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Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ree Yees, Aug 26, 2004.

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  1. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    The prequels, AOTC in particular, do not make it easy to understand just what Palpatine planned, what was circumstance and what had nothing to do with his rise to power.

    It is the EU (Expanded Universe) which has to explain this. And Lucas isn't an EU reader.

    So the question is: If I met George today and asked him, "Can you explain to me Palpatine's rise to power?", including subquestions such as "Why did Jango give the kouhuns to Zam?", "Why did Palpy want Obi-Wan to guard Padmé?", "Why did Count Dooku tell Obi-Wan the truth?" etc etc,

    would he be able to give me a satisfying answer?

    I am 100% certain he doesn't even know what I'd be talking about, hehe, but what do you believe?
     
  2. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    I believe he would tell you that those little details aren't important in themselves and that you should wait until ROTS, where we will see the extent of his plan.
    Palpatine's rise to power is designed to confuse us a little, but the clues are all there. All you have to do is put the pieces together. What you will find is that Palpatine adapts to any given situation and uses every potential tool to his advantage.
    In ROTS, I believe we will witness the ultimate manipulation. I think that Palpatine will have the Republic believe that the Jedi are deceivers and that they've been manipulating the Republic for over ten years in order to take control over the galaxy. A brilliant plan, since it is Palpatine who's the deceiver.
     
  3. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    So your answer is no.

    And how can you piece together something that is so full of holes?
     
  4. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    And how can you piece together something that is so full of holes?


    Think of the Prequels as a ratty old t-shirt, full of holes and gravy stains. Now imagine the EU as the thread Lucas uses to try and sew said holes together. As for the stains, he pretty much uses subsequent DVD releases/Special Editions as cheap bleach to erase them. Lovely analogy, I know. :p
     
  5. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    It rings truth ;)
     
  6. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    Taking over the galaxy is not a simple thing. It is complicated. I myself understand exactly what Palpatine is doing in the films. I'm not confused at all. For anyone confused, just wait for ROTS.

    -Seldon
     
  7. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    Then explain to me exactly how Palpatine manages to do what he does in TPM and AOTC so far. What is coincidence, what is planned. The whys behind the choices.
     
  8. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    No, my answer is yes. Lucas wouldn't think it was worth the time to explain every little detail to you, though, because they aren't that important. You don't need to know what was planned from the beginning and what was made up on the go.
    If you desperately want to know, though, it's quite easy to figure it out for yourself. You just have to use some brain.
     
  9. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    If you have taken any history course where men rise to power through different methods, then it is really not difficult to understand Palpatine. All you need is a little bit of information about how Hitler worked it and you will realize everything is. Watch the films again and just think about Palpatine and his goals.
    It is not too difficult.

    -Seldon
     
  10. Ko-jah

    Ko-jah Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    i'll have a crack.

    TPM
    chancellor valorum was obviously doing a pretty good job and palpatine needed to upset the applecart so he wanted to stage a little conflict in naboo.

    he knows and understands the political system and therefore knows that someone like amidala *should* fold easily and submit to signing a treaty - this is the tale he spins to the unknowing viceroy to get him to agree with it, thus making the viceroy think that he is gaining control of a planet with little fuss.

    however palpatine trully knows that amidala is a hard ass and will not sign a treaty, thus leading to a greater conflict and making a stir within the senate.

    of course before this palpy must know that the beauracrats are very reluctant on making decisive action and defer motion in front of the entire sentate who have just heard the queen of naboo (and the innocent voice of a child) plead her case, obviously angering everyone into wanting to cast a vote of no confidence immediately.

    as he is the senator of the planet in conflict he generates the sympathy vote said in the movie (oviously he may have used subtler jedi powers to secure other votes but who knows for sure)

    i'm not quite clear on the purpose of maul. perhaps palpatine did not quite want to reveal the sith just yet but since the jedi escaped with the queen he thought he might as well send him out to assassinate the queen and jedi, thus making naboo's plae more tragic and generating a stronger sympathy vote?

    i like to think that palpatine actually chose this time to reveal the sith to the jedi, maybe as part of a plan we will see in episode 3. when i think about it in episode 1 the jedi are puzzled about this revelation regarding the possibility of a sith lord existing. episode 2 - their ability to use the force is diminished. episode 3 what good are they if they didnt see this comming??? dunno.

