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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Can some one tell me the order of Imperial Ranks?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by magneto, Nov 16, 2001.

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  1. magneto

    magneto Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2001
    Can someone tell me the Order of the ranks in the Imperial forces.
     
  2. AdmiralZaarin

    AdmiralZaarin Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2001

    Navy



    Grand Admiral



    High Admiral



    Fleet Admiral



    Admiral



    Vice Admiral



    Rear Admiral



    Commodore



    Line Captain



    Captain



    Commander



    Lieutenant Commander



    First Lieutenant



    Second Lieutenant


    Midshipman/Ensign


    Officer Cadet



    Master Chief Petty Officer

    Chief Petty Officer

    Petty Officer

    Senior Crewman

    Leading Crewman

    Crewman



    Master Sergeant
    Technician

    Staff Sergeant
    Technician

    Sergeant Technician

    Senior Technician

    Leading Technician

    Technician



    Drafted Crewman

    Drafted Technician




    Army



    Grand General



    High General



    Surface General



    General



    Lieutenant General



    Major General



    Brigadier General



    Colonel



    Lieutenant Colonel



    Major



    Captain



    First Lieutenant



    Second Lieutenant


    Warrant Officer


    Officer Cadet



    Master Sergeant

    Staff Sergeant

    Sergeant

    Corporal

    Lance Corporal

    Private



    Master Sergeant
    Technician

    Staff Sergeant
    Technician

    Sergeant Technician

    Corporal Technician

    Lance Corporal Technician

    Private Technician



    Drafted Private

    Drafted Technician




    Starfighter



    Grand Marshal



    High Marshal



    Force Marshal



    Marshal



    Vice Marshal



    Flight General



    Flight Colonel



    Flight Major



    Group Captain



    Wing Commander



    Flight Captain



    Flight Lieutenant



    Flight Lieutenant JG


    Warrant Officer


    Officer Cadet



    Flight Officer

    Flight Sergeant

    Flight Cadet

    Senior Spacecraftman

    Leading Spacecraftman

    Spacecraftman



    Master Sergeant
    Technician

    Staff Sergeant
    Technician

    Sergeant Technician

    Senior Technician

    Leading Technician

    Technician



    Drafted Spacecraftman

    Drafted Technician





    COMPNOR


    General


    Colonel


    Major


    Captain


    First Lieutenant


    Second Lieutenant


    Officer


    Cadet



    Senior Agent

    Leading Agent

    Agent



    Master Sergeant

    Staff Sergeant

    Sergeant

    Corporal

    Lance Corporal

    Private


    Stormtrooper



    General



    Lieutenant General



    Major General



    Brigadier General



    Colonel



    Lieutenant Colonel



    Major



    Captain



    First Lieutenant



    Second Lieutenant



    Field Officer



    Officer Cadet


    Master Sergeant


    Staff Sergeant


    Sergeant


    Corporal


    Lance Corporal


    Private


    Private Heavy
    Weapon Specialist


    Private
    Veteran Trooper


    Law Enforcement:


    Law Officer 1. Class


    Law Officer 2. Class


    Law Officer 3. Class


    Patrol Officer 1. Class


    Patrol Officer 2. Class


    Field Officer 3. Class


    Field Officer


     
  3. magneto

    magneto Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2001
    Thanx Buddy
    but wats higher?
    Moff or Grand Amiral???
     
  4. Knight1192

    Knight1192 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    Difficult to say. I think Grand Admirial should be higher than Moff. But Moff, despite haveing some military authority, tends to be more of a political rank it seems.
     
  5. Fluke_Groundwalker

    Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2001
    Grand Admiral is higher.
     
  6. Ceifer

    Ceifer Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Isn't a Moff a person that runs or controls an entire system or a bunch of systems depending if they are a Moff or a Grand Moff. I think I read about this somewhere. If this is a high political position then how is a Grand Admiral a superior to a Grand Moff. Thats like saying the Attourney General is higher then the President.
     
  7. Fluke_Groundwalker

    Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2001
    He said Moff, not Grand Moff. Major difference there. A Moff only controls a sector, while a Grand Admiral, could in fact, command a large portion of the galaxy, depending on the size of the Empire.

