CT Can someone please explain why Episode V is considered the best?

TFA's script was utterly unimaginative and pathetic. No characters progress in any way shape or form. dont get me started on the plot. bad example to use for your rant.

 

To Qui-Riv-Brid’s point, Lucas (at his best) is a very good “big picture” guy. The problem is that I think Lucas (and alot of his fans) seem to embrace the Ed Wood philosophy: “Filmmaking’s not about the tiny details. It’s about the big picture!” Lucas is absolutely terrible at the tiny details…and that’s where people like Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan excel. I think that what happened on THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is that Lucas outlined the broad strokes and then Kershner and Kasdan filled in the blanks. That’s why it’ll now and forever be the best STAR WARS films. It had the right mix of inspiration (which THE FORCE AWAKENS and ROGUE ONE completely lacked) and skilled craftsmanship (which the prequels completely lacked).

 

Yeah that's exactly what happened Kuro. I agree. George Lucas was/is a brilliant big picture guy, but there are so many working parts into making a movie and nobody can excel at all of them. As a filmmaker, it's important to surround oneself with very talented people who are capable of pushing each other. The earlier films where George was perhaps more humble, and certainly more constrained, were clearly the superior films in the franchise, according to most people. The remaining films, where he perhaps fell victim to hubris, and in any event tried to micromanage too much and eventually surrounded himself with sycophant yes-men, were clearly the ones that suffered in quality as a result.

As you said, the prequels lacked skilled craftsmanship, and The Force Awakens lacked inspiration and vision. Rogue One felt kind of boring to me, and I don't know that I can say it's the best Star Wars movie since the OT, but I can say that it's the least bad.

 

Lucas obviously is both big picture and a details guy at the same time. There is nothing going on to show otherwise.

Everything we know about the way the movies were made in terms of the production of the movies and Lucasfilm as a company shows this through decades of description and observation from people who are around him on a day to day basis. For some reason it's some fans who aren't are the one who say he isn't despite what the evidence is from actual people who worked for him.

The way Lucas makes the movies is basically this. He does the big picture and a plethora of details at the same time then goes through the actual movie-making process whereby that is passed on to the crew he establishes around him and then it's a constant back and forth that goes on for literally years to make one movie. People keep saying "We can't do that." He says "Yes you can." and then they realize that "Yes we can." then he takes their work and reshapes it into something far better than they could ever have imagined.

Lucas is the one who filled in the blanks. Everyone around had blank stares then he clued them in and then they go on, do great work and he pushes them further. When they think "Hey this is great!" Lucas say "It's OK but you can do better" and then points out the fine details that will make the thing they are working on sing. That's why when people were flipping out over ANH he was saying "Well it's 30% of what I wanted." and their minds are boggled because they think it's awesome while he is thinking about what he really wanted to see.

That 4 of the 6 movies were done in 3 years (with ANH and TPM being closer to 5 for the first of the trilogies) is startling considering the amount of work.

TESB is one of six and the only one that IK worked on. LK worked on two but his overall input was far greater on ROTJ than it ever was TESB. So as much as they 2 guys added the fact is that put them in charge of making a sequel to ANH without Lucas and TESB does not exist.

I would point out that in either of their output outside of actually working for Lucasfilm would indicate that movies like TESB were at all the thing that really drew interest from either of them. We can further see in the case of Kasdan with TFA that all he and JJ could come up with was totally on the back of Lucas' own work. What Lucas gave them for VII was seemingly too out there and challenging for them to conceive of doing. So really exactly the same situation for each of George's movies from THX, Graffitti through all the SW movies.

You point out here that TFA (and R1) lack inspiration. I don't think they did. It's just that TFA had the wrong kind of inspiration while I'd say R1 had the right kind.

TFA was a tribute to ANH that was the wrong way to look back. It was done in a fan way recreating the result of the movie as opposed to what actually drove it's creation. R1 was in line with drawing inspiration for the way George made ANH and all the SW movies ie doing something new and different in each movie and pushing technology to open up the storytelling. The difference between Lucas' tepid endorsement of TFA and his actual enthusiasm to Gareth Edwards R1 speaks volumes.

Yet Kasdan was there for TFA co-writing the script. The difference? For TESB he was the co-writer, emphasis on the co part since it wasn't his story, script or movie. Without Lucas all of Kasdan's craftsmanship could not elevate the script or story.

The skilled craftsmanship on the PT was like few ever seen in the history of movies. The amount of day to day details that Lucas had to go over for over 10 years is startling. People used to think that the SW movies were this large epics packed with details of visual and musical storytelling on every level.

