CT Can someone please explain why Episode V is considered the best?

Playing with form while developing character is what Lucas does.

Empire uses the form set up in ANH with escaping the Empire, setting traps, finding a Jedi Master and training, being foolhardy and going to rescue someone, a personal duel with Vader etc etc. So Empire thematically repeats much of ANH down to 3PO separated from R2 then being grabbed by scrap merchants. Luke gets attacked by Tuskens in the sand and a Wampa in the snow so whether it's Leia being pursued by Vader, Leia saving Luke after he tries to rescue her, R2 saving the day with the Death Star plans or activating the hyperdrive, an escape from a city in space/sky the basics that Lucas uses are there again and again.

The craft that he uses to retell the story and reform it is the real genius part. It seems to be different and it is but it's also the same.

 

Thinking about this more - The Empire Strikes back is IMO the episode with the most attention to detail and perfectionism in it's crafting. There are no scenes where you think "That's the best take they could get?" (which IMO is a problem in some of the other films. There are almost no bad effects shots. (ANH doesn't score badly on this scale either - but Lucas simply didn't have the same kind of resources or effects know how when he was creating ANH......although I will say there's a certain unique energy to ANH that I think is partly born from the struggles to overcome these limitations). Look at Return of the Jedi - yes it has many of the best effects shots in the OT (and in film history) but it also has some of the worst effects work in the OT as well.

I think TESB was Lucas at his most masterful.... and I think Kershner and him were just on the same wavelength and balanced each other perfectly.

 

It is not the "best", period. People may consider it to be whatever they like. It's a pretty good sequel (which I personally liked less than ANH), but certainly not THE best SW movie ever made. Go on all you like how "dark" it is, but's not the very best ultimate SW.

 

Kershner was one of Lucas' old instructors from USC, so think there was a healthy mutual respect between them that helped their working relationship.

I remember hearing a story recently about the window change in the TESB SE. Apparently Kershner was always unhappy with how the corridors of cloud city looked, as the type of VFX available in 1980 did not allow for expansive views of the city. Lucas knew this. When the SEs came out in 1997, Kershner noted the increased presence of Windows on Cloud City and mentioned this to Lucas who relied "It's a present for you." Supposedly Kershner was really pleased.

Spoiler: Windows

image source:http://www.dvdactive.com/editorial/articles/star-wars-the-changes-part-two.html

 

I love how you say "period" as if that settles the discussion. The topic is asking why people feel it is, and reasons are being given. You may disagree, and that's fine, but please don't try to pass off your dissenting opinion as the authority on the subject.

 

Only to sarcastically reflect exactly the same claims made about the movie. That it is objectively the best, period, as I often read. Of course it's a matter of opinion, as with everything else. But there are people who do claim that ESB is objectively the "best" and the PT objectively "sucks" etc. Let's all just state our opinions without speaking for everyone else. And as I said, I like ESB, and think it's a great sequel. I just happen to disagree that it is "perfect" and "the best". I wasn't attacking anyone.

 

This may sound like a strange thing to say and its something thats gets lost when we sometimes look back on 1980 with 21st century eyes, but its almost as if Hollywood didn't know what to do with sequels. If you look throughout the 70's and 80's the majority of sequels to massive hits were more of the same. Yet Empire in terms of its story and structure is almost unique in that respect as it wasn't more of the same, and it also purposely set the scene for a third film with cliffhangers. Were there any other sequels at that time that did that? I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Nowadays its common place, but back then it was groundbreaking. But thats just one of the appeals of the film as it did something unexpected, it seemed almost more adult and it was different. Yet on the flip side of the coin I think one of the reasons why at the time it got some unfavourable reactions goes back to my opening statement, because Hollywood didn't know what to do with sequels and so maybe critics expected a rehashed SW pt 2. Just in the same way that 4 years later the sequel to Raiders was a much more dark affair and got some negative reviews, it wasn't a straight up re-worked version of the original.

I saw Empire once on the big screen when it came out and back then, without the ease of access to films like we have now, it made going to the cinema an experience. So my memories of that one time are so fond and for me when discussing it with my friends it grew in its unanswered questions, mythology, scope, darkness, appeal and every aspect of it with every discussion and us retelling of the story. All purely because we'd only seen it once.

