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Can Luke's action against the Death Star be compared to Anakin's actions?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by StarWarsFan91, Apr 19, 2011.

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  1. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    Luke chooses not to kill in self-defence. He chooses to kill in retaliation to seeing his mentor killed. He doesn't immediately turn and run the very short distance to safety, as is later proven to be a legitimate enough method for escape. You can't argue successfully that Luke's intent is merely self-defence. Its as much about seeking revenge and finding a sense of justice for Obi-Wan - "Luke, its too late!"
    To compare that to what Anakin does (which you've done before without little success) is to my mind laughable. Had Anakin gone and killed everyone in an unconnected area? Perhaps. But we'll leave this whole analogy in the other thread where it first originated (and where it was aptly addressed) shall we?
    The intent is the same in both cases - to kill those deemed responsible for taking part in, or contributing to a loved one's death.
    Well in part because at that point, Luke holds himself to no higher standards. Anakin is partly distraught because he's holding himself to a higher principle - the Jedi way. He believes he's better than the rage he found, and has been taught it to be wrong. Luke expresses no regret for it because he's just a regular guy, who has yet to achieve a similar sense of morality. In several films, an everyman exacts revenge on those he deems to have done wrong to him. Just because those films might not question the morality of what the character did, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
    Then why continue shooting when he could clearly run sooner? Running is eventually seen to be the wisest method for self-defence. Luke risks capture and death by standing there as he does (for both him and his friends). He does so in seeking revenge against those he deems responsible. There is no other reason for him to stand there so long. He is only risking his life, not preserving it. If he had nowhere to run, you might have a case.
    No no. Again I must question your analogy (all of which I find blinkered to put it politely). In this situation, Luke is more the bank robber as he's trying to escape the situation for fear of imprisonment. So take your analogy and rework it to the point where Luke has a fellow bank-robber friend (Kenobi) who has been killed by chief police officer (Vader), has yelled "No!" whilst getting in his car, only for the police officers assisting the scene to turn and begin firing at the escaping bank-robber, who chooses not to flee but to stand there and shoot as many of the police officers as he can. Do that and pose the same questions again. Regardless of how they were brought together, Luke is the hunted (as would be the bank-robber) and the Empire are both the political authority and the hunters (as would be the police).
     
  2. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    Which I didn't dispute. But the Republic are obliged to bargain/plead for Kenobi's release. In Padme and Anakin, you have two people with just reason to be there, whether invited or not.

    And didn't you imply earlier in relation to Leia in the cell bay, and The Death Star itself, that as long as one was saving the life of somebody else, they were excused in their actions? Kenobi has been sentenced to death. The Geonosians are standing in Anakin and Padme's way of saving him, just as the cell bay guards stood in Luke's way.

    The Geonosians right to treat Kenobi as they wish is the same as The Empire's right to treat Leia the same way. Leia was in fact caught assisting an operation to destroy an Imperial base. Obi-Wan was caught merely trailing somebody to Geonosian territory. Which warrants more a death sentence?
    Oh come on, they don't break in. They push a switch and the unlocked door opens. I hardly think that quantifies breaking and entering.
    Well for a start, you've partially misquoted me there (intentionally or not). My reference to the "creepy music" was tongue in cheek and referenced clearly as such - so its a bit unfair to take that part out of context - it was a joke. Again though, there was no breaking in from Anakin and Padme. You can't prove that those Geonosians were in any sort of private house. Therefore you also can't demonstrate that their reasons for surrounding Anakin and Padme as they did were not sinister.