    then the whole purpose of maul going back to naboo as viceroys bodyguard AFTER the queen had gone to the senate was to die to confirm the existence of the sith and "rattle" the confidence of the jedi.

    then again if he lived...2 less jedi to worry about.

    episode 2
    the gist is that he waged an intergalactic war in order to gain emergency powers and therefore gain military might behind his decision making.

    how he did it
    palpatines end:
    create the clones (ordered after TPM) we dont know if he posed as sifodias or not probably find out EP 3)

    dookus end:
    convince the viceroy (who has one of the larger contingents of droid armies in the galaxy) to side with him. viceroy only asks for amidala's death, hence the assassination attempts.

    why use zam?
    i suspect palpatine wanted anakin as an apprentice ever since he crossed paths with him in TPM thus pairing the two together (which is why he asked for obi wan kenobi) palpatine thought that perhaps in padmes presence he may learn the power that emotions wield and thus prove easier to seduce to the dark side.
    since viceroy wanted amidala dead dooku had to present him with genuine assassination attempts for him to hang around - remember the viceroy was rogered once so this time you'd think he was extra careful.

    at this stage palpatine has pretty much secured an opposing army (under dooku's supervision) and has the clones ready as his army but he cant exactly just pull and army out of the bag when required and expect no questions asked. it would be better if the jedi found the army off their own merits and then the jedi "conveniently" inform the supreme chancellor that he has an army at his disposal.

    getting back to zam - dooku probably just told fett to get someone else to do the assassination and to kill them with a kamino origin weapon. (he couldnt lose his DNA blueprint now could he). obviously dooku didnt outrightly say it like that it would have been "make sure zam does the job, if she gets caught...you know what to do" *presents him with various kamino weapons that may prove handy*

    so now the stage is set for two armies to war with each other and hopefully take down the majority of participating je
     
  11. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    ^ Your a better user then me for explaining it out. I just did not feel like writing it all because it is easy to figure out and people should just think. Anyway I agree with you, but there is still more behind it.

    For example Palpatine worked it so that Anakin would go on his own and spend time with a girl he has feelings for. It is also very possible that Palpatine worked the Tuskens into capturing Shimi. He needs Anakin to feel pain and might have devised the plot to get Shimi killed off.
    This is speculation but it is possible.

    Palpatine also saw the threats to Amidala's life in AOTC, as a way to get rid of her. He needed her off world when the emergency powers issue came up. He used Jar Jar as a puppet who represents Amidala to give him the powers. Everyone would listen to Amidala, but she may not have granted him the powers, so everyone listens to Amidala's rep. Binks and thus Palpatine gains his emergency powers.

    -Seldon
     
  12. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    Lol, but that explanation isn't present in the films, nor does it make any sense at all!
     
  13. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I don't know about anyone else but it makes sense to me.
    If you think about politics and you think about Palpatine it all clicks. It is the entire point of the prequels. I love that story and how Palpatine is truly a puppet master in the films.

    Works out great.

    -Seldon
     
  14. PloKloon1138

    PloKloon1138 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2001
    Makes sense to me as well. ;)
     
  15. Keeper_of_Swords

    Keeper_of_Swords Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003

    Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

    Yes.


    "One of thematic issues here is how Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Telling how he moved to the next level, and then when you see all of the films together it will all make a lot more sense. But this is kind of a very small thematic issue that transcends all six movies as opposed to something that's actually neatly tied up in this particular movie alone. Step one is that Palpatine becomes Chancellor, and you'll see in Episode II that he then makes another step (Emergency Powers), and in Episode III he makes another step (Emperor)."
    --George Lucas



    "To get an idea of the kind of man Palpatine is in the prequel trilogy you need to read about the Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and his spectacular rise to power in Rome."
    --George Lucas



    The Clone Wars
    by George Lucas

    For a thousand years, the Old Republic prospered and grew under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the venerable Jedi Knights. But as often happens when wealth and power grow beyond all reasonable proportion, an evil fueled by greed arose. The massive organs of commerce mushroomed in power, the Senate became corrupt, and an ambitious named Palpatine was voted Supreme Chancellor. Most disturbingly, the Dark Lords of the Sith reappeared, after a thousand years of seeming absence.

    Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread periously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.