My main method of viewing Empire was a few years later when video rental shopes sprang up everywhere and it made films more accessible. Again it was a great time to be a film fan as home technology started to progress. I can clearly remember those Saturdays with my dad as he gave me one film to pick for the weekend and I always chose either Empire or Raiders. But the point I'm getting at is that Empire had so much in it that one viewing wasn't enough to take it all in, and one of its other strengths is that it grew the SW universe and its characters, which with repeated home video viewings enhanced its appeal the more I watched it, and thats just one of the many reasons why its constantly high in these all time best film lists that we see compiled regularly.

No way did you keep a straight face typing that.

 

TESB wasn't a Hollywood film.

The whole "more adult" thing is an odd one. What is more adult about it? I think many people would find that strange. Sure fans of Star Wars itself might find it more adult but in relation to ANH not in itself.

No way did you keep a straight face typing that.[/quote]

Certainly did.

 

As usual in your desire to obstinate and overly picky you miss the point. I didn't say Empire was a Hollywood film, I said Hollywood didn't seem to not know what to do with sequels apart from in most cases rehash the orignal. And so a film comes along like Empire, a mainstream blockbuster that does something totally unexpected, different and sets a new trend and broke the mould. Thats a positive. Yet I'm wondering if that caught critics off guard, were they expected another Star Wars mk 2 as they were used to in the main a standard Hollywood formula for sequels (that even then weren't as commonplace as they have become since).

Empire was to me a more adult film, (again before you do your usual trick of reading into posts and finding stuff thats not there and going off at a random tangent....... thats not meant as a criticism of the original movie but as a comment on Empire as a standalone film). Of course it can be watched by all ages, but to me its darker in tone, its themes are more adult, its a bit more serious, its building more on the mythology touched on by the original and at times its even a bit more scary. Thats not a strange observation to me.

 

Best I think to concentrate on comments as opposed to the commenter.

Depends I guess. That is generally the case but "Hollywood" had done Godfather Part II already not that the usual machinery had much to do with it.

Many felt it was the same though and many didn't so at the time there was disagreement on what was new or even if what was new was actually good or not or some people missed what was in the first movie.

Again I really wonder what adult is supposed to mean. ROTJ is even more "adult" in many aspects but obviously we know that many focus on the "kiddie" aspects that harken back to ANH or to them make ANH more adult looking in retrospect.

 

Yeah I used Godfather 2 as an example in another Empire thread, apart from that I'm struggling to think of anything that kind of bucked the trend with sequels back in that era.

 

ESB is considered the best because it does all of the following:

- Develops the characters = We get Luke's Jedi training, Han/Leia growing closer, a peak into Vader's past, and various other things. Moments like Han and Leia's growing relationship feel very natural and created some of the series' finest moments.

- We learn more about The Force = What a Jedi can do is greatly expanded here and we are introduced to the true powers of the Force and we experience it just as Luke does. Also, Yoda's speech about the Force is probably my favorite explanation of it (and should have been Frank Oz's Best Supporting Actor Oscar Clip, but that's an argument for another time)

- The drama is heightened = I hate to pick on the prequels again, but did anyone else think it was weird that the bad guys weren't nipping at Padme and Anakin's heels in Episode II? I mean they are the ones on the run and in hiding and no bad guys are after them? At all? Here, the crew of the Falcon is constantly in danger. They almost never get a reprieve, and once you think they've got one, you've got a space worm about to swallow them or Boba Fett tracking their location. They are constantly in danger and its tense all the way through. And it helps that the villains themselves are portrayed as extremely dangerous, particularly Vader. This was the movie that truly established Vader as this universe's icon of evil. His cold malice, the way he dispatches those that fail him with casual dismissiveness...its all so great. And it all comes to a head in a nailbiting climax where the good guys get away with their tails between their legs.

- It the saddest one of the trilogy = I don't want to say darkest, because that's overused. But its just sad to see what happens to all these characters that we've grown to love. Luke loses his hand and gets his heart broken, Leia loses the man she loves, Chewie loses his best friend, 3PO gets blown to bits and spends the second half of the movie as a pile of scrap, and poor Han gets turned into a concrete slab. They just get tortured, but because I'd grown to care for the characters, it resonates a lot more. Them being brought to their lowest point makes their eventual success in ROTJ all the more satisfying. But for those victories to matter, you gotta have them at their lowest point and this was as low as the good guys could go.

- Yoda = Not going to lie, Yoda (specifically original trilogy Yoda) is my favorite Star Wars character ever. Using a puppet to convey the wise and powerful Jedi master could have easily turned into a disaster, but Frank Oz just brings it him life. Honestly, whenever I watch it, I just see Yoda. I don't see a puppet.