     
  3. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    Nobody was directly comparing the two acts as such. It was cited to question whether the tag of murderer could be applied to Luke (by the Empire) in the same way the western world applies that tag to those responsible for 9/11 - during which, the only target was not the world trade center, incidentally, but also The Pentagon (a more apt parallel with the DS, considering its status as a military symbol). Admittedly The Pentagon is/was not a deadly weapon of mass-destruction itself, but the US harbors Nuclear Weapons (which are) and I find it highly unlikely that any of those responsible for 9/11, had they taken it upon themselves to destroy any such facility which builds them, would have been excused the murder tag in doing so. Again, its all point-of-view. I'm playing devil's advocate, yes (my position is likely no different to yours) but there is a defence to be made for the Death Star in the same way people defend Nuclear Weapons - that in theory both can be seen as a deterrent and a method for preserving order, i.e. dont dare attack The Empire, look what we're capable of. The problem with The Death Star is that you had a particularly ruthless and one might say heartless man with his finger on the trigger..... which is all it would take in The White House for a similar tragedy such as Alderaan to occur in our own world.
     
  4. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    If Lukes goal is revenge, why doesn't he shot AT Vader, who is just standing there with his guard down?
    Vader was the one who killed Obi-Wan and would be the first person Luke would have shot at. But he did not, instead he just shot AT the troopers who were shooting AT him. Also he shot to close the door.
    so intent is different and the result is VERY different, hence why these two events can not really be compared.

    Well in the SW galaxy there are these things called communication systems, so it would not be that hard for the senate or the jedi council to call the geonosians on an official channel and ask them to release Obi-Wan. Anakin and Padme did not have any kind of ok from the senate or the jedi, in fact they were TOLD to stay out of it. So they are both violating orders as well as Geonosis teritory.

    If you go inside someones house, even if the door is not locked, they have every right to call the cops on you.
    In the US I think this would be called trespass and I think they would be within their rights to shoot you. I think this evens aplies if you are walking over their land. It might be more than trespass if you enter someones house.
    Unlawful entry might be the term.

    It was not a house, it was a military facility and those have even harder ruels than regular homes. If you walk into a military facility in the US, even if you did not break open a lock, you can bet the guards will be on you.
    In any event, Padme told Anakin to follow her lead and that she was not looking to start a war. Well sneaking into a militray facility and killing the guards would not be the best way to achive that. Did Padme and Anakin really think that they would not meet any resitance what so ever? And if they did what was the plan? Kill the guards?
    Finish this later

    Regards
    Nordom

     
  5. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    His guard being down? His lightsaber is still ignited. One can also make the case he has to shoot first the troopers to then get a clear sight of Vader. Regardless, Luke's motive in hanging around is not merely self-defence. Otherwise, he'd just run and join his friends attempting to board the ship.
    Only under orders from Han (who knows more troops will be coming). His initial shots may well be directed at Vader.
    There are?! Gee, thanks for telling me :p
    What makes you think they had such a channel to them? You said, they're a non-republic planet. What makes you think they would even communicate with the Republic?
    Padme isn't violating orders. She isn't told to do anything. Anakin is told to protect her at all costs. Her decision to go to Geonosis doesn't betray any orders. Anakin follows his orders by protecting her on the mission.
    Thats not the point. You said they broke in.
    You're the one who originally compared it to a house.
    It was acceptable enough for Luke and Han in the cell bay was it not? :p
     
  6. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Except that Luke does not START to fire the instant Obi-Wan is killed, he only starts shooting after he has been shot AT several times. Also Luke does NOT try to shot Vader, who was the one who killed Obi-Wan, if his motive was revenge, Vader would be first he would try to shoot.
    I do not deny that Luke was angry and upset, he had been in a few fights quite recently and in most of them he had been forced to run. Now he sees his mentor die and on top of that he gets shot at again. So I can buy that he got angry to the point where he did not want to run anymore, this time he would stay and fight. But that does not mean that he just wanted to kill stromtroopers and if he had killed those five there, that he would then run of to look for moore troopers to kill.

    Atually I was not talking about Luke or Anakin, I was just making a case of a person shooting back when they get shot at.
    Secondly there is a major difference, the bank robber is there by choice, Luke is not. Also the bankrobber is trying to escape with the loot, not just flee for his life. Also if the bakrobbers had come out and the cops imideatly had started shooting at them with no warning or call to lay down their weapons, the situation also changes.

