    Here is some more propaganda for your amusemant:

    [image=http://idisk.mac.com/kfiralfia/Public/protest_warrior/images/posters/sign_04.jpg]

    [image=http://idisk.mac.com/kfiralfia/Public/protest_warrior/images/posters/sign_19.jpg]
  3. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    If they are the sum and total of your arguements Marv, I feel sorry for your side of the ledger: it's obviously stretched thin.

    Care to comment on the liberated people's joy now they can't go out on the streets for fear of vigalante gangs and viscious social anarchy?

    I'm sure they are happy to be out from under the "heavy boot of oppression" Saddam was crushing them with before those nice ol' Coallition troops wandered in eh?
  4. MarvinTheMartian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 5
    Oh yes, I am absolutely that all those Iraqis celebrating on the streets of Baghdad would MUCH prefer to be living under a communist dictatorship. Screw democracy! Screw freedom!

    Hmmm...but then again, isn't democracy a bourgeois plot anyway?
  5. HawkNC Former RSA: Oceania

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 6
    I wasn't aware Saddam followed Marxism...
  6. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    Next Iran and Syria!

    I love it
  7. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    Oh don't worry Hawk, the error was not your own. Marv was simply following the tired yet formulaic approach of the Right by labelling all dissent as in some way related to Communism. Plays into ingrained community fears with regard to Socialism or colloquially, "those damn Reds".

    And in the end, aren't all Lefties Stalinists at heart?

    Those celebrations on the street you refer to (the isolated handfuls of them mainly concentrated in Saddam City) are nothing compared to the vigalantism and crime rampant on the streets. Those not dead from Imperialist Bombings and warfare are hiding at home or in their stores with guns ready to defend themselves, their property and family, or they are the criminals running the streets rampant now without any effective administration from the former government or from the "liberating" forces.

    Pathetic on behalf of the Americans. Shame I say, Shame on their entire Administration.
  8. MarvinTheMartian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 5
    Hawk, the Baath Party of which Saddam Hussein is the head has its foundations in socialism. You could be forgiven for not knowing that, because all socialist governemnts have an inherent tendency to became authoritarian dictatorships given the chance, just like every other socialist governemnt in the world: USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China...to name but a few.

    PoT, the Coalition has been in Baghdad for less than a week. It is highly unrealistic of you to expect the US to maintain Law and Order when they are still trying to achieve their primary objective, which is winning the war (which is close, but not finished yet). The very fact that so much has been accomplished in three weeks (I thought we would be at our current stage in about three months) is credit to the work of the Americans, particularly to the planning of people like General Tommy Franks and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
  9. AdmiralZaarin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 5
    Are we, the West, suffering what what Hirohito WWII Japan is? The belief that our soldiers are the nicest? The greatest? Only interested in peace and liberty?

    [image=http://history.acusd.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/romulo5.jpg]

    Read it closely. Isn't this what we are being told at the moment? It may be true...but it may not be. I have no doubts that Saddam Hussein is a terrible man. I believe he must be destroyed. But do I agree with the manner in which the Coalition of the Willing (God, it sounds like a movie) are attempting to do it with? No.

    Will we, like Japan at the end of WWII, be horrified when all the details are released under the Freedom of Information?

    Perhaps.

    Perhaps not.

    Who will our children think r0xx0rz?

    [image=http://www.mwebafrica.com/hub/news/images/focuses/saddam.jpg]

    or

    [image=http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/yearinreview/field.reports/politics/link.george.w.jpg]

    Will they think "My father died for a nation that broke the Geneva Conventions..."

    [image=http://www.moderntv.com/modtvweb/iraq91/tv-iraqsurr.jpg]

    Go out and buy the latest Time magazine. It's got a pic of Saddam on the cover. Look inside. There's a bloody two page spread of a photo that shows you the face of an Iraqi POW. He is being held at gunpoint. POWs must not be humiliated in public. But if I was some Iraqi dude, I would rather not be laughed at by over 300,000,000 people. Though I am not being intimidated or teased or anything, isn't capture and being showed off humiliating enough?

    PoT and other soldiers: Is capture by the enemy the ultimate humiliation for a soldier? I would like to know.
  10. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    All the Arab nations should unite and rid themselves of the Crusaders
  11. MarvinTheMartian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah...great idea! Then they can unify and form one bif happy Islamic fundamentalist governemnt ruled by theorcratic law. What a wonderful prospect.
  12. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    Yes reclaim the Holy Lands and turn back the Crusaders. Legions of turret mounted camels
  13. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    Then they can unify and form one bif happy Islamic fundamentalist governemnt ruled by theorcratic law. What a wonderful prospect.

