Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

The senate doesn't have to know where the army comes from.

I think it is unrealistic how much it is a non issue in the script.

 

No one asked where it came from then? What sense does that make.
Yoda - "We found an army that was created for the republic"
Senate - "Good! Who did that?"
Yoda - "We did."
Senate - "Now that's initiative!"

unlikely

Well...Lucas intentionally left out this revelation scene in Palpatine's executive room. Why? Because in reality...such an interrogation would realistically take the entire day if he were to pull it off right.

Instead, we cut to the evening. Kenobi has just revealed that in tracking "the bounty hunter of the clone army" to Geonosis, guilds and federations have just made alliances, and their armies are grouping. Then he's attacked! And all of the major players - Jedi, Loyalist Committee, and chancellor - are present.

The theme that Lucas is trying to get across with these movies is that we ought not to give in to fear. Padme battled it and won in TPM. Anakin wrestles with it throughout the PT and eventually loses. Luke battles it in TESB and ROTJ. But that is just what the Loyalist Committee has done - they've given in to fear. Their fearful reaction is leading them into enslavement.

Okay....Yoda has already explained that they have this army for the Republic. Rather than allow the rest of the Senate to hear the who's and why's of this revelation, the commission instead decides to usurp this whole process and cut to the chase: give the chancellor emergency powers and allow him to give the people what they want. An Army.

 

By hiding the fact that they didn't know who ordered the Clones only opens the other can of worms for the Jedi. It implies that the Jedi DID know about it all along, which is even more incriminating.

Absolutely. Which is why I HIGHLY recommend you tune in to a little independent flick called Revenge of the Sith that is coming out next year. This entire mystery will come to a conclusion.

 

Absolutely. Which is why I HIGHLY recommend you tune in to a little independent flick called Revenge of the Sith that is coming out next year. This entire mystery will come to a conclusion.

Yet, Revenge of the Sith can not explain why Yoda apparently just went ahead without concerns for this obvious pitfall. If Yoda would lie based on being seen as weak in the force, why then would he claim responsibility for the creation of the Clones? I think it is because Lucas didn't see some of the inconsistensies in his own script, but I'm open to changing my mind.

 

Okay....this is good.

Let's pretend the first thing Yoda did when he received Kenobi's transmission from Kamino was go straight to the chancellor.

"Chancellor....chancellor. Lend me your ear. We've just received word that one of our Jedi - without approval from the Senate - has secretly ordered a Clone Army. He even went so far as to erase any files associated with this endeavor. This army is ready....and we are told that it is for the Republic."

"What? One of your Jedi ordered an entire army and you don't know anything about it?"

"That's right. In fact, this is very dangerous and disturbing to me. I feel the Dark Side has diminished our powers to actually see our own deceptive actions."

"Well....we should bring this to the MCA commission at once. Follow me."

Even pretending that Palpatine is not being seduced by the Dark Side, how do you think the story would unfold?

Just looking for your opinion....

 

I think they would cooperate to discover the culprit, and that they would order the creation of an army of the republic. Perhaps because of the seperatists, the clones would be dispatched anyway, but at least they would have tried.

However, let me ask you, why is it better for Yoda to say that the Jedi DID know the Clones were being created for the last 10 years?!?

Should that not make their adversaries multiply as much or more than the other option?

 

That's a good question.

I think Yoda failed. Like everyone who is fallible and possessing instinctive human qualities, Yoda was only trying to protect his ass and the entire Order's ass.

He knows that there are dark forces lurking who will pounce at a moment's notice to take them out. (It nearly happened a thousand years before against the Sith.) But he knows they are the good guys.

But he also knows that not everyone will believe him.

Where Yoda failed is that he didn't come fully clean. If he had, he would end up sacrificing the credibility of the Jedi and himself. If he had, the Jedi would have been left on the sidelines no longer given the pedestal of protectors of the Republic. No longer given free reign to continue their spiritual ways without discrimination.