    Actually I was not talking about Anakin at all, I was making a point about your logic.
    Your seem to be arguing that as long as the intent is the same then the result is irrelevant. If a person gets boiling mad and kills 1-2 people in rage it is no different if he killed 15-20 people or 50-60 people or over 200 people.
    Or there is no difference if the people he kills are armed enemy soldiers or helpless babies.
    I am sorry but I do not agree and I doubt most courts would either. In my country a trial has just ended against a man who has raped 15-20 women and it looks that he will gets a very serious sentence. If he had raped just one woman he would be on trial but the punishment would be less severe. Or an article a few days ago about violence in Nigeria, "Woman and children killed in a village" was the opening of the article. So clearly women and children getting killed in a conflict is viewed differently than if it had just been soldiers.

    It is not so much excused but one act might be viewed harsher than others.
    Take the following situation, a person owns an old car who he is very proud of. He has just spent a lot of time polishing it. A neighbour walks by with a wheelbarrow but slips and puts a big dent in the car. The owner gets furious and attacks him and beats him bloody. If instead it had been an eight year old kid with a skateboard that accidently ran into the car and the owner got as mad and beat the kid bloody, do you really think that others would look on these two events the same? A fully grown man savagely beating a small kid? I know for a fact that an adult raping a child is viewed harsher than normal rape in most legal systems and by most people as well. Rapists are not liked by any means but childrapers are despised. If a doctor, cop or teachers abuses their postion of power over the victim that can make the crime harsher. Or if paren
     
  7. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Ah, so you think that Luke's actions is in PART due to self-defence? Also defending oneself and running away are not quite the same thing.

    Vader is looking down on Obi-Wans robes and poke at it with his foot so his guard is down. We do see that Luke has a clear shot AT Vader and yet he stil does not shot AT him, his fire is focused on the troopers that shot AT him.

    Norway is not a part of the EU and yet many countries in the EU communciate with Norway quite often.
    Not being a part of an organization does not automatically mean that you NEVER communicate with that oranization.

    Any particular reason why the geonosisans would not want to communicate with anyone else?
    They are in the buisness of making droids and it certainly makes it easier for their clients to be able to call them instead of having to travel there. Also getting news from the rest of the galaxy is quite a good idea.
    Lastly if the Geonisans have no desire to even talk with the republic, what makes you think they would be interested in talking with a lone senator and a jedi padawan?
    How would they even know that she IS a senator if they have no comm. with the republic? So instead Padme is just a nobody who shows up and tries to arrange a diplomatic solution. Why would the geonisians even bother with her?

    Actually if I remember correctly Anakin is also told to stay where he is and that Mace and the others would deal with Dooku.

    No I originally called it "In AotC they land UNINVITED on Geonosis and break into a military facility."


    Since you do not seem to read what I actually write here it is again;
    "Since their stated goal was to speak with the seps leaders and arrange a "diplomatic solution", breaking in starting killing is not a good way to achive that.
    Or do you think a good way to meet the President and talk is to break into the White House and starting to kill the guards?
    If they had instead said that they were looking to break in and free Obi-Wan then yes them fighting makes sense. So that is one difference between Anakin and Padme vs Han and Luke. They were trying to break in and free Leia violently, Pamde wanted to find a peacefull solution. So Han's and Luke's approach makes sense, Padme's less so. "

    So I viewed them differently is BECAUSE of their stated INTENT, if they were just looking to free Obi-Wan, regardless of the means, then fine no problem. But that is not what they want, Pamde wants a DIPLOMATIC solution. And from that intent their actions make less sense.