    As opposed to a nation unified under the common banner of fear, told and brainwashed by a sycophantic greedy media machine feed the best propaganda the economic machinations of the Government and Corporate World can feed them? Wow, that's worked well so far. It's brought us the most war torn centuries of history, the greatest divide between the most poverty stricken of the world and the most greedy...err, I mean "luckiest" of us all.

    Greedy, fat bastards gleefully selling the blood of other nationalities for a bigger racist hunk of the pie to gorge themselves on.

    No wonder our society has become a wretched morass of slothful indifference: we have become so self-obsessed and selfish in the West we can't even acknowledge we are in the wrong anymore.

    Because really, isn't it THEIR fault they don't comply? Isn't it OUR Oil in the end? Isn't it OUR fast cars and fast food that will be sacrficed should these "Islamic Fundamentalist nuts" take power?

    Because remember kids, you can't trust those Arabs. Every single one of them are fundamentalist zealots who want to kill you. Time to move beyond alert, be ALARMED! Uncle Marv has said it himself, if the Arab World were to unite, they would SURELY form a Theocratic clerical state ruled by fundamentalists.

    Because - as we ALL know - there is no such thing as an innocent Arab, is there Marv?
  14. AdmiralZaarin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 5
    Mohammed's teachings > Islamic extremist interpretations
  15. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    If only all would pray to lord Huggard and the arch angel Mixo
  16. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    Making this out to be a religious endeavor is merely silly. You hardly help your case by calling the Americans, British, and their allies 'Crusaders'. It merely casts you as a nut, which you could very well be. That or you're like PoT, an intelligent young man who just can't see reality, can only see what he wants the world to be like and lashes out with violent rantings on the evil Imperialists in America and basically the entire 'West.'

    I still respect you for you intelligence, PoT, but I'm afraid I've lost all respect for you skills in arguing your case against the 'West.' Claiming we're intent on conquering and subjugating the rest of the world is a far flung, and frankly idiotic, idea that does no justice to your intellectual potential. If you don't like the way things are and the way things are run in Australia, the US, Britain, and elsewhere that you label Imperial, I suggest you get the hell out and settle down in North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Libya. It should do you some good to spend a few years in any of those countries as a normal 'citizen.'
  17. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    It is a hoilday here so lets all hold hands and pray for peace during this paganistic/christian hijacked/money hungry period
  18. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    Yun, I love to debate this and many issues with you, because your one of the few learned individuals whose conepts of politics are almost polarised to my own. Yet be wary of the pitfalls of semantics.

    Claiming we're intent on conquering and subjugating the rest of the world is a far flung, and frankly idiotic, idea that does no justice to your intellectual potential.

    Know this: when I say conquer or invade, I do not mean in the archetypal medieval sense of cavalry storming over the horizon. Although I would not sell the Hawks in the Bush Administration short by saying they don't dream of such gung-ho diplomacy, I know in a pragmatic sense the Imperialist West tends to rely on other, more insidious ways of "getting their own way" by enforcement.

    Cultural domination is a big one. All you need is to globalise the world as they have been doing, and ensure your hands are on the steering wheel. Is it any wonder that any newly capitalistic countries instantly rush to embrace the culture of TV, fast foods, obesity and Catholic flavoured atheism? No, because these ruts are the easiest ways in which to exist, so human nature is to seek them out. An outdated vestigal remnant of our cut-throat evolution.

    But "easiest" rarely equates to "best" or even "safest". Westernised life is not sustainable, physically OR spiritually. Yet, it seems the sole intent of the Coallition of the Willing is to assimilate all other ways of the world into their own.

    Some say "multiculturalism" exists simply because a few chinese restautrants can be found up the street and the local museum is doing a show on Islamic Art. But is this real? Perish the thought. Culture exists in all things, not just materialism. It is carried in the heart of the people, and in the Arab World, it is carried VERY close to the heart.

    This is why we are seeing such an uprising to the current geo-political machinations of the coallition of the willing and primarily, America.

    The invasion did not begin with Iraq. It has been slowly creeping along for decades. It is the same invasion that spawned the anger and discontent that fills Al Qaeda training camps, that keeps JI in control of Indonesian jungles. It is the same black shadow that slowly eats it's way into the hearts of a depressive youth, who are so afeared of its implications, they will tommorrow construct an explosive ordanance, strap it to their chest, and walk into an Israeli marketplace to meet Allah.

    It is the death of their culture. The gradual undermining of their civilisation, of everything they stand for.

    It is the feeling they get when they look in the eyes of their elders and see a deep sadness. It is when they pull on their Nike runners and wonder what they are lacking, why they feel empty everytime they see their family struggle through the day head hung low.

    It is the feeling they get when their houses are bulldozed by Israeli arrogance, it is the angry they feel when they see on TV images of an American administration telling them how to dictate their own affairs, bullying them into doing as they say...