But if he had, at least he would have lived out the rest of his life satisfied that at the most pivotal moment in the Old Republic's history, he remained firm in his honesty....

Ironically, the Sith managed to achieve their revenge anyway. And the fears that Yoda tried to snub, ultimately did come true.

Remember...that at this time....Yoda really has no reason to disbelieve the Kaminoans. Syfo-Dias, with honest and pure intentions, may have indeed usurped the authority of the Jedi Council, erased files knowing the council wouldn't approve, and created this army to aid the limited Jedi Knights struggling to maintain peace in the galaxy. The ends may be honorable, but it certainly makes Yoda look the fool! And if the Republic actually uncovers something even more sinister - whatever it is (ie. Syfo-Dias was in league with Count Dooku, and the army is really designed for the Separatists) that would not help Yoda in the least either!

 

" Those who are willing to give up Liberty for Security deserve neither Liberty nor Security " - Benjamin Franklin

A hard truth learned by the citzenery of the GFFA and a hard truth that we Americans may soon learn. War leads even the wise into actions that WILL be scrutinized when the War is over.

 

Good point.

Even our own US Senate was swept into granting the President the option to use military force solely on the pretense that there was evidence that a bad guy half way across the world had naughty weapons.

Fortunately.....the Sith belong to a myth set in a GFFA.....but Lucas presents us a cautionary tale to say the least.

 

Syfo-Dias was in league with Count Dooku, and the army is really designed for the Separatists) that would not help Yoda in the least either!

Interesting look at it.

Im sure Dooku already in the bad books with the now Emergency Powered Republic, can state this as an allegation - that he was working with the Jedi Council for this clone army for the Separatists

Or maybe this thought of Dooku doing that is redundant. Palpatine probably is more enterprising

 

Actually....I was only presenting possibilities that Yoda most certainly meditated on while squatting on his mushroom chair in his chambers.

He probably played out all of the options several times in his head, but I would surmise that everything came back to this:

"The Republic needs to know their options. That's our duty to the Republic. It is, after all, admitted that the army is for the Republic. Our duty ends there. The Council can solve the rest of the puzzle as it comes. They don't need to know the details unless or until we have something substantial to report."

(But we could have - accidently - stumbled upon a subplot for ROTS. I have no idea. And I don't want to know! I'M SPOILER FREE TILL EPPY III!)

 

I think what you're discussing here is the fall of the Jedi order. Just wait and see....
I'm spoilerfree, BTW.

 

LucasCop, I like the way you think. I'd just like to add that maybe the Jedi DO suspect that the Clone Army was contracted by Dooku (who else could have erased Kamino from the archives; who else do they see Jango running to; et cetera...). Maybe they think: "There's this ready-made Clone Army; they've been told it's for the Republic; they're genetically engineered to be UNQUESTIONINGLY LOYAL." Maybe they think it was just their GOOD LUCK that they found the Clone Army before Dooku could make use of it. What's important is that the Clones will obey whoever they're told to obey without question, and by Obi-Wan's discovery, the Republic has moved into a position where they can take possession of this army immediately.

I believe Jango's Saber Dart WAS an invitation, if a veiled one. It was just hard enough to find out its origens that the Jedi can think that they weren't meant to find out its origens. They can tell themselves, "Hey, Jango made a bad booboo and has led us directly to this army that we weren't supposed to know about." But of course, Palpy orchestrated the whole reveal, and is just laying down a trail of breadcrumbs for the Jedi to follow--mice in a cage.

The fact that Obi-Wan finds the Clone Army gives Palpatine great leverage: It was supposedly a Jedi who contracted the Clone Army; it was a Jedi who found the Clone Army; it was a Jedi who first led the Clone Army into battle; it was the Jedi who commanded the Clones through the conflict; it was a Jedi who led the Seperatist forces; and, I believe the the Jedi's crackdown of the Senate, which Mace mentions at the end of AotC, will lead the Jedi into finding out that Palpatine is Sidious and their attempt to overthrow him. All of this puts Palpatine into a great position. He can say to the people:

"All of our missery of the last three years, all of the death and destruction, has been orchestrated by the Jedi! For all of these years, while we called them protectors, they were trying to destablilize the Republic and overthrow your duly-elected leaders! Only an hour ago, I survived an attempt on my life staged by the Jedi! They are dangerous and they must be destroyed!"