    Regards
    Nordom

     
  8. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    How can you tell who he's shooting at? I've watched the scene over many times and the direction of his initial fire cannot be ascertained, nor is it clear with those stormtroopers present whether or not he has a clear shot at Vader. To be firing when he could run speaks only that Luke's motive is about more than seeking self-defence. I guess though, like so many issues, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
    Yet Luke got there as a consequence of his mission to see the Death Star destroyed. As far as The Empire are concerned, he is a criminal trying to escape (much like a bank robber) and he must be stopped. Whether directly or not, Luke's presence on the Death Star is down to the choices he's made (in clearly siding against The Empire) and trying to make his way to Alderaan.
    No, Luke is also trying to escape with the stolen plans for The Death Star (his and the rebellion's loot)
    From a moral standpoint, yes. As far as I'm aware, this is a moral debate, not a legal one. While legally there is a difference between murder and attempted murder, morally I see no difference.
    Its entirely dependent on the circumstances.
    That isnt what I said. Lets suggest for a minute that the soldier in question has done nothing wrong and nothing to incite anyone's rage.... and I kill him... for mere sport. Then lets say I kill a "helpless baby" because I know and I can prove that this baby in question is quite literally The Devil who will grow up to torment the planet. Is the first crime still morally better than the second? You must apply criteria to these things. They do depend on the circumstances. Otherwise you're just making abstract, worthless analogies and assumptions.
    Indeed. But that has no relevance to this discussion. Neither Luke nor Anakin were serial villains intending to rape all those they could. They are two extremely similar characters who are prone to outbursts of rage and act according to that rage (if not the DS, then Luke vs Vader in ROTJ). Some of us are trying to make the case that what Anakin did in AOTC was morally much the same as what Luke did in ANH. If there were only 5 in tusken camp for Anakin to kill and he killed them accordingly, yet 30 available stormtroopers that Luke killed in response to Kenobi's death, would you still make the case that the numbers were relevant? The anger is the same. The impulse is the same. The actions and intent are fundamentally the same. I'm not really criticising either of them - though I do think both actions wrong. You however criticise one and think the other faultless. I disagree with that entirely.
     
  9. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    Norway isn't attempting to go to war with the EU members. You can't assume that The Republic would be able to communicate with the Geonosians any more than I might assume they couldn't. So its moot. We don't know. We can form an argument out of neither. All I was doing was trying to highlight this. You were the one trying to make the case it for how obvious a method it would have been
    Anakin is given two orders - "stay where you are" and "protect the senator at all costs". These contradict each other when Padme (who was given no orders) elects to travel to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan. Either way, Anakin will be violating orders, so to criticise this is unfair. And, its worth noting that Windu says to Anakin, in relation to protecting Padme, that this is his first priority. So Anakin follows the order listed as his first priority.
    Again, as you felt compelled to repeat what you previously posted and feel I ignored, they don't break in. So you can't prove aggressive intent there as you previously tried to. And Padme's desire for a diplomatic solution is not contradicted by Anakin's actions. Anakin is there to "protect the senator at all costs". He then deems the Geonosians to be approaching in a threatening manner. Padme does nothing. Padme is the one with the intent you speak of.
     
  10. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Sorry if this has been posted as I didn't feel like reading through the whole thread, but I just watched ANH and the stormtroopers shot first.

    Luke screamed "No!", the stormtroopers turned around and started shooting. Luke shot back for a few seconds in anger, blasted the door when he came back to his senses and got the hell out of there.

    Not really comparable to slaughtering an entire tribe of Tusken, women and children included, who didn't even know you were there and even when they found out still weren't a threat.
     
  11. JEDI-RISING

    JEDI-RISING Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2005
  12. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Here's where the waters get murky, though. We clearly see the Tuskens running at and attacking Anakin as well. Does that suddenly make his attack on them okay? He had to know that if he made his presence known, then the Tuskens would attack him for being on their land (hence why he snuck into the camp, instead of attempting to bargain for Shmi). Luke is on military base, attempting to break out a political prisoner. Those stormtroopers don't have a lot of choice as to whether to shoot at him or not -- it's their job, and their murderous boss is standing right behind them.

    So, yes, the stormtroopers start shooting at Luke, but here's the problem with his situation: he can leave. All he has to do is take ten steps onto the Falcon, and they can get out of there. Luke knows that the stormtroopers aren't responsible for Obi-Wan's death, so the most they're guilty of is being affiliated with the Empire. But he doesn't care. He doesn't care if they are conscripted or forced into service due to circumstances out of their control. He's angry and he wants revenge, so he shoots and kills them, even though doing so leaves himself wide open as a target and puts his friends in danger because they can't leave without him. Leia and Han are even screaming at him to get on board, but he ignores them to get revenge until Obi-Wan finally speaks to him.

