CT Can someone please explain why Episode V is considered the best?

I'm going to say that the cliffhanger overall was and is something I'm still not to keen on Lucas using. TFA had done the exact same ending and it had to catch itself up in TLJ poorly.

This inevitably hurt ROTJ in many cases to bring up some of the plot points that Empire hard coded into itself. Empire is a wonderful film, that is on the same quality as ANH if we are comparing but one thing I prefer in Lucas's film is that they have a beginning middle and end(ANH,AG,THX,TPM etc). That way, it doesn't feel like there is a sense of "being stiffed" in my view. You can still have this cliffhanger feeling like the ending of AOTC without putting yourself into a corner. "Compromising yourself" if you will.

 

I disagree on the cliffhanger and its affect on Jedi. I still think the father son aspect and the fate of Han Solo enriches the story. Certainly theres more emotional weight to the end duel (for me anyway).

Since Empire we've seen the trend of trilogies rise and films try to leave the second part on a cliffhanger, (because of the Empire effect), but its so obviously contrived. I don't feel that way with Empire because it was something fresh and new and unexpected as well.

Did Empire paint Star Wars in to a corner? I don't feel that it did and I don't think Jedi is bogged down or made worse by the points left over from Empire.

 

I can't see how the plot of Empire hurt ROTJ in any way.

 

I think Empire did have some negative effects on Jedi in that

-You can't really have Luke killing his father (probably too dark and merciless) but Vader is also probably too evil to be sympathetic or forgiven. Jedi's solution was to write and portray Vader very differently, including basically retconning the end of the duel (that Vader refused to kill him, which is part of why Luke thinks there's good in him, rather than that, what actually happened, he was going to kill him but Luke was able to escape).
-The Empire and its army was portrayed, thematically if not also literally, as a lot stronger than the Rebels so it would be really hard to end the trilogy with the Rebels believably defeating the Empire. Blow up a Death Star again and killing the Emperor is probably the best solution to at least have closure if not a near-total victory.

 

I never said that Empire needed not to use all the twist it presented. To be clear, I wouldn’t want it to be used the same way again(and it more or less was in TFA which was a mistake that had been made). I adore the movie and glad it set out it’s ideals and stayed true to it.

I’m just not going to agree that what ESB did was fully justified. For instance; The “another” aspect was something I now see sadly doesn’t matter in the end and I suspected it wasn’t going to be fully developed in further movies as we see it with TLJ. Obviously they could retcon the retcon but it’s been said that Leia was the “another” Yet I found the conclusion to it slightly weaker than I would have preferred from my point of view(har har). You could argue it’s indeed the writing of ROTJ that causes its flaws to envelop but Lucas’s decisions in ESB undoubtly caused himself some issues he couldn’t figure out to rectify within the time frame so he had to make those moments at many sequences, “faster” but a lack of intensity.

However...

I firmly believe that ROTJ is possibly near perfect in terms of thematic relevancy, character focus and that oh so beautiful visual “tone poems” structure that lucas tends to use throughout his filmmaking career(THX’s sexual awakening scenes come to mind, including the ending).

The entirety of the slow built up angle of the Father/Son intimacy intertwined with the monumentus yet momentum thrusting 2-way battle while having a very mysterious(but fun adventurous tone) all together really makes ROTJ an incredible ending to a 6 part saga. All the “blemishes” it oddly provides itself with are all I accept and are apart of the fun of it all.

But at the end of the day, Empire did “hard code” itself rather Lucas using his typical “groovy hippy” flowing plot follow ups/ends. This is more evident with all the 5 SW films he either was closer to or directed himself. Hell, all of his films have that to em..

Like Midiclorians really...

 

Yeah, Leia being Luke's sister is pretty flat/annoying but the second film, when it's nearly over, introducing that there is an other good Force hope character is pretty out-of-nowhere, hard to reconcile with the first movie and Empire before that moment and it imposes quite a burden for the third movie to have to deal with in some way, either introduce a whole new character (which would again feel out-of-place but more so) or have some other implausible revelation about one we already know.

You also have a lot of direct complaints that the rescuing Han scene is too removed from the rest of Jedi but Han having to be rescued, even though that seems different from confronting Vader and defeating the Empire, is something that Empire imposed on the followup.

 

Have to a agree Leia, and I think thats down to the writing of Jedi, I'm not sure if its supposed to come off as a great revelation like the father / son reveal in Empire, but it just falls flat in Jedi and is over so quickly that theres no emotional weight to it when Luke finds out.

 

I feel that standing alone on its own, ESB is definitely not the best SW film. BUT, as part of the saga (or even just the OT), it is fantastic. In terms of story arc (action highs vs. lows), plot (the story doesn't really resolve), tone (our heroes are basically suffering/struggling the whole time, with no end in sight) and especially the cliffhanger ending, ESB doesn't really hold up on its own as a film. I definitely think it works better when taken as part of a whole.

 

It is unresolved, emotionally. But the plot is resolved. The Empire are trying to locate and destroy (or recruit) the rebels. The rebels are trying to fend off and then reach safety from the pursuing Empire. By the end of the movie, the rebels (bar one casualty in the main trio ) have escaped their pursuers and have not been destroyed or recruited to the other side.