    THIS is the conquering I speak of. THIS is the invasion. This is the subjugation of an entire people that I advocate, and you seemingly dismiss as "frankly idiotic".

    The right often seeks to illustrate their point with sheer - almost economic - precise logic. Arab's are different, hence inferior. Arabs control oil, thus we need to constrain or control their unpredictable culture. Arabs blow up people, we should send in tanks to stop them.

    Saddam does things that any tinpot dictator does, but does them whilst thumbing his nose to us: lets crush him and all those loyal to him.


    On the surface, the logic is fine. It's unassailable, and yes, it will make you "more powerful", it'll put you in a better position.

    But do you consider the backlash? The phenomenon the CIA call "blowback", and which they admit is probably the reason 9/11 occured?

    Blowback is basically, that look in their eye. That sadness in the old man watching the death of his civilis
  19. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    It's all just a part of human history. Get used to it. You don't like it, blow your head off.
  20. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah as Lute would say

    Buy a ticket to "Cope"enhagen!
  21. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    It's all just a part of human history. Get used to it. You don't like it, blow your head off.

    What a thin strand you weave Yun.
    So by your logical process, despite the obvious immorality, idealogical deficency or spiritual dearth we find ourselves in, we should ignore it, or shun it with "this is the way it has always been" or "who can change it? You?".

    My friend, these are the archetypal comments of the "realists". The group, usually of the Right, who believe that change is impossible and shouldn't be sort after anyway, because what present situation we find is natural anyway. This arguement defeats itself in assuming that there was no CHANGE to bring them there in the first place.

    Since the Big Bang our history has been about CHANGE. Sometimes violent, sometimes peaceful...in the greatest bounds however, it has been a spiritual, and intellectual leap: one of the heart and mind, the two qualities that seperate us from all other forms of Life.

    To shun the possibility of change, to turn a blind eye to the horror and evil being perpetuated because "we can't change it, let's live with it" is tantamount to negligence in my mind. Is it not the right who are fond of saying "Evil prospers when good men do nothing?" Oh how the realists must now eat those words.

    Look at your vaunted Human History: It is the idealists who change things. It is those who dared to dream of something different who underwent the journey to enlightenment.

    The world round? Haha! How pathetic, how unrealistic. Why would you bother?

    Lightning harnessable as a power? LOL! My lord you dreamers, pathetic!

    Stop the Vietnam War? Oh shut up and go back to your Arts Degree children. You lot aren't smart enough to understand, your only going through an education we all lack...

    Where do the examples end my friend? They don't. Great things have been managed because people dared to dream.

    Well hell, I dream of a Middle East where kids can grow up without fear of Israeli tanks, without the dishonour of knowing their people are dying, their civilisation fading away...that their parents lives will soon be erased from memory as an insignifigant cultural footnote.
    I dream of a world where Arrogant Americans don't attempt to assert some self-proclaimed superiority over other races in some egotistical orgy of self gratifying powermongering.

    Now call me a fool for dreaming, but at least I'll be able to live with the knowledge I did my best to fight evil: whilst you realists of the right did your best to sign the deal with the devil, and become complicit in the actions of the greedy, evil men and women of this world.

  22. AdmiralZaarin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 5
    We'd all be thinking the Earth was the centre of the universe if Gallileo hadn't disobeyed the church by saying "I bet it isn't."
  23. SithLord-Mixo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 5
    and thought the Earth was flat
  24. Yomin_Carr Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2002
    star 4
    I dream of a world where Arrogant Americans don't attempt to assert some self-proclaimed superiority over other races in some egotistical orgy of self gratifying powermongering.

    Thank God for some sense in the world.

  25. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    And what do you propse to do besides dream? Tell the West "You're all corrupt, look at yourselves, for shame! Fat pigs, put down your Big Macs and find Inner Peace!"

    Uh-huh, how about you quit preaching and actually do something instead of end up as a university professor in thirty years who's still outside of reality and still hasn't changed the world. There's a difference between merely dreaming of change and actually working for that change. I'm the kind of person who looks at history, learns from it and utilizes those lessons to advance the world as I can, in any way possible. I don't waste my time dreaming, I act.

    Dreamers do little except inspire others to dream and talk about their dreams. It's much rarer to see someone strive to fufill those visions. And let it be noted that being against the system and opposed to establishment is hardly "dreaming" as some percieve. Instead of saying "peace" and telling others they're "corrupt" and have a superiority complex, bloody do something to back your words. That's why I have no respect for "dreamers"; they don't do anything.




    Note: I find it amusing the West, being the most powerful force in the world, is somehow inferior to the ways of others. My God, they have lots of fat people and big factories but somehow are able to be more powerful than the "righteous opposition." Hmmmm, quite the mystery.
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