    Like Luke, Anakin was angry and struck out in his rage, and he didn't care who was innocent or guilty (although, in Anakin's case, he had no way of knowing). The two scenes actually play out in a remarkably similar manner. And you can argue that what Anakin did was worse, but he felt remorse over his actions.
     
  13. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    How can Luke simply walk into the Falcon when the stormtroopers are already shooting at him? They gave Luke a reason to shoot back at them because he didn't want himself nor Han and Leia to get killed while they're escaping. As for Anakin, even though his mother died in his arms, he still could've chosen NOT to walk out the tent and massacre all the Tuskens. None of them know that he's inside the tent so he isn't in any real danger. He should've taken his mother's body and snuck out of the village without anyone seeing him but no, he had to be the "Jason Vorhees" of Tatooine.

    In conclusion, Anakin had a choice not to kill but Luke did not.
     
  14. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    What? Han and Leia are already on the Falcon's ramp when the stormtroopers start shooting, they're not in danger -- they're about to get on the ship. The only reason they stop is to shout at Luke that it's too late and that there's nothing he can do and should run. Luke is standing in the open, completely stationary, in the middle of a firefight -- not the best idea if one values their life. If anything, he would be far better protected by actually moving, since it's far more difficult to hit a moving target, and getting some cover in the ship. His actions make no sense. But, then, Luke wasn't thinking logically because he was angry and wanted revenge.

    Of course Anakin could have snuck out. But Luke could have left as well instead of standing there, leaving himself open while delaying his friends' escape. Father and son are more alike than you'd think. They both could have chosen not to kill, but did, as a result of a loved one's death. Luke wasn't cemented to the floor. All he had to do was run ten feet (like Han and Leia did) to board the ship. All he accomplished was foolishly risking his own life.
     
  15. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    First off, Luke didn't want to leave Obi-wan behind. Second, Han and Leia were also aware that Obi-wan was approaching the Falcon as he was fighting Vader which is the real reason why they stopped. Lastly, if Obi-wan had won the duel, they would've waited for him to get onboard the ship. The stormtroopers would try to shoot at him which brings me back to my point about them giving Luke a reason to shoot at them. As long as they were onboard the Death Star, they ARE in danger and if Luke wanted revenge, he would've stayed onboard and ignored Obi-wan's plea for him to leave.

    Father and son are NOTHING alike.

    Anakin was a powerful jedi while Luke didn't have any Jedi training. Again, given the slightest chance that Obi-wan had won his duel against Anakin/Vader, then neither Luke nor Han and Leia would've left him behind. As it is, the stormtroopers didn't give Luke any choice over not killing them after Obi-wan died whereas the Tuskens (as vicious as they were) are no threat to Anakin. He knows that his power alone can annihilate 100 soldiers so he should've showed some self-restraint by not killing the Tuskens.
     
  16. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    I agree with you.
    If Luke wanted revenge then the first person he would have shot is Vader, who was just standing there, with his guard down and poking Obi-Wans robes. Instead, from what we see, Luke only shoots at the troopers who are shooting AT him. Luke got angry to be sure and this anger made him want to stay and fight instead of doing what he had done earlier when faced with troopers, run away. But make no misstake, Luke did not start the shootout, the troppers did, Luke only fired back. Staying had the risk of him getting shot and he could have run yes and he could have gotten shot while doing it. So either option had the risk of him getting shot. Anakin could have left as quietly as he came.

    Anakin walked out of the front door, sword drawn, fully intent on killing. The first two he killed did not even get a chance to draw a weapon. The third charged him yes but did ALL of the Tuskens do that? You do not se much but when Anakin comes out and one Tusken run towards him there is another, seemingly smaller Tusken that runs behind a tent and away from Anakin. And Anakin killed and killed and either could not stop himself or he did not want to stop until every last Tusken was dead.

    In closing, there is some difference between shooting two or three people in self defence and slaughtering an entire village of men, women and children. Note these are Anakins own words here. He uses the terms slaughter and women and children.