    I hope I'm right, because I don't want to look like an idiot.
     
  8. Ceifer

    Ceifer Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2001
    A Grand Admiral is just a military position. If a Grand Admiral commanded a large portion of the galaxy that would make them very much like a hitler like dictator.
     
  9. Fluke_Groundwalker

    Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2001
    Yes, but it is the highest military power in the navy. This means a Grand Admiral would have thousands upon thousands of ships, troops, etc. under his command. Once again, a Moff is the leader of the army and navy in a prescribed sector, and also the political power. Yes, a Moff could have the advantage, due to that political power. But a Grand Admiral has more military power.

    Once again, hoping I'm right.
     
  10. Knight1192

    Knight1192 Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, US Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet (CinCPac) WWII. Not like he was commanding US Navy and Marine forces in a large area when compared to Hitler dictating nearly an entire continent and portions of another. No, his command was just the largest ocean in the world, which could easily swallow all that Hitler ruled.

    The point is that Grand Admirals could be put in charage of large tracts of the galaxy, though they would be in charge of the military in those areas, not the political situation.
     
  11. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I think the key to this vexed question is that the Empire is ruled directly by the military - or at least, in ANH, the civil administration is abolished, leaving power in the hands of provincial governors who, except in the Mofference in VotF, are always shown as wearing military uniform...

    There are several indications in the EU that a Moff seems to outrank an Admiral - and perhaps rather emphatically so - while a Grand Moff certainly does... but what about a Grand Admiral?

    In VotF and the NJO, the Council of Moffs (or "Mofference") remains the government of the Remnant... in VotF, Admiral Pellaeon, while holding the title of Supreme Commander (the title originally borne by Luke in Dark Empire), is - in spite of holding the rank of Admiral and the position of 'Supreme Commander' - subordinate to the Mofference, if not to the individual Moffs...

    But in the NJO, the roles have been reversed, and the Mofference has become, in practice, an advisory body for Pellaeon... and at the same time, while retaining the title of 'Supreme Commander', and never being addressed as anything other than 'Admiral', Pellaeon has assumed the white uniform of a Grand Admiral.

    This and the assumption of a GA's uniform by others who claim absolute power in the Empire (Isard, Zaarin, Zsinj, Harrsk) seems to show that the GA is associated with some sort of supreme power... Zsinj is the most interesting example... while both Aaron Allston and Dave Wolverton said repeatedly that he was "never formally promoted to Grand Admiral", neither of them ever actually said that he was just wearing the uniform... his status as absolute ruler of a sizeable chunk of the empire, while it is self-assumed, seems to make him a de facto GA, like Pellaeon...

    The only exception I can think of is "Grand Admiral Larm", who seems to have been nominally subordinate to Moff Getelles, who ruled the Antimeridian sector "in the name of the Emperor" in Barbara Hambly's Planet of Twilight... Getelles while ignoring the warlords and the Remnant, had not bothered to promote himself... but his promotion of Larm was probably an irregular 'favour' to a man who, whatever rank Getelles may have given him, was always dependant on the Moff... indeed, Getelles may have been intending to use Larm as a figurehead in his drive into NR space, while remaining the power behind the throne...

    In short... while Moffs and Grand Moffs apparently occupy the most senior positions within the integrated Imperial hierarchy of military and administrative commands, the governorships of Sectors and Oversectors, Grand Admirals, whatever they actually do, outrank them...

    Moving back to the ranks thing... while what Zaarin has said is a relatively reasonable suggestion (is it from the Gamer?) it doesn't segue well with the evidence of either the canon or the EU, and it has a few flaws...