Which they were until the prequels came along and now they look like much smaller productions. It's like I've said before. The visual language of EPIC changed with the PT. What Lucas actually saw is now represented by the PT.

Kershner and Marquand, Kasdan, Kurtz, et all were having enough trouble getting their heads around the OT details. The PT ones would totally overwhelm them.

 

According to Kasdan, Lucas provided the “skeleton” (i.e. “the big picture”) and he gave it “flesh and muscle” (“the tiny details”). Kasdan’s skilled craftsmanship took what could’ve been an incredibly boring and mediocre film (THE FORCE AWAKENS) and made it a very enjoyable solid piece of blockbuster entertainment. Nothing great but enjoyable nonetheless. And just watch BODY HEAT if you think that he needs Lucas in order to make a good film. If anything, it’s telling that Kasdan wrote the two best Lucasfilm productions (THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK).

And, frankly, Lucas is pretty damn lucky that the original STAR WARS didn’t turn out the way he envisioned it, because, if it had, people would remember George Lucas, rather than Michael Cimino, as the ultimate example of self-destructive directorial ego and hubris.

And how exactly did the prequels change the visual language of EPIC? I see far more of an influence from THE LORD OF THE RINGS, AVATAR and even SAVING PRIVATE RYAN on most current epics than the prequels.

 

Hi, new here. Be kind.

Whether or not the OP is trolling or not, having just watched all 3 over the last 2 nights with my wife who hadn't seen them in 20 years, I am starting to see his point a little. I always thought Empire was the best (I'm old school and they will always be Star Wars, Empire and Jedi to me), but there are obvious problems with it as a stand alone film.

1. Character development: people claim there is a lot but actually much of it is between IV and V and between V and VI. Like a stage play/musical, things happen between the acts and characters come back changed. That isn't real development. That is the audience filling in the blanks because they notice the characters aren't behaving as they did previously. And to some degree this happened between Hoth and Bespin, during missing time...

2. Missing Time/timeline: it's just too unclear how long things take. It's fodder for endless discussion. It is probable that quite a bit of time passes between the asteroid field and Bespin and not much time between arriving, the Vader reveal, Han being frozen and Luke arriving. It's also obvious that on the Falcon Han and Leia became intimate. Was it a night, a month, six months? But during all that time it seems nothin else was discussed, no plans were made. It's like those bad movie jumps where locations are changed mid sentence. What did the main characters discuss in the mean time? Sports? It was like in all that time Han or Chewy never told Leia anything about Lando other than what we heard them say. How realistic is that? Also, no attempt to communicate with ANYONE seems to have been made during that time. Nor did Han notice Bobba Fett following them...

3. Effects: maybe it's HDTV revealing the wrinkles, but the Hoth battle scene does look poorly composited in places, the stop motion is lacking fluidity, camera tricks are obvious. It was ambitious, but the effects in Star Wars and Jedi are better for the most part. Cloud city is a high point though and reveals what the civilized galaxy is like, making Ep1-3 more believable.

4. The unrewarding ending on the hospital ship. If you end a chapter unresolved, make it a cliffhanger. Add more peril to the Falcon escaping Bespin with Vader in pursuit. Add exposition right before finding Luke about chewy and Lando heading to tattoine, so that as the Falcon runs into an Empirial battle group, they can triumphantly escape when R2 activates warp drive, with the ship shooting directly dead center into space (directly into Jedi), and the credits coming right up with the fanfare music. We can see Luke's new snazzy hand in Jedi. It's more appropriate there anyway.

None of these failings make it a bad film. But they detract from it being the best.

When I was 10 in 1983 I watched all 3 films on the same day. My brother and I saw a Star Wars/Empire double feature at noon and then I saw Jedi for the first time at the theater across the street that night. It is an amazing childhood memory. On that day I thought Jedi was the best. But what did I know, I was 10. When I grew up a little I started to think Empire was better.

33 years later, despite a few too many muppet show moments, I think I've come full circle.

Jedi for the win. Yub nub.

 

Can someone please explain why Episode V is considered the best?

I can't explain why it's widely considered the best, I can only give my own reasons as to it being my favourite and assume that it connects to everyone elses to provide a general consensus.

1. The Dark Over/ Undertones- ANH was the stereotypical stand-alone film that wrapped up the story incase it wasn't picked up for Trilogy completion, but ESB is where you get to the roots of the story, and not all of it is happy or pretty. As other's have mentioned, it's also the first movie where "The Bad Guys" win, which is unique in itself. Most sequels, aside from SW and LOTR, really still give the Good Guys the win in the second film anyway. Having the Empire somewhat triumph in ESB shows realism and struggle, while perfectly setting up the immediate anticipation of ROTJ.