Basically, Palpatine has set the Jedi up so that he can blame them for everything HE has done.

 

" Basically, Palpatine has set the Jedi up so that he can blame them for everything HE has done. "

Thats the best Ive ever heard it put.

 

True
But he's also playing 2 armies against themselves to eliminate the weaker army.

Then he can use the winning army to conquer the galaxy unchallanged

 

I don't believe that Palpatine set up the CIS vs the Republic just to eliminate the weaker army and then use the stronger army to conquer the galaxy. It doesn't make sense.

If he had set it up for the CIS to win then the droid armies would've won. But he couldn't allow the CIS to win at any cost. If he did then as the Supreme Chancellor he would be out of a job. In that case he would have to quietly disappear and reappear as Darth Sidious the true mastermind of the CIS. Then things would've gotten complicated really fast.

The Republic was going to win the war no matter what. Palpy would see to that. And besides the Republic held more territory and was seen as the true governmental power in the galaxy. Not the CIS. I remember a quote from a book that I read a while ago. "Whoever holds Coruscant, holds the galaxy."

No, rather he needed a war to help set up the jedi as the true villians and to take the blame. The CIS and the droid armies were just a means to the end. Just think of them as testing dummies for his clone armies to play with.

 

Only an hour ago, I survived an attempt on my life staged by the Jedi!

This better not be a spoiler. You people are getting sloppy.

 

don't believe that Palpatine set up the CIS vs the Republic just to eliminate the weaker army and then use the stronger army to conquer the galaxy. It doesn't make sense.

Palpatine's aim with the Clone Wars was never to pit two armies against each other, he (like the Republic) wants the CIS defeated because the corporations represent a threat to his plans of ultimate power.

As do the Jedi in fact.

What he's doing is creating a war to destroy his opponents, on the one hand he's going for the total and utter defeat of the Separatists to leave himself and his army a clear path to control the entire galaxy, and on the other hand, he's using the war to severely cripple and put the Jedi Order on the brink of extermination so that when the Clone Wars are over and the Separatists are defeated, he uses that leverage to turn on the traitorous Jedi and exact the revenge thats been 1000 years in the making.

Its a clever concept, one which could have easily gone wrong but because of his powerful insight and meticulous planning of the events and situations, he's made the concept effective in the extreme.

Even his Emergency Powers plan is more for what he has planned later on, but he uses the present conflict to make it seem like these emergency powers were just for the Army creation.
He knows ( and we know) that he's going to use those powers to further increase his own power, declare an Empire where there was a Republic and to get rid of the Jedi, he's just using the present opportunity to catch everyone off guard or cloud their judgment (by using the fear of a Separatist attack).

 

Obi-Wan's message to Yoda and Mace about the Clones was a private message. No one else saw it. Yoda must have told the Senate at some point, because they all knew about the Clones later in the movie.

There are a few ways this can be explained:
A) It only appears that the Senators knew about the Kamino clones, but they didn't. "We need those clones!" refers to the vote in the opening scroll (ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC).

B) Yoda told the senators all about the clone army, abandoning his plan to keep it a secret.

C) Yoda pretended he knew about the Clones for the last 10 years, and told the senate.

All answers are inconsistent with other parts of the movie.

If (C) is true, that's ridiculous writing, and I have no more interest in the political story. The senate is not mad at Yoda for this. That could be explained because they are evil. But then Yoda would HAVE to think it is suspicious they didn't get mad when he told them "hey guys, the Jedi made an army, disregarding the Senate's vote."

And you can't say that the reason they weren't angry was because of the Dooku crisis, because Yoda told them about the Clone army BEFORE they viewed the Obiwan transmission from Geonosis.