    Firstly, there is no instance that I can think of of an Imperial "Lieutenant-Commander" or "Commander", in the sense in which these titles are used in real-world navies - "Commander" does seem to be a rank among Imperial blackshirts and NR fighter pilots, but it is equivalent to Brigadier or Commodore ('Commander' Dlarit, 'Commander' Convarion', 'Commander' Antilles), and also a generic term for senior officers - often senior officers with over forces from more than one service ('Commander' Kratas, 'Commander' Jerjerrod, 'Commander' Tagge, 'Commander' Skywalker, 'Commander' Thanas)... while the term "Star Captain" - used in the script to describe staff officers aboard the Executor needs to be fitted in somewhere, and, most puzzlingly of all, Soontir Fel became a Starfighter Command Major after he'd been a Navy 'Captain'...

    I'd therefore suggest that the naval ranks should use something like the French/German system:

    Ensign

    Sub-Lieutenant (?)

    Lieutenant

    Captain Lieutenant (?)

    Corvette Captain

    Frigate Captain

    Star Captain

    Line Captain

    Commodore

    Rear-Admiral

    Vice-Admiral
     
  12. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    If by Military Ranks, one means the ranks within the Imperial Military High Command structure, then Grand Admiral and Grand Moff lie outside of this. The rank of "Grand Admiral" is not so much a rank as it is a title. The Imperial Military High Command cannot appoint or promote anyone to the Grand Admiral position, as it is an appointed position only, appointed by the head of the Empire.

    Grand Admiral positions and Grand Moff positions hold a lateral relationship with each other. Both get their authority, power and limits to those directly from the Emperor. Therefore, if circumstances warranted a Grand Moff commanding five Grand Admirals, it will be done. If the circumstances warranted a Grand Admiral commanding five Grand Moffs[/i], it will be done. And, either position is also sub-servient to those who may also hold authority/power directly from he Emperor as well. If in an emergency the Emperor commanded his Emperor's Hand to get across the galaxy as quickly as possible using whatever is available, that Hand can order around even Grand Admirals, even if that Hand may only be a lowly Major, etc.

    This makes for a convoluted system of redundant powers susceptible to back-stabbing and political alliances - just as the Emperor wanted it.
     
  13. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    True, Ghengis... [face_mischief]

    But I do think that the way that both warlords and legitimist post-Endor Imperial leaders made use of the Grand Admiral's uniform suggests that it has connotations of supreme legitimate power - and remember, the role of an Emperor's Hand is limited by the fact that the Emperor's own ability to use the Force is not widely known...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  14. The Tears of Palpatine

    The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2000
    The Imperial Armed Services most likely employ the Anglo-American rank, rate, and rating system, rather than a Franco-Germanic style system.

    The Empire was a cæsarist technocracy under martial law for at least two years after the Battle of Yavin (prior to the reïnstitution of the Imperial Senate, done no later than a few months after the Battle of Hoth; refer to Marvel Comics Star Wars #57: ?Hello, Bespin, Goodbye!?). During this period, Imperial magistrates (moffs and grand moffs) had free reign as chief executives, enjoying direct control over their territories without bureaucratic restrictions.

    It is important to note that whilst Imperial governors are almost invariably depicted as wearing uniforms, this does not mean that governors are military personnel. In fact, the Imperial Sourcebook states that governors are bureaucratic agents, not military or naval personnel; the Technical Journal of the Imperial Forces states that governors? instructions are viewed as ?suggestions? by the Imperial regular armed servicemen, who are free to comply or disobey at their discression.

    This would appear to conflict with various depictions of Imperial colonial administration. For example, in Splinter of the Mind?s Eye, the powerful semihuman Governor Bin Essada threatens Captain-Supervisor Grammel, then offers to promote him to colonel-supervisor. Similarly, in The Truce at Bakura, Governor Nereus is the commander-in-chief of the Imperial military and naval forces present at Bakura. Clearly, these administrators are military and naval servicemen.

    It would appear that after the dissolution of the Imperial Senate, the magistrates were able to appoint military and naval servicemen as governors, tightening the level of martial control over the affairs of the governorships, protectorates, and colonies. Thus, Governors Essada and Nereus et al. probably hold high commissions in the Armed Services independently of their gubernatorial positions, making them military governors rather than bureaucratic governors.