Films only have to work well on their own, in those terms, if their express purpose is to work in that way. Generally, films are not conceived in order to further develop or to visit, rather than encapsulate an emotional or ideological idea in one go. But generalisations needn't, and arguably shouldn't be applied to what films are supposedly obligated to do. It's always about how you do it. Not what you're "supposed" to be doing.

In terms of a movie that sets up a besieged community trying to avoid persecution and one particular member fighting to try and retain possession of his soul in the process (with an appropriate amount of lingering ambiguity for the future when he ostensibly prevails in that fight) The Empire Strikes Back works handsomely on its own.

But there was Star Wars movie that preceded it, therefore "working on its own" in conventional terms was far from being a priority, never mind an obligation.

 

Never said ESB was "supposed" to stand on its own. It was made-and works perfectly for-exactly what it is and was intended to be: a middle part of a three part story. And I said as much.

 

Sorry @DARTH_BELO But the way you said, "standing alone on its own... it's definitely not best Star Wars movie.." and cited the non-resolution of things, it implied, to me, that for a movie to stand alone on its own, it cannot have unresolved emotion and definitely cannot be considered better than one that does resolve or put a cap on everything it sets up.

 

Fair enough. Perhaps my original post lacked clarity there compared to my thoughts.

But the point I was making in my most recent response post was that although I do feel that way, I understand that ESB is not meant to be viewed that way. I was basically acknowledging that it was made exactly as it was intended to be-part of a three part storyline-and it works perfectly as intended.

For the record, ESB is actually my 2nd favorite SW film (and among my top five favorite single films of all time) so I'm definitely fond of how it was made.

 

Good-o

 

ESB stands on its own, even without being a sequel. The story is that good. The ending is emotional catharsis and pathos personified. You don't need to see any SW before or after to appreciate the inherently beautiful storytelling. There's a reason it is considered the best.

 

I wouldn't expect someone with Hayden Christensen's Anakin from Episode III as their avatar to understand the greatness that is The Empire Strikes Back.

Disney wishes they could make a movie even 1/4 as classic or memorable as this film.

 

Wow, that's pretty unconcealed prequel-bashing here. Is it so unthinkable someone could like prequel Anakin as well as ESB? Why do you need to hate one thing in order to appreciate another? It is very well possible to like ESB without praising its "greatness". To some it's the 100% flawless movie, to others it isn't. We all have different tastes.

 

I have a Hayden Christensen Anakin avatar.

ESB is one of my favorite films, period (whether in the Star Wars saga or not).

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

To understand why TESB is the best, you just have to remember this from the Kirsch, paraphrased from the DVD commentary (because I can't remember it exactly word for word)

"I had to make the audience believe that these were ordinary people, in an extraordinary place, but who have to endure all the same emotions as everybody else. Love, hate, fear, jealousy..."

 

Did you mean Irvin Kershner, the director? And how is this "proof" that ESB is "the best"?

 

I did, I misspelt his surname. It isn't proof, it's just an opinion because I agree with what he was trying to convey, and successfully accomplished to my mind.

 

By the way, I'm pretty sure that line by Kershner is taken almost word for word from Close Encounters. I haven't found it on the web yet however. In that discussion Lacombe has with that military guy (after Neary and Jillian are captured) he says it in French and his interpreter translates "these are ordinary people in extraordinary situations". For that movie it's true too. But the heroes of SW being "ordinary people"? One is a (ex-) smuggler/pirate and owner of the fastest spaceship known, another a Jedi apprentice and last follower of an almost-extinct ancient order or knights, and one a princess and leader of a military resistance movement against a very powerful galaxy-wide dictatorship.... so.... ordinary?

 

I think "ordinary" was meant in the context of them being human and easily accessible for the audience to connect with, even though they live in this most extraordinary universe. They still have the same frailties, fears, emotions etc

 

OK, I get that! Still, exactly how would that aspect of SW raise ESB so far above ANH? How are the characters in the original any less "ordinary" in your sense? If you say ESB is a good movie that's one thing, saying it's "far superior" to the original (or remarks in that vein) quite another, and then that's where I'd like to see some hard proof. Opinion doesn't need proof, but some people (I'm NOT referring to you here) make it sound as if it were unalterable undeniable fact. And this is where things get shaky. Besides, a director praising his own work is possibly not the best criteria a movie's quality should be based on, just saying....

 

That quote I used of Kershner’s was not him praising his own work, but merely commenting on how he approached making the film. I don’t think I have ever seen anybody present their opinion of the movie as “fact” because whether it is the best is of course only subjective. You aren’t going to get hard proof, that’s an odd thing to ask for.

I think Kershner got the most human performances from the cast in TESB.

As a piece of escapist pop-culture, ANH takes some beating, but TESB took it to another level. I can’t explain to you what it is if you don’t see it, and prefer another episode, but TESB is kind of more than the sum of its parts. Story, character development, aesthetic, locations, action sequences, drama...

...everything about it is sublime.

Fact

(lol, joking just my opinion)

 

Sheesh, you really can’t stand Episode III in particular, can you? You managed to bash the OP, the PT, and the ST in one post. Good job.