    Regards
    Nordom

     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yoda seemed to think they were. So did Beru Lars.

    What we seem to be arguing here is which man was more motivated by revenge, Anakin or Luke. I think they were both motivated by anger and revenge, and it's really too difficult to say who was more motivated. And this is also assuming that either man had options other than these two: revenge, or letting the perpetrators get away scot-free with murder. In our society we actually have more options than this, and therefore it is much more comfortable for us to ruminate over how wrong it is to take revenge.

    If you're (general "you") are going to argue that the Tuskens are somehow less guilty than the stormtroopers, you've lost me there.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    While I get what you guys are saying, I don't see much similarity in these two scenes. The Stormtroopers are all armed military members for a start, whereas Anakin cuts down an entire village indiscriminately. I doubt we are meant to believe that the Stormtroopers and the Tusken villagers are on any kind of same level. Luke composes himself after, Anakin doesn't stop until everyone is dead. The stormtroopers started firing at Luke the moment he made is presence known, the Tuskens didn't even know Anakin was there. Having said that, I would say this is probably closer to the darkside for Luke than any other stage in the movie...
     
  19. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    I'm talking about how much of a threat someone is to you wheather or not you have Jedi powers and a lightsaber. If you do have them, then your enemies are helpless against you (such as the Tuskens are to Anakin) but if you don't have either one, then you have a problem (like Luke does with the stormtroopers). Since Luke is an ordinary guy at the time, he doesn't have any options while his father, Anakin is a full-fledged jedi who knew damn well that a Jedi should never attack nor have revenge but he did both anyway.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Anakin is also a full-fledged human being who had no other options other than allowing the Tuskens to get away scot-free with the brutal torture and murder of an innocent woman. I find the latter concept just as repulsive as some of you find Anakin's actions.

    This conversation has been done at least 9634 times since 2001, with no one changing their minds. Due to that fact, it was against my better judgment to post in this thread at all. That being said, I have noticed that Anakin's Jedi training gets cited a lot, and the disagreement here appears to be whether Jedi are above or somehow better than the average human. Ironically enough, Anakin would agree with you all ("I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this"), but I don't. To me his Jedi training is irrelevant regarding the morality of his actions--the deaths of the women and children were of course wrong, but the men, given what they did to Shmi and those who tried to rescue her--not so much.
     
  21. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    I understand that Luke wanted to wait for Obi-Wan, but once the man is dead there is "nothing [he] can do" to quote Leia's words. That's why Han and Leia go onto the ramp and shout at Luke to "Come on!" and "Hurry up, kid!" Once Obi-Wan is dead, you'll notice that everyone else gets onto the ship, except for Luke. By standing there and shooting at them, he isn't helping his friends get away. The necessary (and right) course of action in this case would be to follow Leia and Han onto the ship so that they can leave. By standing there and shooting at the stormtroopers, Luke isn't helping Leia and Han (who are already inside) -- all he's doing is giving the stormtroopers a clear shot.

    Really? Because I remember both of them killing after a loved one died. Both of them rushed off (against the advice of a Jedi Master -- Mace for Anakin, Yoda/Obi-Wan for Luke) in order to save people they loved. Both of them overestimated their abilities at some point and landed in trouble for it (Luke in Jabba's palace -- "I warn you not to underestimate my powers" and Anakin on Mustafar -- "You underestimate my power!"). They certainly made some similar decisions, from what I've seen. In the end, though, Luke overcame his trials while Anakin did not. I would not say this means they are nothing alike, however.

    Sure, but what happened to Anakin's mother was far worse than what happened to Obi-Wan (tortured to death instead of a single strike) and Anakin's bond with her was far stronger than Luke's bond with Obi-Wan. Seriously, Luke basically met Obi-Wan in ANH, considering he didn't seem to recognize him initially. Because of this, Anakin's reactions are going to be stronger than Luke's -- his emotional attachment is deeper. As for your point about Obi-Wan winning, I agree that no one would have left him behind, but when he died, Han and Leia clearly boarded the Falcon while only Luke stayed back to shoot the stormtroopers in the open. He did not have to kill them -- if he had run onto the Falcon as everyone was screaming at him to, their deaths could have been avoided

    Anakin, of course, was far more powerful than the Tuskens, but like his son, he wanted revenge for the death of a loved one. And, to be honest, yes Anakin lost control by killing the Tuskens, but considering the act that precipitated his actions, it's not hard to see why.