     
  16. R2-12point

    R2-12point Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Ree Yees,

    I can easily put it all together ... but, yes, I'd have to work hard at doing it and make quite few huge presumptions. But don't kid yourself, it can be done at least to nominal satisfaction. For example, I think Padme's line about "dooku being behind it" is the dumbest, most confusing one in the movie, utterly paradoxical and transparently an attempt of GL's to steer the scene. Yet, although many a fan of the film has tried to explain it to me and failed miserably, I could still work up some half-assed explanation in my head, I'm sure. I shouldn't have to, but I can.

    However ....

    >>>Lucas wouldn't think it was worth the time to explain every little detail to you, though, because they aren't that important. <<<

    Than no HINT of them should be in the films at all, except as the faintest echoes. If what you say is true, and I think it is, than editorially a smart GL would cut all the background for what it was: mastabatory background that leadens the movie. However, like all amateur writers (and Gl, though a monster genius professional producer, is still an amateur) THEIR mastabatory worldbuilding sci-fi nonsense sounds like nothing of the sort in their own ears. I know; I've been there, but after you read a couple dozen stories of the sort (say, in a writer's class you're hosting) you recognize even your own pretty quick.

    Of course, sci-fi movie and tv fans are so endeared of this sort of worldbuilding minutia crap that some of them not only don't mind it, they embrace it. I can't, which is why no syndicated sci fi show has ever got more than two viewings out of me.
     
  17. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    ^ The Dooku line is to introduce that there is a former Jedi that is causing trouble. We also see the Jedi's reaction to him being involved which shows how little they know about anything. It also adds to the mystery of who is trying to kill her which drives Obi-Wan in search of the answer when he finds the clones. So it is an important line.

    Why are we talking about SF. SW is not SF. Star Wars is a fantasy which takes place in space. Many confuse it as an SF film which it is not.

    I find it amusing that you call GL an amateur when he has directed and written so many films. THX 1138, Six SW films, Willow, the story behind Indiana Jones, American Graff......yet you still call him an amateur?


    -Seldon
     
  18. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    God Forbid you actually have to think nowadays to understand a movie
     
  19. Lord_Cole_Slaw

    Lord_Cole_Slaw Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Yeah, I think it could be put together, but he would be have to be thowing in a bunch of filler to do it. Perhaps when PT SE's come out :) But right now, I think he would be grabbing at straws...

    What about this one though. Now, I haven't watched TPM or AOTC in a while so I'm not too sure on this one. Does Palpatine know Anakin is "The Chosen One"? Does Palpatine know anything about "the prophecy"?

    Since I don't give TPM and AOTC's that much attention, I don't remember any scene where Palps is informed of Anakin's importance. If it is in there, then ... flame away! I'm wearing my fire suit and oxygen mask!
     
  20. BenduHopkins

    BenduHopkins Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2004
    The Jedi were not meant to find Kamino. It was something that the sith had to work with. The sith were also surprised that the Jedi used the Clones, and just had to work with that. But although unforseen, it turned out to be devilishly ironic and almost better than the original plan.

    I think Palpatine was just going to use the Seperatists as a reason to create the clone army that would take over the galaxy. But the fact that Yoda went over his head and used the troops was not the plan. The war was started, but at the expense of some credibility of Palps, since the Clones appeared so quickly after his speech.

    The Jedi, through good detective work, uncovered a plot, and before they could investigate properly, they saw that the Clones, although suspicious, were their best chance for survival against the Seperatists.

    However, the Jedi were a bit dumb in that they believed the army was for the Republic, when they knew Sifo Diyas did not order them, and that they were made from Jango who was caught escaping to the planet of the Seperatists.
     
  21. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    What is coincidence, what is planned.

    This is speculation until ROTS comes out (and may still be after), but here's my take:

    The Phantom Menace

    Planned:
    Sidious orchestrates the Trade Federation-Naboo conflict to generate a sympathy vote for himself in the Senate.
    (If Queen Amidala is killed or signs a treaty, she discredits herself as Queen, and Palpy becomes Naboo's most important political figure. Palpatine's power increases as he becomes Chancellor, frees Naboo, becomes a hero, etc.)

    Coincidence:
    The Jedi and Padme escape.


    Planned:
    Palpatine sends Maul after them
    (The Federation has proven they can't handle the Jedi. Palpatine's plan is still to kill Padme/get the treaty signed.)
    Palpatine manipulates Padme to call for the vote of no confidence and he becomes Chancellor.