    It is interesting to note that magistrates are actually military officers who double as chief administrators of sectors and oversectors. Thus, the Grand Moff Tarkin outranked both High General Tagge and Rear Admiral Motti, independently of being commanding officer of the DMIBS and being a regional governor.

    Because of this system, a moff outranks a high admiral or a surface marshal. As a grand moff outranks a moff, a grand moff ipso facto outranks a high admiral or a surface marshal. Nevertheless, the magistrates are apart from the High Command, which is the chief executive body of the Armed Services (analogous to the United States Deparment of Defense). In such a fashion, there would be regular servicemen who would be assigned to duty under certain magistrates, and servicemen who would be assigned to duty in ?roving? commands, such as the Death Squadron. The commander-in-chief of the Death Squadron, a fleet admiral, would be able to safely disregard the instructions of the chief administrator of a sector, who, as a moff, theoretically outranks the fleet admiral.

    The position of grand admiral is distinct from both the colonial administration (the magistrates) and the High Command. A grand admiral is appointed by HIM The Emperor as his supreme executor in military and naval affairs, and is possessed of infinite seniority, and is able to command whatever resources he or she deems necessary for the achievement of his or her objective. I.e., if a grand admiral finds it germane to his or her purposes to relieve a grand moff of his or her gubernatorial responsibilities, the grand admiral may do so, the fact that grand moffs are created by HIM The Emperor notwithstanding.

    The ambiguous position of Supreme Commander appears to be Lord Vader?s rank and title, given him in order to ensure that he has sufficient seniority to carry out HIM The Emperor?s will regardless of the circumstances. In this way, Lord Vader was able to give orders to Grand Admiral Thrawn in
     
  15. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Tears, as always a near-exceptional look at the command structure of the Empire.

    And, as always, I take issue with a few - very few of the "mistakes" you've made regarding overlap of Grand Moff and Grand Admiral authority/power. ;) Response is forthcoming.
     
  16. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Tears...

    Well... [face_mischief]

    First, minor quibbles...

    IIRC, Isard's uniform, is explicitly described as being a red GA's uniform... while this is practically no different from a red Imperial uniform with no rank badge, I'd view the choice of phrase as significant (yes, all this is probably unconscious on the part of all the authors, but hey, it works)...

    Was Zaarin a real GA? Isn't he shown wearing a simple Admiral's uniform in those cutscenes set before his revolt?

    And Vader... his position is rather complex... since he was, at once, Supreme Commander, a Warlord, and a Sith... I suspect you're right, though, about Vader's power being based on his closeness to the Emperor... but also, he was apparently subordinate to Tarkin - or certainly, not his superior...

    Now... the meat...

    Is there a sharp distinction between Governors and Moffs, ie between the administration of planets and systems and that of sectors and oversectors?

    The Empire's planetary governors seems to be a varied bunch... a search of the Completely Unofficial SWE reveals that some are representatives of the natives, others are military men (typically, Generals), and others are local figures of influence...

    Below the Governors, however, there are a variety of prefects and sub-prefects... some of them are deputies for Planetary Governors (and in turn, deputies' deputies...), but others are in charge of cities, or less-important planets in systems, or even have autonomous authority as the senior Imperial officers on unimportant planets like Tatooine...

    All in all, though, the relatively consistent use of terminology... sub-prefect, prefect, Moff, Grand Moff... suggests that this is a formal hierarchy... while it might be waived for individual systems where a native Governor is appointed, much like the maharajas of British India's native states... or else for planets like Narg which are essentially private economic concerns... those instances are exceptions...

    On Garqui, the 'Military Prefect' was the Governor's deputy and - given his title - presumably the nominal commander of the forces deployed there: the Military Prefect on Garqui when Corran Horn defected to the NR had been a colonel in the early days of the Empire...

    I just don't buy into the idea that the administration is independant of the military, I'm afraid... while they're clearly not line officers, some evidently have been... and the claims that the military regard their commands as 'suggestions' is flatly contradicted by Tarkin's statement in ANH... the regional governors have direct control of their territories, in contrast to the 'bureacracy', which was a civil organ abolished along with the senate...

