Callista Fans Unite!! (version 5.0)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Callie, May 11, 2000.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    This thread is about something I've been thinking about a lot lately: the supposed story arc that Star Wars is following. This arose in another thread I was involved in (and I'm sure many others), but I couldn't find it, and I couldn't find the index (if there is one for this forum, I don't spend too much time here). If this topic would fit much better in another thread, please just point me to it. I couldn't find anything.

    The argument goes something like this: Many complaints about TPM can be written off as being the intent of the film. The film is supposed to be light-hearted in nature, because the movies will get so much darker in the future. This is a concerted effort on Lucas's part, to create one arcing story like nothing ever before seen in the history of film, and to have the tone of the films follow that arc, as well. A corollary to this argument in support of TPM is a defense of ROTJ. The two movies are the bookends to the story, and are intended to be light, fun fare. Therefore, what many people find as faults in Eps I and VI are actually Lucas's intent, and there should be no need to worry about future Episodes, because he still has it. (If anyone who subscribes to this theory thinks I have summarized it poorly, please correct me.)

    This argument is usually brought up in response to someone saying, "Look at the last two episodes. They were poorly made. Lucas is losing his touch, and I'm losing my interest." The story/tone arc is then brought up to show that Lucas means to do this, and when it's all said and done, the series will be perfect like nothing before has ever been perfect, and all those people who had lost faith in Lucas will be sick from eating their hats.

    Here is my problem with that theory: I agree that there is some intent to create a story/tone arc. There is some coherency to the films, and TPM and ROTJ are the way they are because Lucas wanted them that way. However, that doesn't stop them from being, in my opinion, full of mis-steps and questionable judgment calls. Sure, I can agree that they were intended to be this way, but that's not a justification of the film. It's merely confirmation that Lucas may have lost his touch. He tried to make them lighter in tone, and succeeded in that, but at the same time, alienated a part of his audience. If Lucas had been at top form, as he was when making ANH, then he would have been able to achieve the delicate balance between lightness and appeal to all. In TPM, he appealed to the child in us all (including children) in the basest manner possible. The Lucas of old would have been able to do that in much subtler ways.

    I think this doesn't bode well for future episodes. Whether he intended the movies to be "fun" or not, it's still not a defense for them. Many people, myself included, realize that, but still think that he did a poor job of it. He may have meant to make them that way, but our question is why would he do such a thing?

    Also, on a much more picky note, can people please stop referring to it as an "arc" (as I have done here for simplicity's sake)? I don't know what everyone else thinks an arc looks like, but the way this story is developing, it certainly won't be one. Let's see, TPM and ROTJ are the happiest, so we'll put them at the two endpoints. An arc would have a smooth curve from end to end. Well, considering that Ep III will be extremely dark (as is reported), and ANH will certainly end up being lighter than that, and ESB is darker than ANH, we don't have an arc here. It's more of a degrading sine wave (although obviously not exactly that, either). Now that's just a matter of semantics, and quite a picky one, I know. I just wanted to point it out, though. But also, it does throw into question George's grand design, if only just a little bit.

    Okay, that's my spiel, and I think I've rambled for long enough. I just want to ask people to stop throwing lines at me about how it's Lucas's intent for TPM to be the way it is, because it's part of a larger story. I understand that. But I still think the last
  2. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    As for me, I can only say that, while I enjoyed the general plot of the film, I didn't like the heavy-handedness of the attempts by GL to create a light-hearted film.

    I think you can achieve that by being more subtle. Stepping in dung and farting noises is the kind of slap stick comedy best reserved for Adam Sandler films.

    Some people will say that Jar Jar's over-the-top performance was intentional in order to provoke a particular reaction from the audience. Ok, but I didn't like it. And, why alienate a segment of your audience?

    JJ wasn't just clumsy, he was carelessly stupid. I think the hatred towards Jar Jar would never have materialized if the character were played clumsy as opposed to being annoying and distracting from the story. Yes, kids would have stilled loved him and adults would have found him engaging. That would have made the film alot better for alot of people.
  3. Bloop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 1
    Just wanted to add that I have nothing to add.
  4. baggles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 4
    But Jar Jar style antics are found in Shakespeare and all myths/fables.
    George is smart enough to know that you can't cater to fickle audiences.
  5. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Norman said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If Lucas had been at top form, as he was when making ANH, then he would have been able to achieve the delicate balance between lightness and appeal to all. In TPM, he appealed to the child in us all (including children) in the basest manner possible.

    The problem with this is that you were probably a child when you saw ANH for the first time (and ESB and ROTJ). Now you are an adult seeing a new SW movie and expecting to have the same experience that you did the first time you saw ANH. While it?s nice to think that we all still have a child in us, it is impossible to think that the ?child within us? could react the same way as we did when we were actually children.

    IMO, the ultimate test would be to find an 8 year old kid who has never seen SW. What would be that child?s reaction to all 4 movies? I doubt they would think the TPM is just so much more childish than the other.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>His grand design could have been so much better.