2. The Score- John Williams is a genius in every movie he conducts, but something about ESB realllllly stands out. It's the first time we hear "The Imperial March" and I want to the say the first time we catch a glimpse of "Yoda's Theme." Really, there isn't a second of this movie that isn't beautifully and perfectly complimented by it's musical counterpart.

3. Introduction of Yoda, and Wisdom- Nothing against Obi-Wan/ Old Ben, but he was given the shove prematurely. It was fitting to have him struck down on the DS infront of Luke, and there would really be no other way for him to go that would be so fitting, but it left a gigantic hole in the plot that was needed for Luke's development; a Jedi Master teacher. We got the best with Yoda. The way they wrote him as a crazy Muppet-like kook only to have him transitioning to the wise, patient, Jedi Master Yoda was crafted with genius. Yoda's training scenes truly provide some of the best quotes of the entire Saga. "Do or do not; there is no try." "Size matters not, judge me on my size, do you?" "That is why you fail." Pure writing gold.

4. Han/ Leia's Love- Something that could not be paralleled in the PT, no matter how much I want to get behind Anakin & Padme. Han and Leia had the perfect chemistry, a great balance of annoyance and affection. Then to have their love story come to a hiatus near the end of ESB, and the way it does; heart wrenching. The "I know" scene gets me every time; letting Harrison Ford go with his gut really paid off.

5. The Cave Duel- A scene that has become somewhat underrated with all other foreshadowing moments in every movie, The Cave Duel is still one of my favourites. The beginning of it with Luke being told he will not need his weapons, the only danger, so to speak, is whatever he brings in with him; awesome and deep. Although the duel is short, and anti-climatic by today's lightsaber duel standards, the colour's pop and I'm sure we will all remember the first time Vader walked in wondering if it was real or not. Then to have Luke staring back at his own reflection in the helmet was a great shock, and the two meanings behind it both run very deep as well.

6. The Reveal- Seriously, what movie twist is more quoted (although, more misquoted than not,) than "No, I am your father!" Cinematic history was forever made with that moment. It was no longer just a good vs bad story, it was now a story of redemption with the kind of heart and body stories like MacBeth had. Also paved way for the PT (view that as a pro or con as you will.)

7. "There is another"/ "Leia, hear me."/ Overall ending- To be hinted there could be another "hope" and then have the connection from Luke to Leia as he hangs from the Bespin hangars, there's something that becomes warm every time. This is also simple acting on Carrie Fisher's part, but her face as she hears him just seems so....real for me. Tying their connection at the end was somewhat of the last letter before all the I's were dotted in ROTJ. Then to have the ending shot with Luke in the Med-bay as they both look out sadly to the Rebel fleet, just a great shot with so much silent emotion behind it.

 

I can't really add anything more that hasn't already been said. I will reiterate that the worlds are rich and engaging, the characters develop and have to make tough decisions, the music is top-notch, the lightsaber duel is tense beautifully shot, and we learned more about the nature of the Force.

 

I personally felt the pacing of Empire Strikes Back was the most fluid and entertaining, filled with a variety of locations and characters stories. The movie also housed several of the most iconic Star Wars elements that one thinks of when they think Star Wars today, like Yoda teaching Luke about the force and Darth Vader telling Luke he was his father. The movie also had a slightly darker tone that I prefer. I love me great villains in a film.

 

I fought TESB being the "best" for a long time. I considered the original Star Wars the best up until a year ago, and ROTJ is still my favorite. I was so annoyed by everyone proclaiming TESB to be the objectively best SW film, particularly because sometimes Empire lovers would use that "objectivity" to slight or even outright bash the other films, and I just was blinded by that annoyance. Also when I became a SW fan back in the early 90s Empire just didn't stick with me the way it's predecessor and successor did.

But I watched TESB last year and I finally just got why it has it's acclaim. It's already been rehashed here time and again, so no need to blather on about it's character development, acting, cinematography, the improved effects over the original, it's tone, it's editing, pacing, the fact that it doesn't just rehash it's predecessor, etc.

But, for me, I think the thing that TESB offers, in relation to it's siblings, is actually consistency. Some of the other films have aspects that I feel they nailed better than TESB; I find ANH fresher and more fun, I find ROTS darker, ROTJ is more satisfying, TPM is more visually innovative. But what it does, unlike any other Star Wars film (except maybe now TFA), is that it hits highs, with very little lows. It's, across the board, a consistently well made, well executed, film with very few flaws. I find higher highs in other chapters, but also lower lows.