    Some prefects are bureaucrats, but since the "bureacracy" of the Old Republic was abolished, I suspect that the Imperial military included its own bureacrats, and/or its members were put into uniform on the abolition of the civil bureacracy - a fact which might explain the incongruity of the situation of the colonial administration... it is an uneasy fusion of an existing system of administrators with military authority and bureacrats abruptly forced into uniform...

    More clear and compelling is the fact that Moffs do undoubtedly have military aides with uniforms and ranks, from "Chief" Bast to Major Tierce by way of Ranulf Trommer...

    So, who appoints all these people? The Moffs? The Grand Moffs? Is an Imperial High Command ever mentioned in the EU? I'd imagine that everything has to be at least vetted by some sort of central authority... but what?

    I honestly don't know that you can rely on the Marvel series to argue that the Senate was restored... especially since the only central authority in the EU is the Mofference... and there's a clear continuity of administration by Moffs with little or no interference from other organs from Tarkin through Jerjerrod, Tavira, Getelles and Disra to Ephraim Saretti...

    There is, in short, n
     
  17. slimybug

    slimybug Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2001
    OK I can break the navy down a lot simpler. It's just ours

    Admiral

    Vice Admiral

    Rear Admiral

    Comodore

    Captain

    Commander

    Lieutenant Commander

    Lieutenant

    Lieutenant Junior Grade

    Ensign

    See, Grand Admiral, Moff, those ar positions and honorations. Youd have to be insane to have someting that big. Youd be dead by the time you reached Captain.
     
  18. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    With respect, Slimybug, there are ranks attested in the canon (Star Captain) and in the EU (Line Captain, High Admiral) which can't be accounted for by simply mapping real-world USN ranks to the GFFA... and there are no Imperial "Lieutenant Commanders" or "Commanders" ever mentioned, while there are some Navy captains who are no higher-ranking than Air Force majors...

    The same problems affect other parts of the Imperial Military and the NR far more acutely...

    However, since the rank systems of SW should IMHO be based on real-world precedent, it makes sense to use a real-world system, closely related to that of the USN and RN, which actually fits much better...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  19. The Tears of Palpatine

    The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2000
    IIRC, Isard's uniform, IIRC, is explicitly described as being a red GA's uniform... while this is practically no different from a red Imperial uniform with no rank badge, I'd view the choice of phrase as significant (yes, all this is probably unconscious on the part of all the authors, but hey, it works)...


    In The Bacta War, Mme Director Isard was described as having ?been given to wearing a uniform similar in cut to that of Imperial Grand Admirals, though hers was colored blood red, not white.? However, it is important to note that, with the exception of the epaulettes and the white colour, an Imperial grand admiral wore the same duty uniform as a regular service officer.

    Mme Director Isard is never described as having worn epaulettes, and all illustrations of her make that same ommission. Her uniform is, therefore, not a red-coloured grand admiral?s uniform, but simply a red-coloured officer?s duty uniform.

    The important detail of the grand admiral?s uniform which was most distinctive was not the epaulettes, but the white colour. This is why HSH The Prince-Admiral?s white-with-red-trim uniform is still suggestive of the same infinite seniority as the white-with-epaulettes uniform of a grand admiral (or, in the cases of the Warlord and Old Fuss and Failure, a grand admiral pretender).

    Was Zaarin a real GA? Isn?t he shown wearing a simple Admiral?s uniform in those cutscenes set before his revolt?


    Grand Admiral Zaarin was a correctly- and legitimately-created de facto and de jure grand admiral. He is described in The Essential Chronology as follows:

    The first grand admiral to fall was Zaarin, when he attempted a coup d?état against the Emperor?just before Endor?and failed.


    Now, then, moving right along.

    And Vader... his position is rather complex... since he was, at once, Supreme Commander, a Warlord, and a Sith... I suspect you're right, though, about Vader's power being based on his closeness to the Emperor... but also, he was apparently subordinate to Tarkin - or certainly, not his superior...