 

<<This better not be a spoiler. You people are getting sloppy. >>

Prologue to "Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker" + Mace's resolve to "Keep a better eye on the Senate" + The Jedi purge = my theory; it might be a spoiler, but it was compiled without the help of the 3SAers.

Also, the Clone Wars was orchestrated not only to weaken the Jedi, but to but fear into the people of the Republic. History has warned us many times: don't lay down your rights in a time of crisis, or you'll probably never get they back. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the people of the Republic do. They want security, and buy it from Palpatine at the price of their liberties.

 

The senate is not mad at Yoda for this. That could be explained because they are evil. But then Yoda would HAVE to think it is suspicious they didn't get mad when he told them "hey guys, the Jedi made an army, disregarding the Senate's vote."

But I think you're still missing the point of Yoda's dilemma. The burden of proof lies not with the Loyalist Committee. The burden of proof lies within the Jedi Council. Who cares if the Loyalist Committee trusts the Jedi unconditionally?! That?s precisely how Yoda would and should expect the Senate to react! It's up to Yoda and the council to find out if Syfo-Dias was in fact the origin behind the army. Not the Senate!

After all, the Jedi are there to serve the Republic. They act like the US CIA. When the US went to war in Iraq, the US Congress did not ask for an audit or commission to determine the validity of every piece of evidence provided by the CIA. No, the Congress accepted their findings as fact. When the US Congress granted the president unilateral authority to use military intervention in Iraq, they placed their faith and trust in the work of the intelligence branch of their own government. Immediately ensuing this vote, Secretary of State Colin Powell went to the UN with these same facts as presented by the CIA to get international support. It wasn't until months later in the 9/11 Commission Report, when time was allotted to finally "watch the watchers", when it was found that the CIA had been infected by what they called group think. This attitude was what ultimately was responsible for having an inadvertent effect in "tainting", "biasing", and "skewing" their findings to suggest that evidence was there for years, when in fact, it may not have been.

The same scenario is true in a GFFA when the Loyalist Committee placed their trust in the Jedi. As Yoda would expect, if the Republic can't trust the Jedi with the authority to protect themselves (ie. ordering a clone army to be used to aid the Jedi in protecting the Republic) who then can they trust?

Remember, we weren?t there for Yoda?s big reveal in the chancellor?s quarters. That conversation is completely up to discussion. If you refuse to believe that Yoda is possible of telling a ?lie?, then consider that it is just as likely that he may very well have told them the following ?half truth?:

YODA: Umm?.well?..uhh??..sure we never told you about the army. That?s because we didn?t expect Syfo-Dias to actually go through with his threat. We never authorized it, but he can?t answer to justice anymore ?cause he?s dead now. One of our Jedi, Kenobi, has just received a progress report intended for Syfo-Dias. The army is there. And it?s ready to be used now, so we?re just letting you know?..If you don't want it then we have funds set aside that we'll gladly use to dissolve the militia at once and integrate the soldiers and material into the Republic.

Darth Terrious makes a very valid argument concerning Palpatine?s plans for the Clone War. (A good read.) Jedi_Monk also makes this point:

I'd just like to add that maybe the Jedi DO suspect that the Clone Army was contracted by Dooku (who else could have erased Kamino from the archives; who else do they see Jango running to; et cetera...). Maybe they think: "There's this ready-made Clone Army; they've been told it's for the Republic; they're genetically engineered to be UNQUESTIONINGLY LOYAL." Maybe they think it was just their GOOD LUCK that they found the Clone Army before Dooku could make use of it.

Again....Yoda?s only saving the Jedi Order?s ass at this point to keep the republic from sniffing out what could potentially be a disaster for them. Ultimately, the war did destroy the Order because they played right into the hands of the Sith.

