ST Can Kylo Ren be saved/salvaged/redeemed?

Well, it'd rhyme with ROTJ and Lucas says the trilogies should rhyme

Meh. Anakin murdered children, physically attacked his wife, and found redemption. In retrospect, I wonder if Lucas ever reconsiders the decision to make Anakin a child murderer

 

Well, yeah but that's why I specifically highlighted Vader's weakness for family as being his "redemption." Kylo Ren is clearly not above killing children. I'm pretty sure we watched him order the execution of a bunch of children.

 

Like it's been mentioned before, I think Kylo is supposed to be a "what if" version of Luke's story.

Luke = Tempted by the dark side but ultimately rejects it when he refuses to kill his father and assume his place in the "Rule of Two" as a Sith.

Kylo = Tempted by the light side but ultimately rejects it, killing his father and assuming his place in the "Rule of Two" as a Sith.

My gut tells me that he'll kill Snoke in Ep. VIII and become the ultimate bad guy in Ep. IX

 

I think he'll find a way to redeem himself. It is already established in the films that you can do some fiendishly evil stuff and still get redeemed - you'll likely have to pay a steep price, but you will be redeemed in the end. Besides, who wants to see a movie where a mother has to kill her own son? It would end things on a huge down note.

 

If they can do it well, better than Vader, then fine. Because, as brilliant as I found most of the stuff in Sheev's throne room, I can totally understand the complaints of "too little, too late" that some people have when it comes to Anakin's "redemption."

But some of JJ and co's comments make me doubt it honestly. He certainly did enough in TFA to make the characters, and audience, despise him. Heck him getting beat down by Rey at the end was so cathartically satisfying, he deserved it simply for what he did to HER, or tried to do anyway, alone (let alone all of the other stuff).

 

I've always though that the muder of Han was meant to take redemption off the table this time out. And while I still believe that may be the case, a couple of things have given me pause:

1) I think balancing the light and dark is going to be key this time out. Not in the sense of destroying on or the other, but in terms of actual balance - that there is light and dark in the galaxy just as there is in all of us, and we must learn to balance the two - accepting both - if we are to achieve harmony. That may mean Rey and Ren have to work together at some point to defeat Snoke or an even greater threat to the galaxy. Which brings me to point:

2) In Drew McWeeny's second take on TFA, he gets into all sorts of theories and ideas. Some I think he's wide of the mark on, but he did say that when one of his sources first told him about Han's murder on the walkway, he also told him that further down the line, we may realise that Kylo was playing some extreme long game here. What if Kylo has learned of some other prophecy, or seen a vision of his own future and believes he is destined to properly bring balance to the Force. But he can only achieve this by giving himself fully to the dark side.

I don't know exactly how that would play out or if you can make that work satisfactorily with his motivations - though I'm sure there is a way - but it could be very interesting indeed.

I can't wait to see how they flesh out Kylo, Snoke and what the First Order's agenda really is out there in the Unknown regions. Hopefully we get our first look at dark side training and Ren's training will parallel Rey's (albeit as a dark reflection). I still believe we may see the rest of the backstory/ vision/ force back very early on (almost immediately) in 8, only from Kylo's POV as he undergoes his own cave moment with Snoke.

 

I kinda feel that redeeming Kylo would have to be written really carefully, especially if they want him alive afterwards. Vader kinda got a pass I think, because at the end of the day he's dead. You don't have to wonder about the whole 'He redeemed himself, buuuut what are we going to do about all those warcrimes and the millions he killed on Alderaan.'

I'm not sure balancing the force would really work for that sort of thing either. It's too abstract to really connect for a good reason why we should forgive the crimes Kylo did, and in the end just kinda feels off, at least to me. Like balancing the force may be all well and all, but when it involves the deaths of the people on all the planets in the Hosnian system plus the various and sundry other victims of Kylo and the First Order, it's just kind of a mess to redeem unless you're incredibly careful with how you write it.

 

Well, sure. Writing it well is part of the deal whatever. And I'm not saying balance makes very thing right. But surely balance as "reconciling the bad and good" is truer balance than "eliminate the opposite" is truer to life and perhaps a more progressive message in the end.

 

I find it hard to believe anyone would forgive Kylo for what he did in TFA and want him to survive this trilogy. I don't think there is a chance for redemption, at least not with him surviving.

 

I'm not necessarily saying that need be the case of balance. Kylo may himself ultimately know he must die.

Or, Rey and Luke must find a way to reconcile that darkness when Kylo cannot be redeemed.

We need a different wrinkle on the light v dark themes we've seen so far.

If you read the quote from the Jounral of the Whills in the novelisation it seems to be about balance to me.

The idea that balance equals destroying the darkness seems off to me. It always has. Let's see if they will progress this in the ST - I think they will.