    Lord Vader was apparently simply a special executor before the Battle of Yavin, aboard the Death Star to ?speak for The Emperor,? as the Cloaked Figure put it in TIE Fighter. After the Battle of Yavin, when most of Lord Vader?s most vehement critics and powerful opponents?including Rear Admiral Motti?were probably killed (Admiral Motti was shielded from Lord Vader?s wrath solely by the Grand Moff Tarkin?s good graces, and Governor Tarkin was killed). Another opponent, High General The Hon. Ulric Tagge, survived, but was shortly thereafter blackmailed into submitting to Lord Vader.

    Even as late as the authorisation of the Executor project, members of the Admiralty were opposed to Lord Vader?s high-handed tactics?an indicator as to the freshness of his creation as Supreme Commander. His absolute status in the Armed Services, and thence, all the Empire, was only established shortly after the Battle of Yavin.

    Is there a sharp distinction between Governors and Moffs, ie between the administration of planets and systems and that of sectors and oversectors?


    Yes, there is a somewhat clear distinction between the governors, who are not ipso facto servicemen, and the magistrates, who are all military or naval personnel. For example, Tatooine was administrated by The Hon. Tour Aryon, who was a civilian with no military or naval experience at all. Although Tatooine was the seat of the system?s government, she was apparently represented on Tatooine itself by a prefect, Eugene Talmont.

    Governors are simply agents empowered to oversee the affairs of planetary systems, whilst magistrates are appointed as the political and military & naval executors of massive sectors. A magistrate can simultaneously function as a governor?as the Grand Moff Tarkin doubled as governor of Eriadu.

    It may be advantageous to imagine a formal hierarchy
     
  20. Shedao_Shai

    Shedao_Shai Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 21, 2001
    Someone rank these irregular titles from highest to lowest....
    Grand Moff, Grand Admiral, Grand Vizier, Director of Imperial Intelligence, Emperor's hand, Procurator of Imperial Justice, High Admiral, Director of Imperial Intelligence.

    Whats the difference between Hethrir's and Armand/Ysanne Isards jobs? Are the Isards like the FBI direc and hehlike the aG?
     
  21. Fluke_Groundwalker

    Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2001
    Your people's intelligence frightens me.

    P.S. Were either of my posts even close to being correct?
     
  22. The Tears of Palpatine

    The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2000
    Now, that?s a peculiar question.

    Grand moff is a rank and title awarded to a magistrate appointed by HIM The Emperor to administrate an oversector, consisting of multiple sectors, usually temporarily assembled to ?deal with crises.? They are answerable under ordinary circumstances only to HIM The Emperor or a nominated executor thereof.

    Grand admiral is, as previously described, a rate & rating of infinite seniority. The grand admirals, of whom there were always twelve, were the seniormost officers of the Armed Services, all unparalleled genii of military & naval tactics or strategy (not necessarily both at the same time). They were also appointed directly by HIM The Emperor, and were theoretically subordinate only to him.

    Now, since both these ranks and titles were appointed by Imperial Decree, and were theoretically answerable only to him, it raises the question, who is superior to whom, between grand moff and grand admiral? And what of the theoretical rank of supreme moff?

    Grand moffs and grand admirals, being both commissioners of the Crown, would probably be on equal ground in most circumstances. In strictly political matters, grand admirals would obviously be subordinate to grand moffs; likewise, in strictly military or naval matters, grand moffs would have to defer to grand admirals. In matters that combined both, it would depend on which was acting on direct imperial instructions. If both were, the priority of the instructions would determine seniority, no doubt.

    Grand vizier is a unique title, of which there is only one known bearer, HE Sate Pestage. HE The Grand Vizier seems to be HIM The Emperor?s chief deputy and acts as regent in the latter?s seclusion. He is, it seems, the absolute highest authority in the Empire, short of the Supreme Dark Monarch himself (in preliminary scripts to The Empire Strikes Back, a version of HE The Grand Vizier threatens Lord Vader with impunity).

    Procurator of Justice, it seems, is the title of the chief executioner of the Empire. Lord Hethrir was the Procurator of Justice, and his identity was a carefully guarded secret throughout the Empire; no pictures of his face were ever circulated, nor was his name ever spoken. He was, in effect, a man whose existence was forbidden to discuss, either to confirm or deny.