    Coincidence:
    Queen Amidala returns to Naboo to fight.
    (At this point, Palpatine doesn't care what happens. His goal was to become Chancellor.)

    Planned:
    Palpatine knows the Neimodians are cowards and may fold when the Padme and the Jedi return ("we dare not go against the Jedi"). If they give up, do they reveal Darth Sidious' existence? Therefore, he sends Darth Maul to Naboo to scare the Federation into fighting, have some fun, kill a few Jedi and possibly eliminate Nute Gunray if he looks like he's going to be captured.

    Coincidence:
    Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul.
    Queen Amidala captures the Viceroy.
    Anakin blows up the control ship.

    Attack of the Clones

    Planned:
    Palpatine arranges Nute Gunray to get off with a light sentence because he won't be tempted to risk his life by cutting a deal (i.e. implicating Sidious) with authorities and because he'll be useful later.
    Palpatine recruits a new apprentice, Count Dooku.
    Count Dooku organizes the Separatist movement.
    Palpatine arranges for a clone army.
    Dooku has Jango arrange assassination attempts on Padme in order to ensure Trade Federation cooperation and get rid of his political opposition.
    Jango hires Zam because trying to kill someone is more dangerous than getting someone else to do it, because he's important as the clones' template and instructor, and because he's got a family to think about.
    Palpatine assigns Anakin and Obi-Wan to protect Padme. (They're the only ones Padme will have, and if they fail, Padme's dead and the Jedi look like idiots.)


    Coincidence:
    Jango kills Zam, leaving a clue to find Kamino.
    Obi-Wan finds Kamino and tells Yoda and Mace about the clone army.
    (The Republic was meant to find the army eventually.)
    Obi-Wan finds Genosis and tells Yoda and Mace about the droid army.

    Shmi is kidnapped and tortured.
    Padme falls for Anakin.
    Anakin goes to Tatooine and kills sand people.
    (I don't think Palpatine planned any of this because I think he still sees Anakin as a side project. With or without Anakin, he's going to take over the GFFA and by film's end, he's achieved all his goals. Anakin's own decisions and experiences will send him to the Dark side.)

    Planned:
    The Separatists strike first by attepmting to execute Republic officials.
    Palpatine manipulates a senator to give him emergency powers.
    Palpatine commissions an army.
    The Republic "finds" an army right before they're going to be attacked.
    The war begins.

    Coincidence:
    Mace leads the Jedi to Genosis and a bunch get killed.
    (Palpatine gets very lucky here.)
    Mace kills Jango, eliminating another link to the big man.
    Padme marries Anakin.
     
  22. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    I don't remember any scene where Palps is informed of Anakin's importance.

    There's no specific scene where someone tells Palpatine that Anakin is "the chosen one" or something like that. I assume Anakin becomes well-known after destroying the Trade Federation contol ship. Plus, Palpatine seems to work closely with the Jedi council and would be aware of various Jedi news and new hot shots. As a powerful Force-user himself, he'd recognize Anakin's potential.
     
  23. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    God Forbid you actually have to think nowadays to understand a movie

    Very true, Obi_Frans. There aren't many movies out there that really makes you think between viewings. IMO, this is SW's greatest asset. It allows you to contemplate what actually goes on in the movies for yourself. Then, you return to the movies and a whole new world has opened up, because you understand things you didn't understand before.
    The films live longer this way and we should be grateful to Lucas for enriching the film industry, not spit on him because he gives us a story that we're too damn lazy to bother understanding.
     
  24. Latorski

    Latorski Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2002
    I completely agree. I love the fact that these films keep me thinking about them for years after their initial release. It's why these message boards are so active too.
     
  25. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    I think if there one thing thats plotted perfectly in the PT, its how long and intrical Palpatines' marionette strings are. You have to step back and consider how some of the most minor actions by the protaganists in the PT are manipulated by Palpatine. It really is the deepest thing about the Saga, for people who are looking beyond the f/x. If Luke is a younger Lucas' optimistic alter ego, as he sometimes suggests, then Palpatine/Sidious is without a doubt Georges' older, wiser, more cynical, and I hate to say it, but more ruthless, cunning, control-freak dark side ( no pun intended ) - whether he wants to admit it or not. Charles Schulzs' Peanuts Gang was nothing more than a myriad of his moods and behaviors and the same applies here. Consider some of the valid points of the Lucas bashers and you have the psychological make-up of Palpatine.
     
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