 

If they do go this route, then he should live. None of this Vader-esque "ok, here's my one good dead, and now I'm dead, so have fun trying to clean up my mess" business. He needs to face the things that he's done, the people that he's hurt, the loved ones of those he's killed, and he needs to THINK about it.

Imagine him sitting in prison, if you will. And then Leia and Rey come to him because they need his help. Leia still loves him, but calls him out on his actions. Rey makes it clear that she doesn't trust or forgive him, but that she's willing to work with him, and then maybe, MAYBE, with enough time/effort, he can earn both of those things from her. But if he steps out of line, or backslides, she'll kill him.

It'd make for an interesting dynamic. Him being forced to work with people who flat-out hate him, or at least don't trust him at all.

 

Yeah - that's something I think could be interesting. Certainly not the only way to go, but interesting.

 

What if it isn't Kylo Ren's redemption we should be discussing, but Rey's downfall. Imagine a scenario where the two are united... now that would be interesting, indeed.

 

I hope not, like a lot.

 

I want to see a redeemed Kylo, except unlike Vader, he lives. Then in 20-30 years, we get episodes X-XIII, that could be a part of it, how Kylo (now Ben again) reconcile what they did in the past to what they are then. Of course, this hinges on whether Driver wants to reprise his role, something I don't see as a slam dunk.

 

I hope that Ren is not redeemed. It seems like such a cop-out that a character can be 'redeemed' after killing his father in cold blood. He might be saved spiritually but there's no undoing the evil that he has committed himself to. The same is doubly true of Vader. The only reason Vader's redemption is acceptable to audiences is because he dies at the end. Can you imagine if Luke pulled a injured Vader onto the shuttle and he actually managed to survive and join in on the celebration on Endor? The millions of people who suffered or lost loved ones at his hands would be crying for his head on a platter. Growing a conscience after committing countless atrocities just doesn't cut it.

 

Yes, but he would not have joined the celebration. He would have went off alone. It can be something in the middle

 

One thing that Ren is going to have to face and deal with is his killing of his father. He probably expected to see hatred on Han's face when he died, but instead it is the touch of his father's hand and a look of love and forgiveness. That has to effect him in ways he won't expect and probably will not want to face. It could push him farther into the dark, but like Anakin he will have to deal with guilt and that is not so easy for anyone. I think that is why so many dark side users stay dark, they can't deal with guilt and remorse so they bury it in more hatred and loathing of themselves that they deny.

As for Rey, we should know she is going to have to deal with balancing and enduring both light and dark. Just like Luke she will be tested, and that testing will be deep.

 

No. That would be a real plot twist - we think he will change his ways and he does not.

 

Long time lurker but had to join to comment here.
I'm really unhappy with the last minute regret and redemption trope and prefer my villains to go down fighting. Yet Star Wars has a long tradition for salvation, so that might be in store for Kylo Ren as well. Only story of redemption I'd like would be similar to Ulic Qel-Dormas in the Tales of the Jedi comic. Kylo is so showy with his skills that a good way to atone would be to loose his powers all together and face the future as a man with no force skills and a host of crimes to feel guilty about.

 

I feel like Lucas and co didn't want SW to be overly-pessimistic. Like dark/horrible stuff happens, but there was still light at the end of the tunnel. I suspect that the same will be true of the ST, though whether that includes Kylo is another matter.

 

Did anyone else get the impression that Kylo wasn't supportive of the decision to use the Starkiller Base to destroy those planets?

When Hux suggested that the weapon be used he turned his head to him, as if wanting to object. In fact I thought the head-turn was reminiscent of how Darth Vader was looking at the Emperor just before he decided to throw him down the pit. When Hux got the go-signal from Snoke he then turned to Kylo with a look that seemed to say "Ha! I got my way and you didn't."

Somehow I think they're leaving enough reason for Kylo to be redeemed.

 

Agreed. Throughout both the original and prequel trilogies, there's an undercurrent of the triumph of good over evil, with evil always getting vanquished in the end. Also, if there's potential for good in the bad guy, especially if he has COME from the light side (see: Anakin), he is redeemed - again, that's a triumph of good over evil, but within a character themselves. So the tone of the films has always been an optimistic 'where there is light, light will triumph'

Which is precisely what makes me think that this will include Ren. Is there potential for light in Snoke, Hux, the First Order in general? No, we don't see light in them, and as far as we know they didn't come from the light. Therefore, they are the dark side and will be overcome and beaten. Is there potential for light in Kylo Ren? Yes, there is - we've seen it. Therefore, the darkness in him will be overcome and beaten, and he will either be redeemed or fully turned to the light side.

My theory, anyhoo

 

That's a certainty - it's in the script that Ren isn't supportive of that decision.

 

I got the sense that he didn't care about SKB really. He mostly let Hux and the military do that. His motives, were much more personal.