    Sorry, I?m going to be picky here. This statement is not true. His grand design is exactly what he wants it to be. Unless GL himself says that he could have made the overall story better, this statement has no bearing. The fact that you would have done things differently if you were in control (and in your opinion, this would have made a better grand design) has no bearing whatsoever on what GL thinks should be done with the story.

    TrueJedi said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That would have made the film alot better for alot of people.

    ?From your point of view!?
  6. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    I think an older audience can appreciate the emotional drop that will take place in ep 3 due to the light tone in ep 1. This is a little repetive, much like the thread an alternative ending, you should go over to that thread, Norman.
  7. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Darth Mace:

    I already said that it was my opinion. Please don't Gomer me. Thanks.
  8. Norman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 1999
    star 4
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The problem with this is that you were probably a child when you saw ANH for the first time (and ESB and ROTJ). Now you are an adult seeing a new SW movie and expecting to have the same experience that you did the first time you saw ANH. While it?s nice to think that we all still have a child in us, it is impossible to think that the ?child within us? could react the same way as we did when we were actually children.This seems to be another of the great TPM defenses. I'm sorry, but I'm perfectly capable of watching a film objectively. I know the feeling I got when I first watched ANH, and it was childlike. However, that is not why it appeals to me now. It's appealing for completely different reasons. If you noticed, I said that TPM didn't achieve the balance between childlike appeal and appeal to all ages. I didn't expect it to appeal to me as if I were a child. I expected it to appeal to children, and to myself as an adult, as all the other movies do. TPM failed to accomplish this. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sorry, I?m going to be picky here. This statement is not true. His grand design is exactly what he wants it to be. Unless GL himself says that he could have made the overall story better, this statement has no bearing. The fact that you would have done things differently if you were in control (and in your opinion, this would have made a better grand design) has no bearing whatsoever on what GL thinks should be done with the story.Just because TPM is exactly the way he wants it, doesn't mean it's perfect. The circular logic here astounds me. Ever watched any movie and thought it could have been better? Read a book and thought the ending should have been handled differently? This is what I mean. I'm sure some of the people who made those works made them exactly the way they wanted. Doesn't mean they can't be better. It only means they lived up to their own low expectations for themselves.

    I realize this quote in particular is a moot point. There's a line drawn between people who have complete faith in Lucas, and those who think TPM could have been done better, and no one's going to drag anyone to the other side. However, I must say, in my opinion, Episode I could have been handled much better. This may be the way GL wants it, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. It means a man is returning to something he hasn't worked on in almost twenty years, and he just may have forgotten how to do it. I hope not.
  9. Joey7F Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2000
    star 4
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Darth Mace

    The problem with this is that you were probably a child when you saw ANH for the first time (and ESB and ROTJ). Now you are an adult seeing a new SW movie and expecting to have the same experience that you did the first time you saw ANH. While it?s nice to think that we all still have a child in us, it is impossible to think that the ?child within us? could react the same way as we did when we were actually children.

    IMO, the ultimate test would be to find an 8 year old kid who has never seen SW. What would be that child?s reaction to all 4 movies? I doubt they would think the TPM is just so much more childish than the other.



    I am a good objective choice I think. Here is the deal, I was not a fan of Starwars. I dismissed it(I am sorry i did for i could have had something to really look forward to in TPM) as being nerdy stupid scifi.

    About a week before TPM came out I thought maybe I would give the OT the chance. My interest in TPM was purely for the awesome effects that I saw in the trailer.

    I watched the OT, specifically ANH. I thought it was a fantastic movie. I watched it about 3 more times before the day was out. A first for ANY movie(maybe a few disney movies from my childhood but for the most part this was right)

    I then got psyched to see ESB, once again I was not disappointed then I saw Jedi and I liked it.

    This brings us to TPM. I had expectations that were grounded in the quality of the OT. I was blown away. The first time I concentrated so much on the visuals I completely missed Sidious = palpy. When I saw it a week later I realized that TPM was in ANH's league. ESB follows closely behind imho.

    I am 17 for the record and I don't think it is really that childish. Sure Jar Jar stepping in poop is kinda kindergartenish(I have to admit I cracked up though ) My friends for the most part liked the movie. Some I had to explain the movie to. Those who didn't like it were usually doing it because of the coolness factor associated with saying it was crap.

    Since I have seen ANH about 30 times ESB 20 or so JEdi about 15 TPM about 20 and I really like all of them. I will always like ANH the best because of the way it introduced me to the saga but in terms of plot TPM is the strongest(tied with ESB).

    Sorry for the long post.