    I don't know about that. The first troopers to go down are clearly standing in front of Vader, so it's difficult to say whether he only wanted to get them, or was trying to gun down Vader.

     
  22. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    When the stormtroopers heard Luke screaming, they opened fire right away. Nobody got onboard because Han was returning fire and few seconds later, so did Luke. He had to tell Luke to blast the control panel on the door before he and Leia retreated to the Falcon so that no other stormtroopers would enter the hanger area. As for the idea that Luke shooting stormtroopers prevents him and his friends from escaping, I disagree because it makes their escape much easier. With the doors blocked off, the tractor beam shut down, and only 2 stormtroopers left standing, there's nothing to block their escape.

    Really? Let me show you the reasons why Anakin and Luke are nothing alike:

    -Anakin didn't stop killing even after his mother died while Luke did.
    -Anakin is incapable of controlling his emotions while Luke was able to control his.
    -Anakin betrays his Jedi mentors by helping the Sith while Luke stayed loyal to the Jedi and stood against the Sith.
    -Anakin lost all his limbs, got burned alive, and winds up in a life-support suit while Luke only lost a hand.
    -Anakin didn't know that he would get Padme killed by joining the Dark Side until it's too late while Luke knew that he'd be getting his friends killed by joining them in their final stand against the Empire. Luke's surrendering to Anakin/Vader ends up saving his friends.
    -Anakin had noone as a visual representation of what he would become if he joined the Sith while Luke had Anakin himself to help him avoid that problem.
    -Anakin had a Sith Lord influencing him his whole life while Luke had 2 Jedi watching over him since his birth.

    I could name more but you get my point.

     
  23. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Although I'm hesitant to bring this up again, I thought you deserved a reply. I apologize for the delay, I've been busy these past few days.

    I took the liberty of finding a video on youtube to reference to make my points a bit clearer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwGBTxZd70&hd=1

    At 7:26, Vader kills Obi-Wan.
    At 7:29, Luke screams "No!" and at 7:30, like you said, the stormtroopers open fire.
    Han opens fire and he and Leia move onto the ramp. Luke continues to stand in the middle of the room and opens fire. Both Han and Leia continue moving onto the ship and at around 7:40, both of them shout "Come on!" or "Luke, come on!" "Luke, it's too late!" Luke does not move. Then Han says, "Blast the door, kid!" which Luke does.
    At 7:52, Han and Leia get onboard the Falcon.
    Luke continues shooting, despite the fact that his friends are now safely on the ship and he is standing in danger. We see him kill one stormtrooper (while his friends are on the Falcon) with an angry look on his face at 7:53. Then, finally, at 7:56, Obi-Wan's voice can be heard prompting Luke to "Run, Luke, run!" and Luke gets on board.

    I think it's interesting to note that Obi-Wan's voice can be heard after we get a close up of Luke killing that stormtrooper in anger after his friends have gotten on board.

    This is the point that I'm trying to get at: Luke only stops when he hears Obi-Wan's voice, even though Han and Leia are on board, even after the blast doors are closed. This, to me, gives the impression that Obi-Wan is what triggers Luke to finally leave. And I doubt individual stormtrooper bolts could hurt the Falcon -- we see many of them hit without leaving so much as a scorch mark.

    I get your point, but I think I may have muddled mine. I have never claimed that Luke and Anakin are exactly alike; they aren't and, in the end, make different choices when it matters most. But they do have similarities. That was all I was trying to prove. They both crave adventure, whine, love their friends, and make bad decisions at times. They aren't wholly dissimilar, which is what you claimed when you said they were "NOTHING" alike.

     
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