- And the action scenes are classic Star Wars so you get the fun space adventure element too. The Battle of Hoth, the chase through the asteroids, and the escape from Cloud City are all great scenes.

- Oh and we also get arguably the greatest twist in movie history, so there's that.

Honestly, I think ESB is the best because it gave us the most. No other Star Wars film quite reached the levels of drama or gave us as much key information and moments as this one did.

 

Two I can think of are the Road Warrior and Aliens (One could say Terminator 2 but I think that's stretching the timeframe out 10+ years)



Speaking for myself - I think of TESB as more adult/serious in it's feel because of the consistent tone. The characters take the situations they are in seriously and there's little to no scenes that break the 4th wall (a very small example of this in another film is Chewie's Tarzan yell from ROTJ). Even the ridiculous space slug is treated as something serious in the film and pretty much works even though it is indeed ridiculous. As others have mentioned the themes and characterizations are more mature as well (and while the tone is less consistent in ROTJ, I think that the themes are also fairly adult in that movie when it comes to the Vader/Luke stuff at least)

 

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Wrong. The Empire Strikes Back didn't introduce Boba Fett. The Star Wars holiday special did.

 

I'm not sure I hear how TESB is the best SW film but I do hear how it is many fans favorite. It is my favorite too.

 

Whilst technically true a one off never to be seen again TV special in one country isn't the thing I would say the majority of fans or casual cinema goers would remember Boba Fett for. But it's a good point that Empire expanded the universe with new characters, worlds and the mythology.

 

This is also incorrect because the Star Wars Holiday Special was broadcast in several different countries and dubbed into many different languages. It was also seen again in certain countries such as Australia which was known to broadcast the special as late as the mid eighties. There was no need to lie.

 

Don't ever call me a liar again. You have a lot to learn about forum etiquette. Fair enough it was broadcast in a few more countries than I realised, a hand full, however were those showings enough for the majority of the people that went to see Empire realise that Boba Fett was already someone who had appeared in a cartoon in a little seen Christmas special? I doubt it. Especially when it was shown only once in most of those places and video recording was in its infancy.

 

I've never seen The Holiday Special, and I imagine I'm not alone in that. So ESB was the de facto introduction for Boba Fett, which is the point that I think AndyLGR was getting at.

The topic is a good question to ask. It's always good to take a step back and analyse why you like or dislike something. Being able to describe the details is good. The arguments in support of ESB have been made already. I'd just reiterate the point that the unexpectedness of the story events made it powerful. I believe ESB might have been the first movie we'd seen where the hero got beaten, it bucked the convention. But it's not just that Luke lost physically, he found out something that forever changed him and thus SW was changed into a story about family. William Goldman has a theory about good writing, basically that the story should be about the most important moment of the character's life. We'd already seen this with Luke in ANH (the murder of his guardians and his adventure from farmboy to hero), and so it was a touch of genius that they managed to find another equally important moment of Luke's life and built a story around that.

From a visual perspective, ESB oozes atmosphere and there's great contrast between all the locations. We always know where we are.

 

Truth be told, I forgot about Boba Fett being in the Holiday Special. Technically sure that's correct, and there was also the legendary rocket-firing-backpack-or-not action figure.

It's kind of like a band records a new song, and somehow it gets leaked in rough form or something, a year ahead of it showing up in finished form on a proper album. Can the album take credit for introducing that song? Not strictly, but when reckoning which of said band's albums are the best, the song could be said to count towards the album that it appears on.

 

While the story events were unexpected I don't think that explains the appeal. TESB has been by far the most re-watchable SW film for me for a very long time (although Rogue One is giving it a run for the money... .THAT 3rd ACT). There's just something so atmospheric about it..... I can quote the film from memory and yet I can still watch it and be entertained (granted I sometimes have movies on in the background while I'm working... but that's basically watching )

 

Hi new poster here. I can answer this. Empire is my favorite movie ever but I respect your opinion. But for me 1. The music. The emotion. Every scene is a classic. Vader dominates the movie as a bad guy. Yoda's training. AT-ATs. Cloud City and Han's sacrifice. I am your father. I am old enough to have seen it in the theater, and that was the biggest movie shock ever. Also you have to understand that no one knew if Han was going to survive or not. Asteroids. The dialogue. So glad to be part of this forum and thanks!