    Director of Imperial Intelligence is the title of the chief administrative officer of Imperial Intelligence. The relationship of this post to the Ubiqtorate is as yet undetermined; it is likely that the director of Intelligence doubles as the leader of the Ubiqtorate. Apparently, even during the directorates of the Isards, there was a nominated executor (to speak for The Emperor), the former Prophet of the Dark Side and Emperor?s Hand, Blackhole.

    The director of Intelligence possesses considerable, almost unlimited authority within the Empire, as the chief of a major military organ. Given that it is a commissioner of the Crown (i.e., the director of Intelligence is appointed personally by HIM The Emperor), it seems that the director of Intelligence ranks at about the level of grand moffs. Mme Director Isard appears to have assumed the position of Supreme Commander somewhere in the aftermath of the Battle of Endor.

    High admiral is the rate & rating immediately superior to that of admiral of the fleet (fleet admiral). High admirals are the commanders of sector groups (more probably, as most moffs prefer to be the commanders-in-chief of their sector groups, a high admiral would probably be a chief of general staff). It is, in actual fact, a rate & rating inferior to moff, itself inferior to grand moff.

    Emperor?s Hand is not a rank, but a title and position. Depending on the circumstances, an Emperor?s Hand may be able to command considerable resources. However, the Emperor?s Hands are unofficial, and are personal agents of HIM The Emperor, with no de jure status. For this reason, most of the Emperor?s Hands were left without any place in the reorganised Empire post-Endor. Their status in the Empire was dependent solely
     
  23. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    On Power Differential Between Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals (IMO, on of the most interesting aspects which can be discussed): Tears of Palpatine said...
    "A grand admiral is appointed by HIM The Emperor as his supreme executor in military and naval affairs, and is possessed of infinite seniority, and is able to command whatever resources he or she deems necessary for the achievement of his or her objective. I.e., if a grand admiral finds it germane to his or her purposes to relieve a grand moff of his or her gubernatorial responsibilities, the grand admiral may do so, the fact that grand moffs are created by HIM The Emperor notwithstanding."

    That can also exactly be used to describe the Grand Moff within his Priority Sector. That is, a Grand Moff is also appointed by Cos as his supreme executer in all affairs (including military and naval affairs) and is possessed of infinite superiority, and is able to command whatever resources he or she deems necessary for the achievement of his or her objective. I.e., if a Grand Moff finds it germane to his or her purposes to relieve a grand admiral of his or her military responsibilities, the Grand Moff may do so, the fact that grand admirals are created by HIM The Emperor notwithstanding. Now, on a final technical note, the infinite authority of a Grand Moff is documented, whereas your opinion of the grand admiral authority is less so. [face_plain] We know that Grand Moffs are supreme from the following Imperial Sourcebook information:
    "Grand Moffs are therefore given complete freedom to act as they see fit..."

    It is most interesting to explore what would happen under several situations (all without expressed direct consent from the Emperor):
    • Case 1: A Grand Moff Orders A Grand Admiral To Do Something the Grand Admiral Dislikes
    • Case 2: The Emperor Gives Each Grand Admiral And Grand Moff Contradictory Orders


    • And finally, the Emperor favored all of his Grand Moffs just about more than anyone else.

      On the Imperial Military High Command: Of course there exists an Imperial Military High Command. Like the Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals, the Imperial Military High Command is given its authority directly from Palpatine. Therefore, it can also mobilize forces within the confines of the galaxy on its own Emperor-granted accord with few limitations. It is generally because of Imperial Military High Command that the other special positions like Grand Moff and Grand Admiral were created. Imperial Military High Command is a bloated, excessive waste of Imperial resources. There are far more Imperial Military corps HQ's than there are Imperial Military corps. This means that there is a vast abundance of more than pleasant jobs for less than brilliant officers. Realizing that in a crises, units may have to be sent from many parts of a sector, the Empire wanted HQ's in place which could take command of all the parts. This means that for a vast majority of the time, you have bored, inexperienced commanders competing for one another for the right to command forces in a given region. Imperial Military High Command constantly fights the politics inherent in such a command structure. Whereas, with Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals - there is a single voice of authority which must be heeded or death will occur.