    --Joey
  10. OrlandoT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 4
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I realize this quote in particular is a moot point. There's a line drawn between people who have complete faith in Lucas, and those who think TPM could have been done better, and no one's going to drag anyone to the other side. However, I must say, in my opinion, Episode I could have been handled much better. This may be the way GL wants it, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. It means a man is returning to something he hasn't worked on in almost twenty years, and he just may have forgotten how to do it. I hope not. You're forgeting us folks who don't think everything Lucas does is perfect (see greedo firing first) and still thinkt TPM was perfect. For whatever reason you may think Lucas is rusty because you didn't like TPM but as far as I see it he hit a home run.
  11. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    TPM could have been improved . . . but not by anyone working in Hollywood today! I think most fans will admit Lucas has some failings as a writer and director, but there's no one else who has his imagination or sense of epic scope. It's easy to look at TPM and say this or that could have been done better. But how many of you could have come up with a better plot from scratch?
  12. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    Ok guys and gals, it looks like our beloved 19 page juggernaut of a thread isn't posting new posts anymore, so perhaps we'd better start anew on this fresh new thread!

    To christen our newly relocated shrine, I shall post the "official" picture of this thread

    http://jedicallie.tripod.com/callistaskywalker.jpg


    Luke and Callista Forever!!


    [This message has been edited by Jedi Callie (edited 06-20-2000).]
  13. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    I'll re-post in here what I was trying to post in the other thread (but the bantha ate my posts LOL).

    Shara: in answer to your trivia question, the first indication to Luke that Callie had been on the Eye was when the jawa handed him her lightsaber. Was that the answer you were going for?

    Here's my question :

    What did Geith call Callie when she refused to go along with his idea of escaping the Eye before they could destroy it?

    Luke and Callista Forever!!
  14. Shara82 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2000
    star 1
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Callie:
    Shara: Was that the answer you were going for?

    Sure was, Jedi Callie.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What did Geith call Callie when she refused to go along with his idea of escaping the Eye before they could destroy it?

    I believe he called her a stubborn little fishrider. Well, I'm pretty sure the 'stubborn' and 'fishrider' were in there...not sure about the little.

    Now, my question:

    What was the name of the first person who 'enslaved' Callista on Belsavis?

    Luke and Callista Forever!

  15. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    Shara: ding, ding, ding!! That is correct, ma'am!

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What was the name of the first person who 'enslaved' Callista on Belsavis?

    Wait, did you mean Nam Chorios instead of Belsavis? If so, the answer is Beldorion the Hutt, I believe...

    Luke and Callista Forever!!

    [This message has been edited by Jedi Callie (edited 06-20-2000).]
  16. Insane Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 4
  17. Shara82 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2000
    star 1
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Callie:
    Wait, did you mean Nam Chorios instead of Belsavis? If so, the answer is Beldorion the Hutt, I believe...

    Yep, that was what I meant, sorry. I leant my friend my copy of PoT about a year ago now, and she still won't give it back. mad.gif

    Anyway, I may be wrong about this, but I thought that Taselda(sp?) got to Callista first, and then sent her to Beldorion to get the lightsabre, and it was then he caught her.

    As I said, I could be wrong (due to absence of Pot ) but that was what I always thought...

    Luke and Callista Forever!



    [This message has been edited by Shara82 (edited 06-20-2000).]
  18. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    Oh for shame, I can't believe I got that backwards!! You're right, Shara, it was Taselda who got to her first... Oops!! My bad .

    Ok, since I got that wrong, you'll need to ask another trivia question LOL...

    Luke and Callista Forever!!

  19. Green Lightsabre Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2000
    star 1
    Hey Callie! Good to see ya.

    Go Callista!
  20. Jedi15 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 4
    Not another new thread? rolleyes.gif

    Okay, I want to ask the next trivia question. In PoT, Callista sent a message to Luke, which warned him about what? I'll give you a little hint; you'll find it in Chapter 2.

    Luke and Callista Forever!
  21. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    Jedi15: wasn't the warning to Leia? It was a warning not to meet with Seti Ashgad...

    Oooh, oooh, I got one!!

    What did Callie hide this warning message in? And bonus question, what was the actual letter written on?

    And yes, I had to start another thread, sorry! 19 pages seems to be the limit for threads before things start going kablooey LOL...

    Green Lightsabre: well hello there!

    Luke and Callista forever!!
  22. Jedi15 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 4
    Oops! I'm sorry. Yes, the message was for Leia, but it was Luke who received it. Sorry for that little mistake! redface.gif

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What did Callie hide this warning message in? And bonus question, what was the actual letter written on?

    The message was hidden inside a "cheap music box", and it was written on flimsiplast. Did I get that right?

    Luke and Callista Forever!

  23. Jedi Callie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 2
    Jedi15: A+!! Yes, you got both questions right!

    I see it's hard to stump people on this thread LOL...

    Luke and Callista Forever!!
  24. Ambassador Cara Jade Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 6
    Fifth time's the charm, right?

    I'll ask a question:
    What is the first thing that Luke ever says to Callista?

    I think I've asked this one before, but I don't remember if anyone answered it.

    Oh, and I will post those poems. I just have to find where I wrote them--eek!

    Luke and Callista Forever!!!
  25. Insane Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 4
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What is the first thing that Luke ever says to Callista?

    Hello.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.