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CT C-3PO: War Criminal

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Beezer, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    I was watching Episode 6 today on my new TV (the first thing I always watch on a new TV is the original trilogy) and something occurred to me:

    Surrendering to the enemy for the purpose of drawing them in and surprise attacking them is called "perfidy" and it is a war crime and a violation of the Geneva Convention. Now I know there's no Geneva Convention in the galaxy far, far away but obviously the heroes of our tale share the same morality and ethics that we do. C-3PO clearly offers his surrender to the Imperial Forces on Endor when the Ewoks launch their surprise attack. He is therefore a war criminal, as well as the complicit Ewoks.

    Just something to think about.... :D
     
  2. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    3P0 is surrender-happy and always has been, so he probably was surrendering in good faith. The ewoks just didn't tell him the rest of their plan until it was too late.

    As for those little yub-yub furballs, I don't think they can even read or write, so Endor cannot be signatory to the Geneva convention. :p
     
  3. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    What I was thinking a good solution would be would be to give C-3PO a month in jail - but hang the furballs. ;-)
     
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  4. TX-20

    TX-20 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 21, 2013
    C-3PO: War Criminal would make a great title for an EU novel. Oh dear, oh dear.
     
  5. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    Beneath that shiny exterior lies a heart of cold steel.
     
  6. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Lock him up and throw away the key!!!
     
  7. Lord Chazza

    Lord Chazza Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2013
    But didn't he say "well they're coming now r2, are you sure this was a good idea" or something to that effect? I'm fairly sure 3PO was aware of the plan.
     
  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Obi-Wan also does this in the TCW movie.

    There's also Han donning an enemy uniform, when pretending to be an AT-ST driver. This is a prohibited ruse of war, by the Geneva Convention. That bad, naughty Han.
     
  9. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Just when I thought applying real-life morality and scenarios to the SW galaxy couldn't get any more ridiculous...

    Awesome thread title, though.;)
     
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  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    About the fallout and suffering undergone by the surviving storm troopers.

    "But he said..he said he surrendered. Why would someone do that?"
     
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  11. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    "That's Endor, man. It don't mean nuthin'. Just let it go."
     
  12. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    That, of course, assumes there were surviving stormtroopers... but do we really think those Ewoks kept POWs, with proper care and humane treatment? We know what they do to prisoners! What were all of those celebration campfires really for?[face_nail_biting]
     
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  13. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    Most ruses of war are permitted, and I think Han's actions are allowed. He donned an enemy uniform and faked a rebel retreat, both of which are allowed (although wearing an enemy uniform can get you labeled a spy in which case the enemy is allowed to torture and/or kill you). Furthermore, after Han's deception, the Rebels (and Ewoks) merely took prisoners. There was no further combat.

    I judge him not-guilty.
     
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  14. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    I don't think so:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy
     
  15. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    You either aren't following the thread, or you didn't read your own link. Your own link specifically says that ruses of war are not prohibited, so thank you for providing a link that supports my point. Faking a retreat and setting up an ambush is perfectly acceptable under the rules of war.
     
  16. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Well, wait a minute. I did indeed stupidly give you the wrong link-- I meant to give https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war. In any case, the link I meant to give says:

    Impersonating soldiers of the other side by wearing the enemy’s uniform is allowed, though fighting in that uniform is unlawful perfidy, as is the taking of hostages.

    We see in the movie that Han dons an enemy uniform and captures troops. Are they hostages?

    But the first link I gave basically says that same:

    Perfidy was part of the customary laws of war long before the prohibition of perfidy was included in Protocol I. For example in Hague IV: Laws and Customs of War on Land (October 18, 1907), Article 23 includes:
    In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden - ... To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; ... To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention; ...
    The issue of whether the donning of enemy uniforms in order to approach the enemy without drawing fire was within the laws of war was established underinternational humanitarian law at the trial in 1947 of the planner and commander of Operation Greif, Otto Skorzeny, during the Dachau Trials. The court did not find Skorzeny guilty of a crime by ordering his men into action in American uniforms. He had passed on to his men the warning of German legal experts, that if they fought in American uniforms, they would be breaking the laws of war, but they probably were not doing so just by wearing American uniforms. During the trial, a number of arguments were advanced to substantiate this position and that the German and US military seem to be in agreement on it. In its judgement the Court noted that the case did not require that the Court make findings other than those of guilty or not guilty, so consequently no safe conclusion could be drawn from the acquittal of all accused.[1]

    which, I admit, makes the issue somewhat murky.
     
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  17. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    I say that any action you perform that helps your own side win is permissible.
     
  18. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    During the age of sail, warships often flew false colors to lure enemy ships closer. While that practice was common and accepted, it was a given that one must run up the true colors before opening fire. Firing under false colors was as heinous as firing under a white flag.
     
  19. Loupgarou

    Loupgarou Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 19, 2010
    Do rules of war ever apply to rebellions? Now what always really disturbed me was the use of flamethrowers against geonodians in TCW under the orders of a Jedi. But I guess that's for another thread.
     
  20. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    In my view, stealth, deception, trickery, misdirection and flat-out lies are all valid tactics to use during any combat situation. I say that if you're dumb enough to fall for such tricks, then you deserve whatever happens to you.
     
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  21. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    It seems clear to me that the group of troopers that rush out are taken prisoner and not held hostage. Of course, they are conveniently nowhere to be found by the final scene.

    Han may very well indeed be guilty, but I don't think he actually wears the enemy uniform. All you see is a close up of his face, covered by the radio he is speaking into and a helmet. When the troopers rush out of the bunker, Han is in his own fatigues. You are certainly allowed within the rules of war to intercept enemy messages as well as deliberately send false or misleading messages.
     
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  22. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    The happens in Master and Commander, a great movie.
     
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  23. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    I agree with this except for the part about a false surrender. The whole point of surrendering is so that the enemy doesn't mow you down. You're appealing to their mercy and, under the rules of war, they are equally obligated to accept the surrender.
     
  24. Joe

    Joe Jedi Master star 6

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    Dec 25, 2012
    Do war crimes even apply to droids? They technically aren't sentient, because they can be reprogrammed quite easily.
     
  25. Mr. K

    Mr. K Moderator Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    I tell you, Ewoks are the Vietcong of the SW saga. Many troopers watched their buddies die facedown in the mud that day.