      On the Power of the Senate: First, the Senate held tremendous weight in the Empire, even after its dissolution. Senator Simon Greyshade, the executer of the Wheel was a powerful Senator and commanded enough authority in the galaxy to keep the Empire out of the Wheel. I encourage eneryone here to read "The Wheel" arc in Marvel (#18-23), as it has some interesting power-struggles. We have this from Senator Greyshade himself:
      Greyshade: And Senator Greyshade to you [speaking to Imperial Commander Strom, the Empire's Chief Representative in the Sector], Commander. The Emperor may have dissolved that august office, but I still like the title..
     
  24. Kier_Nimmion

    Kier_Nimmion Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000


    Grand moffs and grand admirals, being both commissioners of the Crown, would probably be on equal ground in most circumstances. In strictly political matters, grand admirals would obviously be subordinate to grand moffs; likewise, in strictly military or naval matters, grand moffs would have to defer to grand admirals. In matters that combined both, it would depend on which was acting on direct imperial instructions. If both were, the priority of the instructions would determine seniority, no doubt.

    Grand Moff must be a military command or rank or convey or be able to enforce military doctrine as well as political, else why would Tarkin be in command of the Death Star? Moffs and Grand Moffs were territorial and regional sector governors, as well as de facto military commanders, weren't they? It seems to me that a Grand Moff, while the Governor of a complete sector, would have significant military as well as political clout.
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It is always an Imperial discussion that is the most interesting.

    Grand Moffs are regional heads of oversectors , which are multiple sectors within a given region. The first Grand Moff, Tarkin, was given control of Oversector Outer--or something to that effect-- during a crisis situation. They are the heads of the area, and can control anything within the region with impunity. There has never been a precise cap on the number of Grand Moffs, however many created were up to HIM Emperor Palpatine.

    Grand Admirals are the cream of the crop. They are unparalleled military geniuses and are given orders directly from HIM. They are given roving forces, and can operate anywhere without anyone's authority.

    Technically, a Grand Admiral should be militarily higher, though when in a Grand Moff's oversector, military decorum should insist that the Grand Admiral be subordinate to the Grand Moff, unless on a specific mission or when other circumstances disallow it.

    A Grand Admiral is a much more respected rank due to the fact that only twelve were supposed to exist at any given moment. They were the most brilliant officers in a massive government, while some Grand Moffs were not. Tarkin, for example, was given the title and position of Moff after landing a ship on protestors. Hardly a laudable situation. Grand Admirals, on the other hand, have to have done something extraordinary to earn their titles. Even more so to the late Grand Admiral Thrawn, whom dispite his shortcomings--his plans can be foiled by the most smallest of interferences, though they are the hardest to spot-- made it to a rank that should have been impossible.

    Grand Moff's authorities are limited by their oversectors, while Grand Admirals are independant of any territorial boundaries. A Grand Moff may visit another sector, but may not issue orders to anothe Moff. Decorum insists that the Moff still respect the Grand Moff.

    A good example of this is the first Death Star. The Lord Darth Vader was the Emperor's executor, yet he seemed subordinate to Tarkin because it was his area of control. However, Lord Vader could act independant of Tarkin, as he did when releasing his fighters, or take control if a situation got out of hand, as a Grand Admiral could.

    It would not be possible to compare the two ranks in a direct way, as they are very different, but a Grand Admiral's ability to act without concern for a Grand Moff's wishes--unless given specific authority by HIM--makes the Grand Admiral a superior position.

    I do not belive this "Larm" was ever appointed by Emperor Palpatine.

    Oh, those ranks that Zaarin used came from TF.N's Tech Commentaries.


    And I'm sure one of you has something to say about this. I've always wanted to argue about Imperials with Genghis or Tears. But whenever I got to a thread, it was always over. Speaking of which, didn't Tears leave a while ago? When did you get back?


    -Grand Admiral Jello
     
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