 

We never authorized it, but he can?t answer to justice anymore ?cause he?s dead now. One of our Jedi, Kenobi, has just received a progress report intended for Syfo-Dias. The army is there. And it?s ready to be used now

If Yoda said that, would that not be the same thing as revealing that they are weak with the force? He is admitting that he didn't know the army existed. If they couldn't see it, then "blind they are and multiply their adversaries will." I was going on your belief that Yoda never revealed his inability to know about the army.

I'm just trying to figure this out with you, since you seem to be the most capable collaborator for filling in the blanks.

 

I think it's all a matter of interpretation. Lucas allows the audience to imagine for themselves how far Yoda was willing to hide the truth. He consistently avoids depicting our heroes in a bad light, but leaves their behavior up to our own interpretation. (Take for example, the heroes' inaction to free Shmi, or the blind redemption of Anakin.) He probably does this because he realizes that these stories are principally for kids. As the years progress, the more mature themes can be extracted from the story. It is then that the audience can make more complex judgments on the morality of key characters throughout the story.

YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

One could interpret that Yoda may acknowledge that Syfo-Dias did usurp the council in ordering the clones, but Yoda could differentiate this from being an act of trickery or deception in which the Jedi should have been aware. In fact, he may simply succeed in his defense by stating that because the culprit was dead long ago, there was never a trail by which to follow - Force or no Force powers.

I - personally - don't necessarily prescribe to that theory. But it is plausible for someone who feels that Yoda could not lie. I, on the other hand, feel that Yoda was sticking up for Syfo-Dias, himself, and the Jedi Council. Surely, the Jedi receives funds to be used for their defense budget and planning. Like the CIA, they propose a budget to the Republic. Once the pork is made available to them, it is theirs to use as they wish.

I contend that Yoda admitted that negotiations within the Council may have been in place for years during "these stressful times". For years, it was common knowledge that the Jedi's numbers were limited, and their capacity to maintain order and peace was waning. The results of these internal negotiations may have resulted in some Jedi the opportunity to syphon a portion of that budget toward the development and testing of material and personnel to provide aid if the Republic were to later approve. It wasn't until these recent developments with Kenobi on Kamino, that the Council was made aware that the planning and development was approaching a state of readiness. An army was ready for duty long as the Republic elected to use it. The planning and development was far enough along such that Yoda was in a position of obligation to inform the Loyalist Committe that if the Republic were not to elect to use this army now, then the army would need to be dissolved at once before another entity like the Separatists might find opportunity to use it.

As suggested in AOTC, a significant amount of citizens and legislators were in favor of some sort of militia to support the Jedi. For those who supported the work of the Jedi, yet felt their abilities as keepers of the peace were finite, this initiative shown by the Jedi Order would likely not have been frowned upon. Shocking, yes. Devious, absolutely not. (Until ROTS, that is......)

Of course, we're dealing with the creation of clones - which to the modern world would seem like an act of amorality. But, I have to admit that when I saw the film in the theater for the first time, I was fascinated by the setting Lucas was presenting. This is a GFFA that views the creation and usage of clones as normal, or at the very least, acceptable. I don't think the Jedi Order necessarily approves of cloning human beings, but it was a quick flash of irony that in an effort to hide the Council's failure, they were actually duping the Senate into accepting that their philosophy would permit the usage of clones. How novel! A loyal army - made up of cunning aggressors - without the need to sacrifice the life of the common citizen.

 

without the need to sacrifice the life of the common citizen.

Good work Lucascop2!

What is also interesting is that the Jedi did use themselves as well to lead this clone army, liable for their lives as well.

 

Everything going on is a manifestation of changing times and Palpatine has the foresight to capitilize on it. Yoda doesnt intentionally do anything that isnt righteous or just. He represents thinker's, even though we see that he is also a well trained warrior. And off the subject, if you dont think that Lucas has crafted an incredibly visionary and cautionary tale that is meant to be compared to the real worlds' stifes and woes just look at what happened in Russia today - the power to vote was taken away from the regional governors ( sound familiar? ) and the seeds of autocracy have taken firm root.