I think the most consistent, cohesive SW films are ANH, TESB and TFA, with TESB being the best of the lot in this regard.

I do still feel it's overrated. People have moved from calling it the best SW film to the best film of all time. When I see people suggesting that it's equal parts a gritty war film, realistic drama, and sweeping romance, I laugh. It integrates those elements well in a slightly dark film aimed primarily at younger people, but pitting it against real gritty war films, real sweeping romances, and very deep, realistic dramas does it a disservice. It wasn't even designed to take on that kind of weight.

The tauntain always looked bad. It's one of the few things I really, really hoped George would change in the OT and yet, shockingly, he never did. It's a bad effect that stands out more because it's surrounded by great effects, many of which still hold up pretty well today.

 

I agree. That Tauntaun looked like it's from a colorized 50s movie.

 

Ditto, the movie is full of surprises and the mother of all cliffhangers! Yet, I fell in love with the New Hope first.

 

It's weird, but whenever someone tells me they've never seen a SW film, I always recommend ANH over ESB, even though I consider the latter better. ANH is the gateway drug I suppose.

 

TESB doesn't work at all as a stand alone, so that makes sense.

 

TESB is my personal favorite. I think its generally considered the best (at least of I-VI) as it is felt to have the best dialogue/acting, combined with the fewest goofy elements (think Ewoks/Gunguns).

Additionally out of the eight existing movies TESB shows the force at its most magical. So those of us who really like trippy force-stuff like Luke's Cave Vision on Dagobah appreciate those elements as well.

 

I know what you mean. ANH is the very foundation of the franchise. Everything is measured by how many years before or after the Battle of Yavin.

 

I would simply have to say that if you did not see the original trilogy "organically", that is to say you saw Star Wars in 1977, and Empire in '80, and ROTJ in '83, you are probably at somewhat of a disadvantage for having the opinion that ESB (Episode V) is the best. That being said, it still just comes down to preference. It's all subjective.....





(oh, and btw, Empire IS the best!)

 

To much Nostalgia??

 

One does not simply have too much nostalgia.

 

Another basic thing that is so obvious that it gets overlooked is that it`s the one movie that is actually split in terms of the heroes interaction. TPM follows Qu-Gon as the starting point as he pulls Obi-Wan, Jar Jar, Padme and Anakin together. AOTC splits the heroes but Obi-Wan is by himself which is interesting but not as engaging (and he`s a Jedi), ROTS is Anakin centric which also is great while ANH is after the opening segments Luke-centric, ROTJ is again largely Luke and the Leia and Han parts are more event based rather than character.

TESB has the Luke half and the Leia and Han half which is the hero characters changing and interacting.

TFA is somewhat more a mix of TPM and ANH in terms of gathering the heroes but also with the segments for the villain.

TESB works well for that because of ANH being used for the set-up.

Agreed. That is placing too much on one movie. That is more about the entirety of I-VI altogether but as fantasy and myth not gritty or realistic.

 

It is on a pedestal by the revelation of Vader for me the Episode V is the worst movie of The Original Trilogy

The scene of the Millennial Falcon in the space was horrible for me the only thing i like about that movie is Luke's training with Yoda in Dagobah

 

jaqen

I love the jerky motion of both the tauntaun and the AT-ATs. Makes them seem very alien. They're my favorite visual effects in the OT. I'm glad George didn't tamper with that in the SE. I suspect he liked the effect as well.

So no, it's not objectively bad.

 

Will wonders never cease. I've never met anybody who looked back on that and said it was a well executed effect. It takes all kinds I suppose.

 

I've very rarely heard people complain about it. Personal anecdotal evidence, as always, is a pretty useless indicator of more general trends.

In fact, the tauntaun may be my favorite thing in ESB. Especially that first long shot of it running across the snow. It's so alien, and it immediately transports me to another planet.

I'm a sucker for stop-motion, though. Love that look.

 

For me, Vader's relevation is like Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight. It's the most well-known thing about the film and arguably the high point, but far from the only thing that makes the film great.

I personally think that the Dagobah scenes, in particular the one in which Yoda tells Luke about the Force and raises the X-Wing, to be possibly the most transcendent in the saga. But Empire is packed to the gills with other terrific scenes, sequences and character development.

It's still the only Star Wars film that took its predecessors setup and blazed full speed ahead, no returning to planets or reusing story ideas. It made every character better and introduced three classic new ones (Yoda, Lando, Boba Fett...and Lobot, sorry). There have been some very good films since, but Star Wars is still waiting for another one like Empire.

I love those things, too. I just got into a heated and pointless argument with someone recently over different types of effects, but whatever, I love stop-motion.